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Post by chipbutty on Dec 14, 2021 16:52:48 GMT
For how long do you think you will continue this way ? At what point do you go back to normal ?
You need to explain the importance of the mask because I still haven’t found anyone who can provide a convincing answer as to how they make the slightest difference. With or without a mask, the entire contents of my lungs will be forced into the air - the cotton mask does absolutely jack shit, it doesn’t filter my breath and capture the nasties and it doesn’t neutralise them in any way.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 14, 2021 17:18:39 GMT
I just got a Moderna in the right arm and a flu jab in the left (as an asthmatic, but slim, fit and not that old, flu is actually more of a risk to me) since writing the above. I may be feeling interesting later! I had both at the same time and, as per the other things that happen to me over time, nothing happened to me. At present my sciatica is so painful that no amount of anything would bother me.
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Post by garry on Dec 14, 2021 17:30:34 GMT
I just got a Moderna in the right arm and a flu jab in the left (as an asthmatic, but slim, fit and not that old, flu is actually more of a risk to me) since writing the above. I may be feeling interesting later! I had both at the same time and, as per the other things that happen to me over time, nothing happened to me. At present my sciatica is so painful that no amount of anything would bother me.You need Pilates!
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Omicron
Dec 14, 2021 17:56:37 GMT
via mobile
Post by Roadrunner on Dec 14, 2021 17:56:37 GMT
For how long do you think you will continue this way ? At what point do you go back to normal ? You need to explain the importance of the mask because I still haven’t found anyone who can provide a convincing answer as to how they make the slightest difference. With or without a mask, the entire contents of my lungs will be forced into the air - the cotton mask does absolutely jack shit, it doesn’t filter my breath and capture the nasties and it doesn’t neutralise them in any way. Non hospital-grade madks are not just next to useless, they also cut off a number of the population from the rest of you. I am as deaf as a post, but usually manage to get by just so long as there isn't too much background noise. What I didn’t realise is how much the past 55 years of struggling with one functioning ear has taught me to lip read. Put a mask on someone and it is like the volume has been turned down from 7 to 1.
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 14, 2021 19:05:20 GMT
.... But in just the couple of minutes I've been thinking about writing this I've been able to check UK deaths from Heart disease and found its about 3000 a week. But yet no ones banned pork pies? Well, just reading through this thread after a long day at work, I never realised that pork pies were so dangerous; can you get vaccinated against them? Thank goodness my current job doesn't take me to Melton Mowbray. I also didn't realise that coughing up coffee could be a sign of having the dreaded disease. Omicron may be spreading fast but if it basically does very little, it's like saying that the common cold is spreading, and we don't isolate for that. I wonder if my brother will be told which variant he has tested positive for (he's still not showing any symptoms). After the Pfizer booster on Saturday morning I felt nothing but on Sunday afternoon my left upper arm was swelling a bit and was sore, almost painful to touch. Fingers crossed, it appears to be back to normal now, a little inconvenience for the benefits that it is supposed to bring. I thought one aim of the vaccinations and boosters was to stop over-reaction and further restrictions on our liberty. Work from home if you can..... why? Does the virus spread more widely in the workplace than in the theatre, cinema, pub, restaurant?
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Omicron
Dec 14, 2021 20:19:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by Big Blue on Dec 14, 2021 20:19:40 GMT
I had both at the same time and, as per the other things that happen to me over time, nothing happened to me. At present my sciatica is so painful that no amount of anything would bother me.You need Pilates! Yoga helps. Can go to the gym and play squash with no pain at all but I can’t sit and watch TV.
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Post by PG on Dec 14, 2021 20:35:36 GMT
I think like so many issues there is a deepening polarisation of opinion around Covid and how to deal with it. Each wave or variant just seems to make it worse.
Reality is that there has to be found a middle path. Personally I think another lockdown is a waste of time. It will just do more damage in other areas - the economy; other diseases etc. But I'm not for a free for all either. Vaccination has clearly reduced hospital admissions and deaths and there has to be right way forward. It is the only practical way forward. Any other route - lockdown ad infinitum or a free for all - are both likely to end badly. The first because eventually when we are all too poor to afford a health service we're fucked. And the second as when we are all ill, the health service we can afford is fucked.
If the government strategy is to attempt to scare the crap out of people to get them to have a third jab then it seems to be working, based on the queues shown on the news today. But it's a shame that they seem to want or have to use that approach. But then, as said right at the start, how Covid develops is swayed by two factors. How dense your population is and how dense your population is.
Personally, I'd like politicians to say "look, we can't please everybody. There is no magic cure. Ultimately we have to find away to live with this and vaccination is that way. It worked in the past for polio, TB and works for flu too. We just need more vaccine jabs for Covid as the strains keep changing and we're usually playing catch up. So get jabbed."
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Post by humphreythepug on Dec 14, 2021 20:41:36 GMT
For how long do you think you will continue this way ? At what point do you go back to normal ? You need to explain the importance of the mask because I still haven’t found anyone who can provide a convincing answer as to how they make the slightest difference. With or without a mask, the entire contents of my lungs will be forced into the air - the cotton mask does absolutely jack shit, it doesn’t filter my breath and capture the nasties and it doesn’t neutralise them in any way. Look at when we dropped the mask mandate towards the end of July, Scotland and Wales kept it, there was no change for England and I think our infections per 100,000 remained slightly less than Scotland and Wales, with them keeping the mask mandate Masks is all about control and showing to be doing something, sure an N95 or FFP3 mask which is fitted properly and changed regularly may prevent any spread but come on, a mask made out of an old bit of t-shirt, or a fashion one bought from Etsy won't do fuck all! I'll be honest, we as a family, throughout this pandemic haven't done much different to normal, not washed our hands more, not really sanitised much, youngest worked at Sainsburys during lockdown 1, worn masks when it was a legal requirement but not when it was "advised", eaten out with friends, been to the cinema, went to Reading Festival and mixed with 100,000 others (all unmasked), had our jabs late as didn't want them particularly due to the speed they were approved, really haven't changed much of our routine, wife is a nanny to 3 kids, 2 of which are at school where there have been cases in the school, I deal with the public, we've not had 1 case at work, immediate family have had no cases, neither have the wife's nanny family and the mother is a head teacher.
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Omicron
Dec 14, 2021 22:20:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by Alex on Dec 14, 2021 22:20:15 GMT
I understand where you come from Humph. The wife is a teacher at a school where kids have been catching covid like it's going out of fashion, likewise the eldest is at a school where cases have been ramping up by the day and I've been travelling the land throughout the pandemic seeing all sorts of people and none of us have caught it. The only case in our household was my younger daughter who somehow caught it the other week despite being off school since April with depression!
Back in the first wave my brother, who like you is a car salesmen, caught the original covid and ended up in hospital on oxygen for a month and just about escaped intubation. He's obese and T1 diabetic so it was always going to hit him hard but that's the second time he's almost been taken from us and he's younger than me so I've always tried to take it very seriously.
But overall I know myself that my control of the virus has been lapsing in recent months through fatigue and I've spent over 18 months helping customers put in controls for their workplace so if I'm struggling to keep them up you can see why this new strain is spreading like wildfire. Trouble is, other than vaccines the only other controls that has really bought numbers down was the original lockdown in April 2020. We simply cannot afford to do that again so we do just have to live with it and have preventative control in the form of vaccination. I agree with the pointlessness of masks to a degree as their preventative effects have been very hard to prove and their effectiveness is not helped by people using make shift coverings or still not working out how to wear one properly. Plus the number of disposable ones being littered is appalling.
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Post by humphreythepug on Dec 14, 2021 23:50:03 GMT
Masks/face coverings do nothing, social distancing seems to be the best preventative measure however when people are masked, social distancing tends to go out of the window as wearing masks brings a false sense of security.
Look recently when the mask mandate was dropped in England and mask wearing became advisory, most Tory MP's in the commons didn't wear them, most Labour MP"s did, however at the Labour conference most didn't wear them, of course they were less on show to the country.
How was it OK to go to a pub or restaurant and spend all evening there, in an enclosed and busy area and not have to wear a mask but popping to Sainsburys for half an hour in a generally far more open area but you had to wear one.
Masks/face coverings are bullshit but it's an obvious and very visual thing to show that one is doing something when ultimately if you are going to get it, I think you will no matter what preventative measures you try and put in place, save locking yourself away.
On a slightly different note, September 2019 I was ill for 2-3 weeks, shortness of breath, weak, awful cough, very low peak flow which was down to 200 (normal is circa 550-600), I had blood tests, chest x-ray, antibiotics and was told that I was close to being admitted to hospital, clearly the Dr's weren't sure and nothing conclusive came of my problem, it cleared up by itself, I think I had Covid before it became a thing. The wife and some of her nanny friends had similar symptoms but not as bad as me in January/February 2020.
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Post by garry on Dec 15, 2021 8:04:11 GMT
I agree with the points on masks not working. There is a huge amount of data from across the globe that demonstrates this (take covid stats from any country, find the date they introduced mask mandates, find nothing that correlates to a reduction in any covid indicator). But there are huge numbers of otherwise sensible people who’ve swallowed this nonsense.
I agree that social distancing and lockdowns ‘work’ in that they will slow down the rate on infection.
But both of these measures are huge impositions. Social distancing and lockdowns have a massive impact on the economy, on mental health, on physical health, on friendships, on most of the things that make life worth living. Sure, we could all on average last a little longer if we avoided many things (smoking, drinking, over-indulging, driving, many sports, etc) but it would be an existence. Mask wearing is that outside indicator that we need to be afraid of other people. It’s like seeing a dog with a muzzle - you see an indication of danger.
The question that people now need to answer is this; At what point do you say “The impositions are more damaging than the virus”. The current measures are being applied for a virus strain that might have killed one person. It’s as dangerous as Noels House Party! Every winter viruses come along that kill thousands, even tens of thousands. Are you happy to live in a constant state of fear with the ever present threat of your liberties being reduced? Are you happy for your kids to live in that world? Do you want your kids to grow up in fear? Are you happy for Boris Johnson to have the ability to decide whether you can visit your relatives in a care home? Are you happy that Nicola Sturgeon can tell the people of Scotland who they can invite over for Christmas dinner? What if we where led by a less benign leader? Are you happy to be told what countries you can visit and have that list of countries changed overnight on a whim? When you decide the impositions are too great will it be too late? Freedoms are hard won and easily lost.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 15, 2021 15:10:47 GMT
The question that needs to be asked is what happened to every other winter ailment? Have we successfully eradicated them? Apparently so…..
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Post by scouse on Dec 15, 2021 18:23:22 GMT
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Post by Tim on Dec 16, 2021 9:04:42 GMT
If you're doing a table like that then under benefits should be ALL modes of transport, not just cars.
Under costs you should add in extra pollution from delivery vans.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 16, 2021 10:22:04 GMT
If you're doing a table like that then under benefits should be ALL modes of transport, not just cars. Under costs you should add in extra pollution from delivery vans. Ours are electric now.
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Post by Tim on Dec 16, 2021 11:12:29 GMT
If you're doing a table like that then under benefits should be ALL modes of transport, not just cars. Under costs you should add in extra pollution from delivery vans. Ours are electric now. All of them? I don't think I've seen an electric van delivering here yet. Certainly all the DPD/Hermes/Amazon/etc ones are diesel.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 16, 2021 14:06:28 GMT
All of them? I don't think I've seen an electric van delivering here yet. Certainly all the DPD/Hermes/Amazon/etc ones are diesel. Yes, pretty much all NE1 - NE10 is served by electric Amazon and DPD vans now.
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Omicron
Dec 16, 2021 15:46:17 GMT
via mobile
Post by Alex on Dec 16, 2021 15:46:17 GMT
Our local Amazon delivery driver has a battered yellow 15 year old Vivaro. He produces some lovely big black clouds when he guns it from one house to the next.
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Post by humphreythepug on Dec 16, 2021 15:52:05 GMT
We have electric Amazon branded vans round here, most are still diesel though.
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Omicron
Dec 17, 2021 7:21:13 GMT
via mobile
Post by bryan on Dec 17, 2021 7:21:13 GMT
We have a couple of all electric delivery units in Bristol and Glasgow with more to come
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Post by alf on Dec 17, 2021 12:48:37 GMT
Going back to the original point, I'm slightly surprised by some of the answers on here to be honest, but I'm certainly not going to hold it against any of you, it's well argued and being able to disagree without taking it personally is a key part of living in a democracy - or should be! I get the arguments about civil liberties and am myself a strong advocate of a strong economy, as lower incomes and fewer jobs have so many knock-on effects. What persuaded me to believe in measures to limit the spread was largely, and remains, hospital capacity. We can speculate as much as we like about how Omicron is milder, but if the factual reality is that hospitals are overloaded then we don't have the protection we as a rich society expect and more people will die, and have very unpleasant life experiences short of death, from other causes as well. And if we say "the NHS is there to protect us not the other way around" then surely we have to accept personal responsibility for our communal health, as we all seem so sure it largely affects people with other illnesses/poor health? Poor health can happen to anyone but a very great deal of it happens through life choices we make. I also think people are way too precious about things like wearing masks. Maybe that's because I spent a few years of my life in a profession where you undertook extreme privation in training even though you knew there was a 0% chance of an enemy sniper taking them out for, say, heating up their dinner on a cooking fire in a training ground in Wales in winter. Road safety is the same - we all do things on every journey (or should) - looking properly over our shoulder joining another road, ignoring messages on our phone, adopting reasonable speeds and distances - that are a hassle and are mitigating a tiny % actual risk. The flu graph above suggests to me that masks and other measures we have taken do work, and personally I always use an FFP rated one not the crap some use. Again its not difficult. And - while I'm very careful not to offend people on semi open platforms like Facebook - personally I think if you don't think vaccines work, and won't accept your liberty being somewhat limited if you refuse to take one, then fine - but go and live in a hut somewhere and die at 40 like we used to. The tech in modern semiconductors, jet engines, car engines even, and so many other things is way more advanced that that in vaccines - why trust that? And other things we do - being overweight, eating processed foods, getting too much sun, eating charred foods, having too little sleep or exercise, drinking/smoking all have very definite proven negative affects on our mortality. Unless you are well on top of all that, why moan abut a miniscule % chance of a side effect vs a much bigger % chance of serious illness or death from disease? All these closet scientists suddenly telling us "germ theory is not proven" and making out COVID is a massive con somehow perpetuated by a load of governments all working in parallel - when they can't even stay harmonious within their own party - is a total effing joke. Just all go off and live without WiFi, 5G, washing your hands, modern medicine etc and see where that gets you all - is what I'd like to say to them! Instead our taxes go to sorting them out when they end up in ICU... Sorry - should have gone in rants
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Post by Boxer6 on Dec 17, 2021 13:01:40 GMT
Going back to the original point, I'm slightly surprised by some of the answers on here to be honest, but I'm certainly not going to hold it against any of you, it's well argued and being able to disagree without taking it personally is a key part of living in a democracy - or should be! I also think people are way too precious about things like wearing masks. Maybe that's because I spent a few years of my life in a profession where you undertook extreme privation in training even though you knew there was a 0% chance of an enemy sniper taking them out for, say, heating up their dinner on a cooking fire in a training ground in Wales in winter. Road safety is the same - we all do things on every journey (or should) - looking properly over our shoulder joining another road, ignoring messages on our phone, adopting reasonable speeds and distances - that are a hassle and are mitigating a tiny % actual risk. The flu graph above suggests to me that masks and other measures we have taken do work, and personally I always use an FFP rated one not the crap some use. Again its not difficult. Sorry - should have gone in rants Hear hear! CW suits and masks were evil (we thought at the time) but a necessary one for squad survival, and IMO same goes for mask wearing now - even the "surgical" quaity ones we're issued. I'm limited in the opinions I'm permitted to voice due to my job, but for those who insist masks do nothing, try this; without wearing a mask, blow on your hand and see how far away it can get from your mouth before you no longer feel any breath. Then put even a basic mask on and try - if you get further away than a cuple of inches, your PFR is mightily impressive! Now, I know that the more minute particles of various things will pass throuh, but the idea is for them to reduce the risk, not wipe it out. Every little helps and all that. Rocket science it ain't.
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Post by garry on Dec 17, 2021 14:19:35 GMT
Going back to the original point, I'm slightly surprised by some of the answers on here to be honest, but I'm certainly not going to hold it against any of you, it's well argued and being able to disagree without taking it personally is a key part of living in a democracy - or should be! I also think people are way too precious about things like wearing masks. Maybe that's because I spent a few years of my life in a profession where you undertook extreme privation in training even though you knew there was a 0% chance of an enemy sniper taking them out for, say, heating up their dinner on a cooking fire in a training ground in Wales in winter. Road safety is the same - we all do things on every journey (or should) - looking properly over our shoulder joining another road, ignoring messages on our phone, adopting reasonable speeds and distances - that are a hassle and are mitigating a tiny % actual risk. The flu graph above suggests to me that masks and other measures we have taken do work, and personally I always use an FFP rated one not the crap some use. Again its not difficult. Sorry - should have gone in rants Hear hear! CW suits and masks were evil (we thought at the time) but a necessary one for squad survival, and IMO same goes for mask wearing now - even the "surgical" quaity ones we're issued. I'm limited in the opinions I'm permitted to voice due to my job, but for those who insist masks do nothing, try this; without wearing a mask, blow on your hand and see how far away it can get from your mouth before you no longer feel any breath. Then put even a basic mask on and try - if you get further away than a cuple of inches, your PFR is mightily impressive! Now, I know that the more minute particles of various things will pass throuh, but the idea is for them to reduce the risk, not wipe it out. Every little helps and all that. Rocket science it ain't. It’s not rocket science, it’s data science. We’re circa 2 years in and have huge amounts of data from every region of the world. The hypothesis ‘masks reduce covid infection’ should be provable by the data showing some point of inflection associated with mask mandates. It doesn’t. Similarly, the argument that we’d be in some much worse state without taking measures fails an empirical test. There are plenty of places around the world that responded with a ‘do nothing’ attitude yet nowhere has seen covid spiral out of control.
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Post by garry on Dec 17, 2021 14:41:23 GMT
I get the arguments about civil liberties and am myself a strong advocate of a strong economy, as lower incomes and fewer jobs have so many knock-on effects. What persuaded me to believe in measures to limit the spread was largely, and remains, hospital capacity. We can speculate as much as we like about how Omicron is milder, but if the factual reality is that hospitals are overloaded then we don't have the protection we as a rich society expect and more people will die, and have very unpleasant life experiences short of death, from other causes as well. And if we say "the NHS is there to protect us not the other way around" then surely we have to accept personal responsibility for our communal health, as we all seem so sure it largely affects people with other illnesses/poor health? Poor health can happen to anyone but a very great deal of it happens through life choices we make. When will you think the measures are an imposition? Hospitals are stretched beyond capacity most winters and can easily be overwhelmed by a flu outbreak. Should we wear masks for the foreseeable future and get comfortable with mid winter lockdowns being imposed at short notice, predicated by early warnings of potential virus threats? This will have an impact on GDP which has a clear link to life expectancy. Should we simply accept this as a consequence?
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Post by chipbutty on Dec 17, 2021 14:46:24 GMT
So if the breath is not coming out of the front - where does it go ?
It gets forced out of the sides of the mask (usually the top where it steams up your glasses) - I would liken it to putting your hand over a hose, it doesn't stop the water, it just sends it in many different directions at a higher pressure.
How is that reducing the potential number of covid particles in the air ? (that is then breathed in by all and sundry in the enclosed space).
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Post by chipbutty on Dec 17, 2021 15:01:01 GMT
If the vaccines do work - why don't they publicise all Covid hospitalisations and deaths by vaccine status ? I am not saying vaccines don't work, but you could sweep away all the doubt in a flash with some accurate data. I can only assume the data is not convincing enough to be used to that end.
If the vaccines stopped transmission irrespective of your own level of risk vs Covid, I could at least understand why people want mandatory vaccinations. However, given that they don't, it's absolute madness that you would even contemplate treating healthy under 40s like 2nd class citizens because they won't take a vaccine for a disease that has less chance of hospitalising them than their chance of dying in a car crash on the way to getting said vaccination.
There should be no more talk of restrictions or any more ridiculous rules - address the core issue of a lack of capacity and move on, otherwise we will forever be at the mercy of inadequate health care provision.
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Post by Boxer6 on Dec 17, 2021 15:27:46 GMT
Hear hear! CW suits and masks were evil (we thought at the time) but a necessary one for squad survival, and IMO same goes for mask wearing now - even the "surgical" quaity ones we're issued. I'm limited in the opinions I'm permitted to voice due to my job, but for those who insist masks do nothing, try this; without wearing a mask, blow on your hand and see how far away it can get from your mouth before you no longer feel any breath. Then put even a basic mask on and try - if you get further away than a cuple of inches, your PFR is mightily impressive! Now, I know that the more minute particles of various things will pass throuh, but the idea is for them to reduce the risk, not wipe it out. Every little helps and all that. Rocket science it ain't. It’s not rocket science, it’s data science. We’re circa 2 years in and have huge amounts of data from every region of the world. The hypothesis ‘masks reduce covid infection’ should be provable by the data showing some point of inflection associated with mask mandates. It doesn’t. Similarly, the argument that we’d be in some much worse state without taking measures fails an empirical test. There are plenty of places around the world that responded with a ‘do nothing’ attitude yet nowhere has seen covid spiral out of control. Well, yes and no. Huge amounts of data for sure, but who among us can say which data is useful and accurate and which isn't? Also, it's widely accepted that the UK is far and away the most prolific tester, thus producing the massive number data; but few other, if any, countries anywhere test to the same level. To my mind, that isn't comparing like for like, so reduces the validitiy of any comparison.
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Post by Boxer6 on Dec 17, 2021 16:08:00 GMT
So if the breath is not coming out of the front - where does it go ? It gets forced out of the sides of the mask (usually the top where it steams up your glasses) - I would liken it to putting your hand over a hose, it doesn't stop the water, it just sends it in many different directions at a higher pressure. How is that reducing the potential number of covid particles in the air ? (that is then breathed in by all and sundry in the enclosed space). The breath comes out, at the sides and the top (note taken about glasses - it's the bane of my life!) It's a proportion of Covid molecules tht are trapped, thus reducing the number floating free. Of course, most such masks are single use/single session only, so repeated use quickly nullifies any benefit they have initially.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 17, 2021 17:25:53 GMT
As my mate said; “If masks work how come my jeans don’t stop the smell of my farts?”
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Omicron
Dec 18, 2021 12:05:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by Alex on Dec 18, 2021 12:05:00 GMT
As my mate said; “If masks work how come my jeans don’t stop the smell of my farts?” Your mate didn't happen to have a brother who was once leader of the Labour Party by any chance?
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