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Post by ChrisM on Jul 1, 2020 10:36:57 GMT
Looks great that - part Defender, part G-Wagon, - you have to wonder why JLR didn't build this 10-15 years ago. If it turns out to be reliable they could be a force to be reckoned with. My copy of the mag dropped through the letterbox a few hours ago. My first thoughts were "Why didn't JLR make this?" Yes, it does indeed look like a modernised Defender to me, and all the better for it |
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Post by Roadrunner on Jul 1, 2020 11:15:14 GMT
I like it. Hopefully it will not be too expensive. We buy our top of the range Nissan Navara Tekna pickups at work for under £30,000.
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Post by chipbutty on Jul 1, 2020 12:19:08 GMT
Hmmm:
Large SUV body
Separate Chassis rated for 3.5 ton towing
BMW 6 cylinder turbo engines
ZF 8 speed auto
Meets all legislation and offers all mod cons.
Break even at 25k annual units.
This is going to be a £50k car (assuming they ever launch it).
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Post by Martin on Jul 1, 2020 12:33:19 GMT
I read that the ex VAT price for the base spec will start with a 4, so it will be £50k and up. I can’t see how they’d sell at that price, but if Mercedes can get over £100k for a G Wagon and a 5 year old Defender can cost you £35k, then maybe they will, but 25k units is a big ask.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 1, 2020 13:26:39 GMT
I think there will be sufficient initial demand to justify a £50k price tag and I don't think a target of 25k a year is too ambitious, once the commercial opportunities are realised.
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 1, 2020 13:39:00 GMT
Wow: that actually looks really cool. I'm now anticipating a Grand Tour event and a Top Gear special with one of these in the group to showcase it worldwide. G-Wagens were excellent when they came out but the bollocks Eastern European drug-dealer fodder they are now is painful; the new Defender is not really helping itself when the PR department issues photos across social media of them parked outside West London stucco-fronted terraces alongside Bentleys and FIAT 500s so it's this INEOS or a Land Cruiser.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 13:57:32 GMT
Is that £50k price a commercial unit? what would the original buyers get them for as a working vehicle?
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Post by michael on Jul 1, 2020 15:29:25 GMT
That's a bit disappointing. Looking at it from these pictures I don't have any desire to own one which is a shame as it seems there has been some clever thinking and innovation gone into it. It's a shame then they ripped off the old Defender so much for the styling as it seems an opportunity missed to become iconic in its own right rather than the knock-off Defender.
I hope it sells, though. I imagine they'll team up with Twisted or similar to make Chelsea tractors to pull in the numbers.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Jul 1, 2020 22:40:09 GMT
It does look good and sounds good. It's just a bit of a pity it's quite such a Defender rip-off IMHO. Surely they had scope to be a bit more imaginative. But JLR were more imaginative with the new Defender and look how much criticism they got from some Landrover purists. I'm not sure how you can make something so utilitarian without making it look like something utilitarian that has come before. I think options for designs are limited at that point, short of something like the Tesla pick up. |
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Post by PG on Jul 2, 2020 10:13:52 GMT
What is amusing me is that all the anti-Landrover crowd were moaning when the new Defender came out that apart from not being a "proper" Defender, it was way, way too expensive. But these same people are now saying the Grenadier so great as it's a proper Defender replacement that they'll want one, quickly passing over the fact that it about 2 x the price they said JLR should bring out a Defender replacement for.
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Post by Tim on Jul 2, 2020 10:24:55 GMT
What is amusing me is that all the anti-Landrover crowd were moaning when the new Defender came out that apart from not being a "proper" Defender, it was way, way too expensive. But these same people are now saying the Grenadier so great as it's a proper Defender replacement that they'll want one, quickly passing over the fact that it about 2 x the price they said JLR should bring out a Defender replacement for. Not only that but once those 1,000 people have bought one who else is going to? Urbanites who want a Chelsea tractor will go straight to the new Defender because it's new a shiny whereas this is a rehash of something old. I don't see the price being a factor because there's no way they can bring this in significantly cheaper than the new Defender. So apart from proper off-roader types who have a decent wad where are the 25k customers going to appear from ? |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 2, 2020 10:40:04 GMT
What is amusing me is that all the anti-Landrover crowd were moaning when the new Defender came out that apart from not being a "proper" Defender, it was way, way too expensive. But these same people are now saying the Grenadier so great as it's a proper Defender replacement that they'll want one, quickly passing over the fact that it about 2 x the price they said JLR should bring out a Defender replacement for. Not only that but once those 1,000 people have bought one who else is going to? Urbanites who want a Chelsea tractor will go straight to the new Defender because it's new a shiny whereas this is a rehash of something old. I don't see the price being a factor because there's no way they can bring this in significantly cheaper than the new Defender. So apart from proper off-roader types who have a decent wad where are the 25k customers going to appear from ? They've had 50,000 expressions of interest so far. If 20% of those go on to buy that's 10k there. I think militaries would go for this over a new Defender, as would utilities companies, specialist vehicle suppliers etc. |
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Post by chipbutty on Jul 2, 2020 10:41:17 GMT
I don’t understand who their target market is:
It’s too sophisticated to be cheap enough for those who want a real utilitarian vehicle
It’s too sophisticated to appeal to those who want simplistic toughness for reliability and ease of repair in inhospitable terrains. I would also argue that a brand new player with a brand new car built in a brand new factory is not going to tempt such buyers to take the risk.
It’s not sophisticated enough for those who buy for the image but want to use it like a normal SUV – Ineos themselves have already started to set expectations with regards to on road behaviour and refinement – and those expectations are not high.
When LR was selling 25k Defenders globally, the level of SV customisation (not quilted dodo leather hand bag holders, but actual modifications for army, police, forestry, fire applications) was endless. Ineos have so far shown a 5 door and a 4 door pick up rendering
Have they even broken ground on a factory yet ? – I really hope this doesn’t go the way the Dyson vehicle did (and the way reborn TVR appears to be going).
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 2, 2020 11:17:17 GMT
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 2, 2020 12:24:15 GMT
I don’t understand who their target market is: It’s too sophisticated to be cheap enough for those who want a real utilitarian vehicle It’s too sophisticated to appeal to those who want simplistic toughness for reliability and ease of repair in inhospitable terrains. I would also argue that a brand new player with a brand new car built in a brand new factory is not going to tempt such buyers to take the risk. It’s not sophisticated enough for those who buy for the image but want to use it like a normal SUV – Ineos themselves have already started to set expectations with regards to on road behaviour and refinement – and those expectations are not high. When LR was selling 25k Defenders globally, the level of SV customisation (not quilted dodo leather hand bag holders, but actual modifications for army, police, forestry, fire applications) was endless. Ineos have so far shown a 5 door and a 4 door pick up rendering Have they even broken ground on a factory yet ? – I really hope this doesn’t go the way the Dyson vehicle did (and the way reborn TVR appears to be going). I imagine Jim Ratcliffe thinks it will sell to people like himself and others for whom British-made is a key selling point. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 2, 2020 12:40:35 GMT
I don’t understand who their target market is: It’s too sophisticated to be cheap enough for those who want a real utilitarian vehicle It’s too sophisticated to appeal to those who want simplistic toughness for reliability and ease of repair in inhospitable terrains. I would also argue that a brand new player with a brand new car built in a brand new factory is not going to tempt such buyers to take the risk. It’s not sophisticated enough for those who buy for the image but want to use it like a normal SUV – Ineos themselves have already started to set expectations with regards to on road behaviour and refinement – and those expectations are not high. When LR was selling 25k Defenders globally, the level of SV customisation (not quilted dodo leather hand bag holders, but actual modifications for army, police, forestry, fire applications) was endless. Ineos have so far shown a 5 door and a 4 door pick up rendering Have they even broken ground on a factory yet ? – I really hope this doesn’t go the way the Dyson vehicle did (and the way reborn TVR appears to be going). I imagine Jim Ratcliffe thinks it will sell to people like himself and others for whom British-made is a key selling point. They haven't broken ground on the factory yet - I believe the plans were only submitted at the end of May. I admire anyone who plans to bring manufacturing back to Britain. |
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Post by Tim on Jul 2, 2020 13:18:46 GMT
He can spend his Monaco tax saving on it  Yes, I agree happy to see someone planning to do that, just not sure the product has a long life ahead of it. Having said that while I'm not excited by it what do I know, I'm not keen on Porsches either! |
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Post by michael on Jul 7, 2020 10:55:52 GMT
I imagine Jim Ratcliffe thinks it will sell to people like himself and others for whom British-made is a key selling point. They haven't broken ground on the factory yet - I believe the plans were only submitted at the end of May. I admire anyone who plans to bring manufacturing back to Britain. Made in France?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 7, 2020 11:05:23 GMT
They haven't broken ground on the factory yet - I believe the plans were only submitted at the end of May. I admire anyone who plans to bring manufacturing back to Britain. Made in France?
I can see the sense - interesting to see if this a real possibility or posturing to get more grant money from the Welsh government. Or the French government is offering significant help. |
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Post by Tim on Jul 7, 2020 11:15:55 GMT
Makes sense, it'll be closer to home for Jim Radcliffe |
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 7, 2020 13:13:13 GMT
I can see the sense - interesting to see if this a real possibility or posturing to get more grant money from the Welsh government. Or the French government is offering significant help. Posturing for money. But twattery all the same. |
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Post by michael on Jul 7, 2020 13:18:17 GMT
I can see the sense as the workforce will be in place as that's got to save a huge bill on training. The French army will probably buy them now.
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Post by PG on Jul 7, 2020 19:52:10 GMT
So, a collection of parts made from various European (non-UK) providers. Possibly to now be assembled in France. Perhaps this is a good thing as the Grenadier can then be judged on its merits as a vehicle and not treated, by some, like the second coming Defender replacement (that it clearly is not anymore).
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Post by Alex on Jul 9, 2020 11:00:30 GMT
There was an amusing discussion about the Grenadine on this weeks Smith and Sniff podcasts but the ultimate conclusion is that they probably won’t find enough people who actually want to buy it regardless of how good it is.
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Post by ChrisM on Aug 9, 2020 19:58:31 GMT
Hmmm: Large SUV body Separate Chassis rated for 3.5 ton towing BMW 6 cylinder turbo engines ZF 8 speed auto Meets all legislation and offers all mod cons. Break even at 25k annual units. This is going to be a £50k car (assuming they ever launch it). Indeed, launch price is going to be around £50k according to Auto Express www.autoexpress.co.uk/ineos/grenadier |
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Post by Roadrunner on Dec 8, 2020 18:54:05 GMT
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Post by Alex on Dec 12, 2020 22:26:12 GMT
I'm not overly convinced it'll be a sales success. I know it's more like the old Defender than the new one is but towards the end of its life was the Defender a particularly big chunk of the Land Rover sales chart? I think the new Defender is what the market was asking for and I'm not entirely sure what the Grenadier brings to the party against the raft of pick up trucks which have largely taken over the market the original Defender used to sell to. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 13, 2020 10:07:53 GMT
On the positive side; if this is the sales disaster predicted by this forum then it’ll be the French picking up the tab for the grants and incentives, not the Welsh. |
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Post by PG on Dec 13, 2020 11:21:10 GMT
Now it is being built in France, the French government will buy it for their police, armed services etc. Whether it is suitable or not is irrelevant of course.
But I reckon they've just kissed goodbye to many UK sales.
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 13, 2020 15:50:43 GMT
Now it is being built in France, the French government will buy it for their police, armed services etc. Whether it is suitable or not is irrelevant of course. Ooooh, this could be good news..... |
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