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Post by michael on Jun 10, 2020 11:59:39 GMT
I had high hopes for this being a truly everyday utility vehicle but the prototype has knocked my confidence. Obviously it's unfair to judge things based on a disguised prototype but it seems they've struggled to see past the original Defender. JLR IP lawyers will rightly be all over this.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 10, 2020 12:05:07 GMT
I was thinking more Mercedes lawyers will be after it due to its resemblance to the G Wagon? Or did JLR lawyers already go after Mercedes about that? I'm not sure. Did Jeep go after JLR?
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Post by michael on Jun 10, 2020 12:12:30 GMT
I think my greater concern is it's going to look crap.
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Post by johnc on Jun 10, 2020 12:56:51 GMT
I don't think that windscreen wiper is going to be much use for anything!
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Post by garry on Jun 10, 2020 13:45:56 GMT
Is it going to be cheap? Why is it different forms what’s on offer?
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Post by michael on Jun 10, 2020 13:50:26 GMT
Is it going to be cheap? Why is it different forms what’s on offer? I'd heard £30k mooted which is cheap. It's difference is primarily the capability and ladder frame in the mould of the discontinued Defender. I assume it bucks the trend of being a crossover, too. |
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Post by Tim on Jun 10, 2020 14:01:37 GMT
Even with the swirly camouflage you can see the panel gaps.
This isn't going to be new and exciting. Anyone remember the Santana PS-10?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 10, 2020 14:26:39 GMT
We're all a bit quick to judge aren't we?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 14:34:55 GMT
It looks like a high roof 110 with a disguise.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jun 10, 2020 15:01:27 GMT
I can't see who they think their target market is.
Looks like an Iveco Massif
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 10, 2020 15:55:53 GMT
I can't see who they think their target market is. Looks like an Iveco Massif I imagine it'll be those that want rugged Land Rover off road ability without Land Rover unreliability. |
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Post by Tim on Jun 10, 2020 16:03:52 GMT
The Iveco Massif was what the Santana became after Iveco took them over.
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 10, 2020 17:31:40 GMT
Is it going to be cheap? Why is it different forms what’s on offer? I'd heard £30k mooted which is cheap. It's difference is primarily the capability and ladder frame in the mould of the discontinued Defender. I assume it bucks the trend of being a crossover, too. £30k would be great but I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I think this is unlikely. It says that it will use BMW's latest six-cylinder petrol and diesel engines - that sounds like expensive hardware for a £30k car. |
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Post by michael on Jun 10, 2020 17:48:35 GMT
I'd heard £30k mooted which is cheap. It's difference is primarily the capability and ladder frame in the mould of the discontinued Defender. I assume it bucks the trend of being a crossover, too. £30k would be great but I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I think this is unlikely. It says that it will use BMW's latest six-cylinder petrol and diesel engines - that sounds like expensive hardware for a £30k car. I agree. It’s looking more and more like it’ll be north of £40k which is Defender territory and that’s a highly polished product and (dare I say it) good value at that end of the range. It may yet surprise me, Bob’s right in that I'm jumping the gun given it’s still in its wrapping. |
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 10, 2020 18:04:02 GMT
If they can produce a capable machine that neither automotive white goods nor overly flash from a desirability standpoint, and isn't only for the deep-pocketed, that would be a great achievement.
Here's hoping. It's like the G-Wagon. In isolation, I really like the G-Wagon and a V8 version without all the AMG tartiness would be a fine thing. But it costs an absolute fortune and has an irredeemably vulgar image, so I'd never buy one unless I woke up tomorrow and found I had somehow turned into one of the Kardashians.
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Post by PG on Jun 15, 2020 9:38:24 GMT
£30k would be great but I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I think this is unlikely. It says that it will use BMW's latest six-cylinder petrol and diesel engines - that sounds like expensive hardware for a £30k car. I agree. It’s looking more and more like it’ll be north of £40k which is Defender territory and that’s a highly polished product and (dare I say it) good value at that end of the range. It may yet surprise me, Bob’s right in that I'm jumping the gun given it’s still in its wrapping. I expect from a PR perspective they'll be desperate to bring out some boggo-basic version that will undercut the cheapest Defender just to make headlines. But in reality, it'll be Defender money, just more hardcore offroad biased. Which does make me wonder who the target market will be and what volume they aspire to? It isn't going to win over double-cab pickup buyers. It won't have the history of Defenders to support that brand. Maybe he's hoping it will become a military / utility vehicle of choice? |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 15, 2020 10:10:08 GMT
I agree. It’s looking more and more like it’ll be north of £40k which is Defender territory and that’s a highly polished product and (dare I say it) good value at that end of the range. It may yet surprise me, Bob’s right in that I'm jumping the gun given it’s still in its wrapping. I expect from a PR perspective they'll be desperate to bring out some boggo-basic version that will undercut the cheapest Defender just to make headlines. But in reality, it'll be Defender money, just more hardcore offroad biased. Which does make me wonder who the target market will be and what volume they aspire to? It isn't going to win over double-cab pickup buyers. It won't have the history of Defenders to support that brand. Maybe he's hoping it will become a military / utility vehicle of choice? Farmers are an unromantic lot and don't care much for brand heritage. They'll look at the offering from INEOS and if they think it's a better tool than the Defender they'll buy it. |
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Post by Tim on Jun 15, 2020 12:22:16 GMT
If it has a good warranty and its cheap enough then a few farmers will buy it. That's what happened with Great Wall's pickup.
It was VERY cheap and had a 5 or 7 year warranty!
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Post by michael on Jun 15, 2020 12:24:26 GMT
Unless they make a pickup version I can't see why it's going to appeal to farmers.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 15, 2020 12:46:34 GMT
Unless they make a pickup version I can't see why it's going to appeal to farmers. I would think they'll make a pick up version as the ladder chassis will make it very configurable, but either way I see enough old Defenders and Discoveries running round farms in Northumberland to suggest many of them would be interested in it. |
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Post by ChrisM on Jun 15, 2020 13:52:40 GMT
Rumour has it that Ineos are in discussion with some Government departments for supply........ the army used to have a load of old Land Rovers but I suspect that the current Defender is too luxurious, plus there's no cab-and-chassis version available for special vehicles to be made. I shall be very interested to see what Ineos come up with.....
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Post by michael on Jun 29, 2020 10:26:41 GMT
I'm still sure this is going to be very Defendery.  |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 29, 2020 10:58:05 GMT
I'm still sure this is going to be very Defendery. The panel fit and gaps suggest it's going to be very unDefendery..😀 |
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Post by PG on Jun 29, 2020 19:51:35 GMT
I'm still sure this is going to be very Defendery. Yes. Even down to the exposed bonnet hinges it would appear. |
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 1, 2020 6:12:31 GMT
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 1, 2020 8:09:10 GMT
As it says in the article JLR didn't trademark the shape of the Defender - although I'm not sure how they could have as it was ripped off the Jeep.
Looks great that - part Defender, part G-Wagon, - you have to wonder why JLR didn't build this 10-15 years ago. If it turns out to be reliable they could be a force to be reckoned with.
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Post by PG on Jul 1, 2020 8:10:29 GMT
It looks like they took a 110 Defender from the A pillar back and welded it to a series 1 G class front end. In the various articles about it there are a few interesting pointers:
Re pricing (DT online) - "The station wagon’s payload will be one tonne, its towing capacity 3.5 tonnes and the cost will be “nearer Raptor than G-Wagen,” says a spokesperson. To put that into perspective, Ford’s Ranger Raptor costs £42,000 without VAT in the UK. The G-Wagen starts at £92,000 with VAT (there’s no official commercial version in the UK), which means that the Grenadier will likely cost north of £50,000 without VAT".
Re the drive (Autocar) - Heilmann said that although the Grenadier’s performance will make off-roading a priority, its on-road ability will be “fine for anyone who’s used to driving, say, a Jeep Wrangler”.
I wish them every success but I can't be sure I'd want one if it is too on-road compromised. We did 220 miles in the Shogun yesterday visiting another farm and I'm not sure I'd want to do that in a Wrangler.
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Post by johnc on Jul 1, 2020 9:20:58 GMT
Good luck to them I say. If JLR are so concerned about protecting the Defender, they shouldn't have stopped making it!
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 1, 2020 9:52:40 GMT
It does look good and sounds good. It's just a bit of a pity it's quite such a Defender rip-off IMHO. Surely they had scope to be a bit more imaginative.
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Post by Tim on Jul 1, 2020 10:16:53 GMT
I'm not keen, I like the Defender look but grafting on the modern styling bits (I think there are at least 2 changes  ) jars a bit. The 25k sales target appears optimistic as well - its a new brand making an old-fashioned vehicle that failed to sell that number for a lot of years. This one might have 6 pot BMW engines but all I can see that adding is £££££s. After the initial excitement is over how many people are actually going to go for one of these? |
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) jars a bit.