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Post by michael on Aug 4, 2020 6:21:24 GMT
Hearing lots of positive things about the Oxford vaccine (although nothing is certain) which could be the out of this pandemic. Would you take it up if offered?
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Post by chipbutty on Aug 4, 2020 6:47:22 GMT
No There is no way that a safe and effective vaccine can be developed and safely tested in such a short space of time, especially for something we keep being told is new and scary and nothing like flu If the vaccine is safe and extremely effective straight out of the gate, then I am going to call out the massively stinky dead rat behind the cupboard. However, I’ll put my tin foil hat down for now and let those who really need it be the test cases.
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Post by Alex on Aug 4, 2020 7:32:53 GMT
If it is proven to be safe in the various medical trials they will have to complete then I will take it if I'm offered. I doubt I'll be in the first tranche of recipients but with my wife being a teacher I may be offered it earlier than some so I have already thought about it.
I understand the scepticism and early indications that Covid antibodies don't last very long suggest it could only be effective for a short period and if the virus mutates like flu does I suspect they'll have to regularly redevelop it.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 4, 2020 7:40:32 GMT
Yes I'd take it. The hoops to jump through that get vaccines approved haven't been changed so there's nothing to suggest a vaccine developed in a year is any less safe than one developed over 5 years, particularly as they had a head start with its genome being mapped and virtually unlimited money.
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Post by michael on Aug 4, 2020 7:51:11 GMT
I understand the scepticism and early indications that Covid antibodies don't last very long suggest it could only be effective for a short period and if the virus mutates like flu does I suspect they'll have to regularly redevelop it. The antibodies issue isn't clear but the Oxford vaccine appears to produce a strong T cell response which is looking like it's more important. The speed is impressive but that's thanks to the new process employed to devise the vaccine which effectively trains the immune system to recognise something like the virus rather than the drawn out process of producing a retrograde.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 4, 2020 8:07:50 GMT
If it is proven to be safe in the various medical trials they will have to complete then I will take it if I'm offered. I doubt I'll be in the first tranche of recipients but with my wife being a teacher I may be offered it earlier than some so I have already thought about it. I understand the scepticism and early indications that Covid antibodies don't last very long suggest it could only be effective for a short period and if the virus mutates like flu does I suspect they'll have to regularly redevelop it. This ^^ (without the bit about teachers). On the development side, my wife, who worked in big pharma for 15yrs and has lots of friends who still do, said one of the real reasons vaccines take ages to develop because there is generally sweet FA money in vaccines for the pharmaceutical companies compared to other drugs whose potential returns might actually outweigh the billions needed to be spent to develop them. In the current circumstances, with various G20 governments throwing money at the problem, that concern largely evaporates and that speeds up development.
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Post by Martin on Aug 4, 2020 8:10:21 GMT
If it is proven to be safe in the various medical trials they will have to complete then I will take it if I'm offered. I doubt I'll be in the first tranche of recipients but with my wife being a teacher I may be offered it earlier than some so I have already thought about it. I understand the scepticism and early indications that Covid antibodies don't last very long suggest it could only be effective for a short period and if the virus mutates like flu does I suspect they'll have to regularly redevelop it. This ^^ +another. I'd also take it if offered.
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Post by chipbutty on Aug 4, 2020 8:29:39 GMT
Surely the testing trials are the reason development takes such a long time, because the permutations of testing cycles that have to be run in order to prove out safety.
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Post by Alex on Aug 4, 2020 8:36:42 GMT
Surely the testing trials are the reason development takes such a long time, because the permutations of testing cycles that have to be run in order to prove out safety. But the trials take a long time because of lack of budget. With the budget that the Covid vaccine has they can run much bigger trials so can get tangible results a lot quicker.
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Post by Tim on Aug 4, 2020 8:48:09 GMT
The speed of this has come up in several discussions I've had with friends and my view is the same - nothing like this has caused such widespread economic devastation before so there's the sole reason for the 'hurry up'.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 4, 2020 8:57:01 GMT
Surely the testing trials are the reason development takes such a long time, because the permutations of testing cycles that have to be run in order to prove out safety. But the trials take a long time because of lack of budget. With the budget that the Covid vaccine has they can run much bigger trials so can get tangible results a lot quicker. Precisely. My wife used to do budgeting for clinical trials at GSK, so she knows what she is talking about.
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Post by michael on Aug 4, 2020 9:21:26 GMT
Through a social media page I look after I see a lot of conspiracy theory stuff around vaccines but it's worth remembering these theories are usually started with a purpose. With the antivax movement it has roots in the mid-nineties. I think it was the MMR jab that used tissue from an unborn foetus that had the US pro-life lobby up in arms and it's thought that's where the antivax campaign took hold.
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Post by Tim on Aug 4, 2020 9:30:01 GMT
Through a social media page I look after I see a lot of conspiracy theory stuff around vaccines but it's worth remembering these theories are usually started with a purpose. With the antivax movement it has roots in the mid-nineties. I think it was the MMR jab that used tissue from an unborn foetus that had the US pro-life lobby up in arms and it's thought that's where the antivax campaign took hold. I've seen theories that the cold/covid vaccine is being funded by Bill Gates & George Soros so that a microchip can be injected into the recipient to allow Gates to control them Obviously a lot of these, er, theories will be spread on Facebook/Instagram/etc, all places that are sparkly clean and where no data is harvested and no control exercised......
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Post by michael on Aug 4, 2020 9:33:29 GMT
If Bill Gates had anything to do with a chip you'd hardly need to worry as it'll be broken long before it's injected. There's one particular nutjob who has the obligatory ban 5G sticker on his profile picture who in one sentence will argue that COVID is pumped into the atmosphere through 5G towers and in the next say that COVID doesn't actually exist it's just the flu.
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Post by ChrisM on Aug 4, 2020 9:35:38 GMT
Let's start a new conspiracy theory that covid-19 can be spread by a mobile phone call.......
Really, where do some of these "theorists" dream up their crap?
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Post by johnc on Aug 4, 2020 9:40:19 GMT
I take the flu jab each year (because I can't risk being ill at the busiest time of the year) and I would happily take the new one too. With the number of vaccinations they will be giving, they will need to be 100% certain that it has no detrimental impact so I see no problem in taking it. I don't subscribe to the theory that the vaccine is a means of reducing world population.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 4, 2020 9:43:48 GMT
Let's start a new conspiracy theory that covid-19 can be spread by a mobile phone call....... Really, where do some of these "theorists" dream up their crap? If you were an intelligent conspiracist, you'd be promoting the view that "bad actors" come up with reams of this crap for their own aims (which may simply be as amorphous as general anarchy or may be more targeted) and then metaphorically-speaking throw it against the wall (via the medium of the internet) and see which of it sticks. And by " sticks", I mean " appeals to, and gets then bandied around by, those susceptible to outlandish conspiracy theories that pander to their own prejudices (admitted or not) and preconceived notions".
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 4, 2020 9:55:23 GMT
Through a social media page I look after I see a lot of conspiracy theory stuff around vaccines but it's worth remembering these theories are usually started with a purpose. With the antivax movement it has roots in the mid-nineties. I think it was the MMR jab that used tissue from an unborn foetus that had the US pro-life lobby up in arms and it's thought that's where the antivax campaign took hold. I've seen theories that the cold/covid vaccine is being funded by Bill Gates & George Soros so that a microchip can be injected into the recipient to allow Gates to control them Bollocks - we had our dog chipped and the little bugger runs round doing whatever he wants.
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Post by Tim on Aug 4, 2020 10:12:44 GMT
That's because he's too intelligent to be controlled by a chip. Or too dumb
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 10:26:24 GMT
Thalidomide was and still is safe. The problem is that the number of people who are identical in every way is minimal. This is where things go pear shaped. We are also exposed to different levels of products at different stages of other things we are exposed to and this will affect how we respond to vaccines. Last time I had a flu vaccination I got flu and not the two day sniffles. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide
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Post by chipbutty on Aug 4, 2020 10:36:48 GMT
I think brushing aside any concerns around the development of a safe vaccine because available budget is the main limiting factor and therefore coming to the conclusion that unlimited budget = safe vaccine in record breaking time is rather naive....
I don't subscribe to any of the lurid and nonsensical conspiracy theories - but I am continually amazed at the speed at which rationality and logic is being jettisoned. It's not Covid that's going to get you, it's the madness it's engendered.
And you would have to mad to willingly take a Covid vaccine in 2020.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 4, 2020 10:43:20 GMT
I think brushing aside any concerns around the development of a safe vaccine because available budget is the main limiting factor and therefore coming to the conclusion that unlimited budget = safe vaccine in record breaking time is rather naive.... I don't subscribe to any of the lurid and nonsensical conspiracy theories - but I am continually amazed at the speed at which rationality and logic is being jettisoned. It's not Covid that's going to get you, it's the madness it's engendered. And you would have to mad to willingly take a Covid vaccine in 2020. I think I'd rather trust thousands of clinicians and all the regulatory bodies over someone who just has a hunch it might not be safe because they don't really understand the process.
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Post by chipbutty on Aug 4, 2020 11:03:50 GMT
No one on this thread clearly understands the process if they can ignore the clearly articulated milestones (by someone who does know what they are talking about) and decide that no questions need to be asked if a vaccine can be ponied up in under 12 months, even though it is patently clear that the above is not totally constrained by budget availability.
However, if you want to take one for the team for a virus that the vast majority of people have greater chance of dying on the way to get the vaccine than dying from the virus itself.
Then be my guest
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 4, 2020 11:28:26 GMT
No one on this thread clearly understands the process if they can ignore the clearly articulated milestones (by someone who does know what they are talking about) and decide that no questions need to be asked if a vaccine can be ponied up in under 12 months, even though it is patently clear that the above is not totally constrained by budget availability. However, if you want to take one for the team for a virus that the vast majority of people have greater chance of dying on the way to get the vaccine than dying from the virus itself. Then be my guest So who is this person who knows what they are talking about because, with no offence intended, it's not you? Everything you've posted shows little knowledge of vaccine development or an understanding of Covid-19, a disease by the way, that even the experts don't fully understand so your comment about mortality rate is moot. However, flat earth theory, anti-vax, 5G conspiracies are all the rage and you can pick from any one. Be my guest, it's your choice.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 12:52:49 GMT
I'll start again as my earlier post made no sense at all which I blame on the very nice chemicals I had last night.
We all respond differently to the chemicals we ingest every day and the levels of those will effect, even in some small way, how our bodies react to anything else we take in. The vaccine is going to be a live if attenuated virus. This will have different affects on each of us which will alter the efficacy of the virus, as will the viability or otherwise of our immune system. Mine is compromised for example so even an attenuated virus can have a nasty knock on effect. Thalidomide was and still is considered safe but, the individual it is given to can react differently from the next person and they definitely did NOT do enough testing when they decided that one of the affects was reduced nausea so lets give it to women who are experiencing morning sickness. Affects on a person may not be evident until some time later which is another reason tests are multiple over quite a few years.
The standard flu vaccine is not one vaccine but one of many and is produced to a formula indicating which variant of 'standard flu' is expected to be pre eminent THIS year.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 4, 2020 14:25:38 GMT
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Post by chipbutty on Aug 4, 2020 15:00:46 GMT
Quoted in the section I quoted " Dr. Seema Yasmin, director of the Stanford Health Communication Initiative ".
There are multiple articles from multiple sources that say the same thing and you are free to find this out for yourself
Ok - feel free to counter post as to why the information I shared is factually incorrect - because you have shared nothing of use or note to date. I haven't claimed to be expert on anything but I am capable of reading a wide range of data from those who are an coming to a sensible conclusion.
This is laughable - the mortality rates have come from official published statistics and you are free to go to the sources direct and make your own conclusions. It is the observed hospitalisations and mortality rates that are truest measures of the dangers posed by Covid - especially when these are helpfully and neatly categorised by age group with further identification of existing co-morbidity. Again, you haven't shared or posted any credible data sources to present any case that suggests otherwise. I would certainly welcome you doing so as I am open to reading and understanding.
Some more food for thought (unless you've made your mind up already of course).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 15:36:57 GMT
Just some more food for thought. When the government launched Op Granby they had not long before destroyed their stocks of vaccines against the very threats they sent us over there to destroy. One of the threats was a weaponised form of Bubonic Plague. They quickly organised replacements for these and ran a shortened form of testing which the whole list of inoculations passed. After we started showing symptoms/illness there was another raft of tests of the vaccines we were given and found that the majority of the vaccines were unfit for human use. Not that they failed certain aspects of the tests, unfit for human use.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 4, 2020 15:37:14 GMT
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Post by chipbutty on Aug 4, 2020 17:37:57 GMT
I know - financial analysts are very good at sifting through lots of data sources and coming to a point of view or position and he has very carefully referenced his numerous medical sources that have driven his point of view.
Of course - it is a point of view only and you could suggest that he has sought out evidence that only supports his argument, although I would say that the quality and volume of data he has referenced does not suggest this. This is one of hundreds of articles I've seen either from intelligent commentators who aren't " medically qualified " all the way through to reports from hospital doctors who give their view from the trenches.
What is either encouraging (or not) is that even the qualified individuals are at each others throats with some of this, but if you sift through some of the politics, it all winds back to the data (hospitalisations and deaths).
Like everyone else - I want to understand as best I can AND have some faith that those holding the ropes are guided purely by best intentions and well balanced expertise. However that faith is currently severely tested and I could point to a wealth of data that explains why.
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