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Post by garry on Dec 13, 2021 17:07:25 GMT
Are people still buying this nonsense? I know I’ve been in the minority here on with my views about covid, but surely people must be seeing that this is getting silly. We now seem to on the path of more lockdowns for something as dangerous as a cold. I’ve played my part re vaccinations in the hope that we’d get back to normal. I’m not doing anything more. I don’t think this will end until the general public stop complying.
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Post by LandieMark on Dec 13, 2021 17:16:47 GMT
I'm inclined to agree. We need to get on with life.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 13, 2021 17:23:57 GMT
I'm with you. It's getting ridiculous now.
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Post by chipbutty on Dec 13, 2021 17:46:25 GMT
Yes, it is beyond ridiculous and I am amazed that the same cohort of doom mongers is causing so much havoc with the same highly questionable data despite all of their projections and protestations since March being completely disconnected from reality.
If the western world proposes to react this way to every mutation then we are absolutely fucked. It would seem there are too many people who like these restrictions and/or are too invested politically to let the world move on from this.
I want to know how the Government and NHS can get away with banging the same drum on capacity when we are now 20 months into this after untold billions have been spunked in the NHS’s general direction.
I also don’t understand why those at low risk from COVID are being pressured to take a vaccine that doesn’t stop the spread, surely only those who should be compelled are those at real risk of hospitalisation ?
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Omicron
Dec 13, 2021 20:34:01 GMT
via mobile
Post by Alex on Dec 13, 2021 20:34:01 GMT
I understand why governments are shifting themselves because they've been using the vaccine programme as a reason for throwing out the other controls (wfh, masks, distancing) on the proviso that as long as you're jabbed it doesn't matter if you become infected but the scientists have thrown into doubt the current vaccines ability to ward off omicron. This makes the get them jabbed then let it rip approach start to look a bit dangerous.
Trouble is the furlough and business support schemes have now all ended and they cannot afford to bring them back in so for businesses losing money through cancelled work its now just tough shit. We've had loads of work drop out just as we've in the final month of our financial year and we're inches away from meeting our annual target. But what can we do. We can't bill customers for work cancelled because of covid without looking like bastards but its tricky to replace the work at such short notice.
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Post by Boxer6 on Dec 13, 2021 20:36:20 GMT
Yes, it is beyond ridiculous and I am amazed that the same cohort of doom mongers is causing so much havoc with the same highly questionable data despite all of their projections and protestations since March being completely disconnected from reality. If the western world proposes to react this way to every mutation then we are absolutely fucked. It would seem there are too many people who like these restrictions and/or are too invested politically to let the world move on from this. I want to know how the Government and NHS can get away with banging the same drum on capacity when we are now 20 months into this after untold billions have been spunked in the NHS’s general direction. I also don’t understand why those at low risk from COVID are being pressured to take a vaccine that doesn’t stop the spread, surely only those who should be compelled are those at real risk of hospitalisation ? I can only venture a guess re this element. First part because it's the government, and this shower in particular are essentially bullet poroof whatever cuntery they get up to. So far at least.
Secondly, however many billions may or not be spunked into the NHS general direction" (and how much of that went to 'friends of Boris') capacity is dependent most of all on people. Nurses. And they're leaving the job in droves every day. If I could affoprd to, I would too.
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Omicron
Dec 13, 2021 20:55:23 GMT
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Post by PetrolEd on Dec 13, 2021 20:55:23 GMT
I like to think the vaccinations have helped but for Javid to come out and tell people who have had 2 AZ’s already they have zero protection is a little off. I don’t agree that covid is just a cold as I’m sure we all know someone who has died or been seriously affected by the virus and not just old folk.
Having said all that we need to carry on, business as normal and people in shops, in offices, in restaurants and pubs and generally going about their lives without disruption. The British public has done there part, the government need to manage the situation without destroying the economy.
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Omicron
Dec 13, 2021 21:21:51 GMT
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 13, 2021 21:21:51 GMT
This has ended up panning out towards the much vaunted herd immunity. People are carrying the virus with no symptoms, some are getting mild symptoms, some are getting slightly poorly, some are knocked out by it and a very small number are dying. If reports that the current version is more virulent in spread but less fatal due to vaccination and controls means it’s tending towards a very unpleasant winter virus. If, as proposed, we are to expect annual vaccination in line with flu jab etiquette then there is no reason to be in the funk being whipped up currently.
I still take care but not locking myself in and using any of my stockpiled loo rolls, pasta, ketchup - I’m keeping those for the Russian advance after they attack Ukraine.
BTW: no ‘n’ in the middle of omicron. Letter of the Greek alphabet and all that…,,
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Post by chipbutty on Dec 13, 2021 21:23:18 GMT
I agree and understand, it’s frustrating that in and amongst all of wild in the aisle craziness, the following hasn’t been done.
Pay increases/alignment for front line staff Creation/introduction of world class nurse and doctor training programmes to build skill and capacity for the future Pay incentives to get recently retired or recently transferred staff back into service Etc Etc Etc
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 13, 2021 22:01:49 GMT
We don't have enough doctors or hospitals in the UK at the best of times, full stop.
As to the virus, my brother (who is a supply teacher) had his booster last Saturday, 4th. This past Saturday (11th) he's tested positive and is now self-isolating but with no symptoms. He almost certainly picked it up at one of the schools he was working at, to cover for permanent staff who were off with covid themselves......
Just hope he stays symptom-free, shows that even being triple-jabbed does not stop you getting it, but should stop it giving you health issues
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Post by Blarno on Dec 14, 2021 9:58:51 GMT
Business as usual for me. I can't work from home, so off I go every day. Had all 3 jabs now and no ill effects. I had Covid at the start of October and it was nothing like having a cold - I only had mild drowsiness for a day or two, then lack of taste/smell for a few days. (I'm a tough nut to crack though, very little makes me feel ill). If I hadn't been forced to be off work, I would have carried on. Need me to wear a mask in shops? Fine with me. I hate shops anyway, so any excuse to spend even less time in them, the better. I quite like being able to mouth obscenities at people who get in my way.
I still can't believe that some people still think it's a global conspiracy to control population. The sheer notion of every government agreeing and colluding is beyond the pale. There is no microchip, your government has no need to track you because you are simply not interesting.
Also, most people are surgically attached to a device that tracks their every move anyway.
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Post by alf on Dec 14, 2021 11:06:21 GMT
Sounds like I'm more concerned than most here - the quoted % effectiveness of the vaccines had been very strong against previous variants, to hear that AZ is pretty useless against Omicron (when against previous variants it had been shown to decline in performance more slowly than the mRNA vaccines) - and that at best (3xmRNA) you have about 75% cover is a bit of a blow. I guess part of the UK's panic is the fact we are generally jabbed with AZ, longer ago, than other nations, I can understand the focus on getting needles into arms again - indeed my first mRNA jab is this afternoon.
The other arguments (not those about contrails and government control and 5G and aliens running the planet and the other stuff I'm generally unfollowing on Facebook) are up for debate. There has always been a balance between economic damage and people's lives, even a milder variant has the potential to clog up hospitals (which kills people indirectly) and to kill a lot of people directly, because we have a lot of old people and those with long term conditions. A lot of the people whining about controls have contributed to the overall danger - and the need for controls - by being unhealthy through choice. I have no special desire to catch it myself having seen what it has done to even some very fit friends, who are shadows of their former selves 18 months later, long COVID is no joke. I get annoyed at people cracking on like nothing is happening, in pubs and so on, a little self control while still living a mostly full life is not that difficult, without running about hugging people, shouting indoors with no mask, doing cretinous things like taking your mask off indoors to speak on a bloody phone, and so on. Also regardless of how much is "open", a lot of people - like me - will not be doing as much as before in terms of eating/drinking out, going to the gym, and so on, though choice - that's not the regulators fault. That's my own choice having weighed up the available evidence.
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Post by garry on Dec 14, 2021 11:18:53 GMT
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Post by franki68 on Dec 14, 2021 11:28:19 GMT
Well I coughed up some coffee this morning as the Minister on breakfast tv confirmed so far there has been 1 death and a whopping 6 hospitalizations due to this variant.
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Post by garry on Dec 14, 2021 11:31:49 GMT
Well I coughed up some coffee this morning as the Minister on breakfast tv confirmed so far there has been 1 death and a whopping 6 hospitalizations due to this variant. Let’s be accurate one person has died with the variant. No details of age, other conditions, why they were hospitalised, but I think it’s fair to say if that one person was a fit 40 something with no pre conditions we’d be told.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 14, 2021 11:36:52 GMT
Well I coughed up some coffee this morning as the Minister on breakfast tv confirmed so far there has been 1 death and a whopping 6 hospitalizations due to this variant.
W2.1 laughed out loud at that "news". More people had heart failure straining to take a shit than that today.
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Omicron
Dec 14, 2021 12:51:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by Alex on Dec 14, 2021 12:51:26 GMT
That is what is annoying about the ongoing Covid statistics is that they are not really being put in context. Currently they're sitting at about 1000 people a week in the UK dieing with covid. In isolation that is pretty damn bad and makes lockdown seem the only way to go.
But in just the couple of minutes I've been thinking about writing this I've been able to check UK deaths from Heart disease and found its about 3000 a week. But yet no ones banned pork pies? Cancer is currently killing 10000 people a week.
OK that is information very quickly nicked from Google but the point is that Covid is not our biggest killer and so we are at some point going to have to stop trying to scare the shit out of everyone. I do take covid seriously, I'm not some nutter who thinks it's a complex global conspiracy concocted by a load of world governments who have somehow come together to plan a fake disease but yet can't agree whether a sausage should be allowed to cross the Irish sea. I'm triple jabbed and I've taken lateral flow tests before gathering for Xmas parties over the last couple of weeks but I've still gone and I've still enjoyed myself. Working in health and safety I appreciate that there are some risks to how we live our lives but at some point you do have to start actually living those lives in as safe a manner as you can but accepting that you cannot ever eliminate all risk. You can enjoy yourself without being reckless.
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Post by Martin on Dec 14, 2021 13:00:28 GMT
That is what is annoying about the ongoing Covid statistics is that they are not really being put in context. Currently they're sitting at about 1000 people a week in the UK dieing with covid. In isolation that is pretty damn bad and makes lockdown seem the only way to go. But in just the couple of minutes I've been thinking about writing this I've been able to check UK deaths from Heart disease and found its about 3000 a week. But yet no ones banned pork pies? Cancer is currently killing 10000 people a week. OK that is information very quickly nicked from Google but the point is that Covid is not our biggest killer and so we are at some point going to have to stop trying to scare the shit out of everyone. I do take covid seriously, I'm not some nutter who thinks it's a complex global conspiracy concocted by a load of world governments who have somehow come together to plan a fake disease but yet can't agree whether a sausage should be allowed to cross the Irish sea. I'm triple jabbed and I've taken lateral flow tests before gathering for Xmas parties over the last couple of weeks but I've still gone and I've still enjoyed myself. Working in health and safety I appreciate that there are some risks to how we live our lives but at some point you do have to start actually living those lives in as safe a manner as you can but accepting that you cannot ever eliminate all risk. You can enjoy yourself without being reckless. Is Covid killing 1,000 people a week, or are they people who would be part of next weeks/months Heart Disease (and others) statistics and what's happening with flu deaths YOY?
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Post by Martin on Dec 14, 2021 13:02:33 GMT
Sounds like I'm more concerned than most here - the quoted % effectiveness of the vaccines had been very strong against previous variants, to hear that AZ is pretty useless against Omicron (when against previous variants it had been shown to decline in performance more slowly than the mRNA vaccines) - and that at best (3xmRNA) you have about 75% cover is a bit of a blow. I guess part of the UK's panic is the fact we are generally jabbed with AZ, longer ago, than other nations, I can understand the focus on getting needles into arms again - indeed my first mRNA jab is this afternoon. The other arguments (not those about contrails and government control and 5G and aliens running the planet and the other stuff I'm generally unfollowing on Facebook) are up for debate. There has always been a balance between economic damage and people's lives, even a milder variant has the potential to clog up hospitals (which kills people indirectly) and to kill a lot of people directly, because we have a lot of old people and those with long term conditions. A lot of the people whining about controls have contributed to the overall danger - and the need for controls - by being unhealthy through choice. I have no special desire to catch it myself having seen what it has done to even some very fit friends, who are shadows of their former selves 18 months later, long COVID is no joke. I get annoyed at people cracking on like nothing is happening, in pubs and so on, a little self control while still living a mostly full life is not that difficult, without running about hugging people, shouting indoors with no mask, doing cretinous things like taking your mask off indoors to speak on a bloody phone, and so on. Also regardless of how much is "open", a lot of people - like me - will not be doing as much as before in terms of eating/drinking out, going to the gym, and so on, though choice - that's not the regulators fault. That's my own choice having weighed up the available evidence. Isn't it only useless at preventing you getting the Omicron variant, but still effective at reducing the effect and keeping you out of hospital?
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Post by johnc on Dec 14, 2021 13:16:37 GMT
I think the carefully worded "today x people died who have tested positive for covid in the past 30 days" tells it all. They could have died of cancer, heart attack, stroke or many other ailments. The covid bit may be as inconsequential as having an ingrown toenail!
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Post by Martin on Dec 14, 2021 13:39:23 GMT
When you dig into the Data, they do separate COVID mentioned on the death certificate and when it was listed as the main cause of death, although that still doesn't tell the whole story.
Looking at the stats, you are still more than twice as likely to die from Flu/pneumonia (over the last 6 weeks) than you are from COVID and it was three times more likely in the summer. The impact of vaccinations maybe, as there were 50% COVID deaths in Jan/Feb this year?
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Omicron
Dec 14, 2021 13:42:28 GMT
via mobile
Post by Alex on Dec 14, 2021 13:42:28 GMT
I did say dieing with covid not of covid because that is the stat. Its hovering around the 120-160 people a day figure and has been since the summer more or less. And you are right about digging into the data. But the general public do not get that breakdown of data, its just the basic figures for covid deaths with daily deaths from other causes not being announced on the daily news bulletin.
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Post by garry on Dec 14, 2021 13:49:37 GMT
This is the graph from the BMJ. You have to step all the way back to 2008 to find a higher death rate. And then every year before. In short, it ain’t that scary or deadly
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Post by Martin on Dec 14, 2021 13:57:10 GMT
I did say dieing with covid not of covid because that is the stat. Its hovering around the 120-160 people a day figure and has been since the summer more or less. And you are right about digging into the data. But the general public do not get that breakdown of data, its just the basic figures for covid deaths with daily deaths from other causes not being announced on the daily news bulletin.That's one of the main points of this thread, the public get given information/data which is only part of the story and misleading as a result.
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Post by Martin on Dec 14, 2021 13:57:50 GMT
<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> This is the graph from the BMJ. You have to step all the way back to 2008 to find a higher death rate. And then every year before. In short, it ain’t that scary or deadly And 2020 was pre vaccine, so its even less scary/deadly now.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 14, 2021 14:12:43 GMT
That's one of the main points of this thread, the public get given information/data which is only part of the story and misleading as a result. That's the problem with the general public across the world. Mainly too lazy to find the wider picture or more detailed information so just accept what's fed to us. The whole electric car thing (this is a car forum ) is sold on emissions only and not the effects of mining, extracting, refining, and disposal of rare metals. Still no one mentions that all of us breathing, needing to eat, farting and shitting is the biggest threat to ourselves in the face of medical knowledge that offers great changes of survival to adulthood which should lead to a loss of requirement to have lots of children each. (I appreciate I need to be culled on that basis.)
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Omicron
Dec 14, 2021 14:24:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by Alex on Dec 14, 2021 14:24:52 GMT
The electric car issue is another where more information needs to be given on real emissions from the manufacturing of the vehicle and generating the power to charge it. One area though that EVs do get a bad press for is cobalt being mined for batteries. The batteries in EV cars make up barely 10% of global Li-ion battery usage (most of the rest is in mobile devices) and most manufacturers are developing low or zero cobalt batteries (I believe the Tesla model 3 is almost zero cobalt) but its the mining of cobalt that is being used as a big stick to beat EVs with. This is despite any cobalt that is used in batteries can be recycled unlike the even vaster quantities of cobalt used as a catalyst in the refining of petrol and low sulphur diesel!
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Omicron
Dec 14, 2021 14:29:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by bryan on Dec 14, 2021 14:29:14 GMT
I check the stats daily and my observations are
We are massive testers (c1m a day Vs a lot lower in many other euro countries) our positive test rate is under c5%, but the numbers sounds big...
Death rate has been static at under c125 a day and in many cases a lot lower
Hospitalisations are again relatively static at under 1000 ICU
So the vaccine is clearly doings its job, and the latest hoohah is to get every boosters.....just a shame they didn't get the logistics in place first....but it saves endless arguments over the course of action
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Post by Tim on Dec 14, 2021 16:24:44 GMT
.....and the latest hoohah is to get everyone looking away from Boris Johnson and his apparent inability to tell the truth about things. Fixed that for you
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Post by alf on Dec 14, 2021 16:27:41 GMT
I just got a Moderna in the right arm and a flu jab in the left (as an asthmatic, but slim, fit and not that old, flu is actually more of a risk to me) since writing the above. I may be feeling interesting later!
However much people may want to just fully let rip and lick strangers and stuff, the current numbers of hospitalisations - and the likely winter trend (given the NHS is ruined most winters by flu alone) is enough to warrant some ongoing controls, I feel.
Also I have no interest in what South Africa has to say about it, they are a corrupt single party state in the third world, with a very young population leading hard lives compared to us - and massively fewer older/fatter/less well people with chronic conditions being kept alive by modern medicine. It's just not a useful comparison.
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