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Post by Big Blue on Jun 8, 2020 14:57:32 GMT
I am in several minds about the Colston thing. Firstly I knew about this issue and to be fair no matter how benevolent his legacy has been maintaining a statue in a public place of a slave trader in 2020 is fairly mind-blowingly ridiculous. It could have been moved to somewhere as a piece offering an explanation of the wrongs of his life but in the context of society at that time and then cover the good work done by his legacy-funding.
There are similar arguments for statues of Rhodes and Clive of India, although these are slightly less extreme in terms of outright slavery.
Then the media should highlight the plight of Liberia over the past 170 tears or so. Founded by Americans who felt that black ex-slaves would have a better opportunity to blossom in Africa it then gained independence from the USA (imperialist swine - who do they think they are having colonies?) in 1862(?). However the American-Liberians considered themselves a cut above all the other tribes and lorded over them (whilst being attacked because TIA - "this is Africa" as they say in the film Blood Diamond) and formed a "them and us" society. To them their black lives mattered more than the indigenous tribes.
Don't start on Rhodesia / Zimbabwe and the storming success liberation has brought the local population or you'll have people telling you oppression based on colour is worse than oppression based on politics and greed. I reckon all oppression is shit myself. That leads me to the one issue I have with the "Black Lives Matter" campaign /slogan / crowd-raiser or what ever it is. It drives those that are already racist further along the racist runway - they will never not be racist and will see the violence and anger as justification of their opinions. These racists aren't NF / NSDA skinheads parading the streets but people that are racist but would never tell you that they were. Like most of my neighbours and probably most of yours too.
"All lives matter" would have been better because it doesn't make the inference that all non-blacks are racist to the extent that seems to be imagined by many and doesn't infer that black people can't be racist themselves - I've been called a ghost, white-boy and more in London and Dallas - the worst being an Irish-American calling me a "good Irish boy" at 13 then not liking me telling him in very Surrey-schoolboy tones that I was English (I was a very posh-spoken youth).
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Post by michael on Jun 8, 2020 15:11:08 GMT
This is from the Black Lives Matter website. Trump must be funding them as everything they do seems designed to make his second term more of a sure bet.  |
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Post by garry on Jun 8, 2020 15:58:51 GMT
The Colston thing boils my piss. It’s just looking into the past to generate faux outrage in the present. And it’s not even a truthful look into the past. The subtext is that white man enslaved black man and we should feel a collective guilt about it. That wasn’t most white men. I’m from generations of Durham miners. My great grandad was down the mine at 14. Generations before him went down the pit at 11. When slavery was a abolished they were still sending young children and women down the mines for 11 hour shifts. The point being that being a black slave and being white british and lower class is hard to distinguish in 1810. It was horrific for the vast majority of people, But I’m not going to find some epitaph to british coal and chuck it in the Tyne, instead, every time I look at my kids I’m thankful that they don’t have to live that life and I can put them and their kids in an even better place.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 16:40:25 GMT
Whilst looking up up stories in the last few days, I have discovered that Walt Whitman is now regarded as a racist after reading that some black fella refused read one of his poems because he thought WW was some sort of white supremacist.
What next? Burn down Michael Caine's house because you heard a rumour he enjoyed making that film about killing Zulus?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 17:26:29 GMT
There is already, and has been for some time, a think like I do or you are not worthy. Even schools to a degree have this for example, clique mentality among groups of boy/girls/others. The bullies, the athletes and those on the sidelines etc. Nothing new in it but it always gets modified to produce the latest must think like subject. Black lives do matter but so does every life as Racing has said.
I'm not perfect and I do my best.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 17:49:24 GMT
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 9, 2020 9:23:18 GMT
Who is Hammy?
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Post by PetrolEd on Jun 9, 2020 9:28:23 GMT
I assume as in the thread Title, a certain Mr Hamilton |
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Post by scouse on Jun 9, 2020 9:29:05 GMT
Problem with tearing down Colston's statue is were do you stop? Literally every wealthy figure in the late 17th & early 18th century was involved in the slave trade directly or indirectly. Colston was as part of The Royal Africa Compnay. He was part of the company 12 years (1680-1692), eventually heading it in 1689-90. You know who elese was involved in the RAC? King Charles II, King James II, Samuel Pepys and John Locke (the 'Father of Liberalism').
What's next, George Washington's statue? St Paul's Cathedral? Tear down Chester's walls as the Roman's held slaves? The Colesseum?
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 9, 2020 9:34:10 GMT
I assume as in the thread Title, a certain Mr Hamilton Oh, right. I got a bit lost in all the furore. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 9, 2020 10:08:13 GMT
I remember watching one of these ancestry programmes where a British mixed race actress went to the Caribbean to discover her slavery roots and it turned out her black ancestors were slave owners. She found it really difficult to rationalise in her head.
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Post by johnc on Jun 9, 2020 10:10:19 GMT
Problem with tearing down Colston's statue is were do you stop? Literally every wealthy figure in the late 17th & early 18th century was involved in the slave trade directly or indirectly. Colston was as part of The Royal Africa Compnay. He was part of the company 12 years (1680-1692), eventually heading it in 1689-90. You know who elese was involved in the RAC? King Charles II, King James II, Samuel Pepys and John Locke (the 'Father of Liberalism'). What's next, George Washington's statue? St Paul's Cathedral? Tear down Chester's walls as the Roman's held slaves? The Colesseum? I am a little tired of those who state that they harbour resentment and anger because of things that happened hundreds of years ago when the world was a totally different place and people thought totally differently. A lot of these arguments are just excuses to cause trouble or to vent anger: possibly the anger stems from present problems but you can't sort those if you blame the problem on something that happened all that time ago. I also don't look at any of the statues of the great men of the past and think they were slave traders. They did what they did because that was what happened back then (like children being sent to work at 8 years old, boys stuffed up chimneys and servants paid a pittance and expected to serve 24hrs a day). Most of the slaves were sold to the white traders by other black men looking to rid themselves of tribes they didn't like. I am afraid that was history and destroying history won't make the future better. Learning from it will. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 9, 2020 10:50:04 GMT
I do think the Colston statue thing could have been handled better, apparently it has been a bone of contention for a long time. Perhaps it could have been moved to an area where it's context could have been explained better? Maybe a commemorative statue or frieze to recognize the suffering slaves went through on the Middle Passage.
If we just take down these statues, change the name of roads and buildings, are we not just whitewashing a dark period of our history out of existence through embarrassment? How does that help us educate the young?
On a brighter, more positive note, maybe they'll pull down Liverpool now as the whole place was built on slavery.
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Post by Tim on Jun 9, 2020 11:20:45 GMT
I wonder how other countries with a more recent, er, dark period manage to cope?
Germany for example.
I'm not aware of them running around publicly wringing their hands over what happened in living memory. Does the example of current reaction to the slave trade give an indication of where Ze Fatherland will be in 250 years time?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 11:26:04 GMT
I'm not sure education is what a lot of people want. There were a bunch of students complaining about slavery a few years ago. They were demanding compensation for the suffering and angst they were going through because of slavery. Essentially it is impossible to compensate for stupidity and I do not think we should start doing so. If someone has a problem with the current situation then it should be addressed but demanding money for what happened that far back is pointless and a waste of energy that could be channeled more positively. Of course to the media, the angst will always be better press.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 9, 2020 11:42:24 GMT
I wonder how other countries with a more recent, er, dark period manage to cope? Germany for example. I'm not aware of them running around publicly wringing their hands over what happened in living memory. Does the example of current reaction to the slave trade give an indication of where Ze Fatherland will be in 250 years time? I think Germany has done a lot of apologising and hand wringing over the years since WW2. Austria always gets off lightly - the greatest PR stunt ever pulled off was Austria convincing the world Hitler was German. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 12:14:16 GMT
I remember watching one of these ancestry programmes where a British mixed race actress went to the Caribbean to discover her slavery roots and it turned out her black ancestors were slave owners. She found it really difficult to rationalise in her head. Lots of examples like that, this story is a good example and would appear to have been happening in the 20th century. www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/my-great-grandfather-the-nigerian-slave-traderThere were black slave traders, yes, but this is easily explained away by it having been the white man that taught them the practice. You don't get off that easily whitey! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 12:22:19 GMT
Black tribes were selling conquered tribes as far back as the Greeks and Romans.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 12:28:28 GMT
But it was the Romans' and Greeks' fault for buying them, though, obviously. They were white, innit.
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 9, 2020 12:29:18 GMT
I wonder how other countries with a more recent, er, dark period manage to cope? Germany for example. I'm not aware of them running around publicly wringing their hands over what happened in living memory. Does the example of current reaction to the slave trade give an indication of where Ze Fatherland will be in 250 years time? I think Germany has done a lot of apologising and hand wringing over the years since WW2. Austria always gets off lightly - the greatest PR stunt ever pulled off was Austria convincing the world Hitler was German. Whoa! A long visit to Germany, attendance at school there and watching TV etc. might be required Tim  I don't think Germany have any concerns on the apologising / lessons learned front but maybe in a couple of centuries time the NSDA period may be considered a huge success (with some side effects) in rebuilding German engineering and affirming their status on the world stage in technological development. I agree on Austria - always get the unused sub role in most reviews of the period and I had a debate with my friend as to why I wanted to retire there on the basis of it never having been invaded for a very long period. "What about the Anschluss?" he asked. "There's a difference between an invasion and opening the door and saying do come in and we'll all share everything we have," I replied. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 12:47:04 GMT
This thing will never ever go away if you ask me. There will always be some black people who hold a grudge for something that happened to someone they don't know which has caused them to live in a poor neighbourhood/be unemployed/ be in a gang/ to be a criminal (delete as applicable) and there will always be some white people who refuse to apologise for it, either because they are actually racist or because they simply don't feel they should have to.
BLM - they finally invented perpetual motion. Will roll on forever more...
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Post by michael on Jun 9, 2020 12:49:57 GMT
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 9, 2020 12:55:09 GMT
Flippancy aside I'm sure a few of you have seen the clip of the FBI stats on crime in the USA (all stats are US). In short for those that haven't: - Black males are 58% of those killed legally in self defence - high percentage but 75% of those are killed by other black people.
- Black men make up 6.5% of the US Population and commit the highest proportion of all murders (40% on current data) - some disproportion there but not really favourable.
- Black men mainly murder other black people and white people mainly other white people - we're all at it.
- Black people are 27 times more likely to attack white people than vice versa
- 90% of black people that are murdered die at the hands of other black people.
Like my own views the video contains stuff that equates to the issue not being about BLM because if it did this would be addressed first and foremost. If I'm honest then one could argue that there is an element of white-controlled society basically leaving them to it - I was at a meeting years ago when someone pointed out that in Operation Trident when one black gang member was killed the operational officers knew who was likely to be next in revenge. They didn't stop it but they knew how to control the situation to keep bystander's safe. However using statistics based on actual events would get you flamed on social media, at a meeting, in a rally and very likely in parliament / the senate.
Another view is that because of these statistics there will be someone that insists it's someone else's fault and using skin colour and differing culture to blame others for your own cultural and societal issues is a common response. After all we have Brexit.
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Post by johnc on Jun 9, 2020 13:41:51 GMT
What a way of inciting lots of unrest where it neither exists nor is wanted. My brother in law is normally fairly placid but when you mention the Highland clearances you would think it only happened last week and that he was personally involved. This is going to stir up a whole load of trouble that is much better left in the past and treated as history and not something personal. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 13:42:13 GMT
I strongly believe that multiculturalism will never work until everyone is on the same page, but we're not all reading the same book. I, for one, as a devout atheist, will never be popping down to Waterstones for a copy of the Quran, but for some, that's the only book in their life.
Happy to be proven wrong, but I don't believe I'll see it in my lifetime, as it has gotten continually worse since I can remember. I grew up in Slough and had Irish neighbours one side, Indian the other, my best friends were from Tanzania and my grandfather was mixed race, so to me it feels like we're moving further away from love thy neighbour rather than towards it.
Homo Sapiens is a properly fucked up creature!
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 9, 2020 13:46:37 GMT
I strongly believe that multiculturalism will never work until everyone is on the same page, but we're not all reading the same book. I, for one, as a devout atheist, will never be popping down to Waterstones for a copy of the Quran, but for some, that's the only book in their life. Happy to be proven wrong, but I don't believe I'll see it in my lifetime, as it has gotten continually worse since I can remember. I grew up in Slough and had Irish neighbours one side, Indian the other, my best friends were from Tanzania and my grandfather was mixed race, so to me it feels like we're moving further away from love thy neighbour rather than towards it. Homo Sapiens is a properly fucked up creature! De-evolution, or Devo as the band is called. They called this out in the late '60s / early '70s - we're not getting better but worse. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 13:55:47 GMT
I think it was my great great grandfather who married a black lady from Portugal. My grandad was brown as a berry but married my nan who was virtually translucent, which is why I fry to a crisp in the sun! I can only imagine how that mixed race marriage must've been perceived back then as it would have been when Victoria was still alive.
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Post by Tim on Jun 9, 2020 14:02:26 GMT
I think Germany has done a lot of apologising and hand wringing over the years since WW2. Austria always gets off lightly - the greatest PR stunt ever pulled off was Austria convincing the world Hitler was German. Whoa! A long visit to Germany, attendance at school there and watching TV etc. might be required Tim I don't think Germany have any concerns on the apologising / lessons learned front but maybe in a couple of centuries time the NSDA period may be considered a huge success (with some side effects) in rebuilding German engineering and affirming their status on the world stage in technological development. I agree on Austria - always get the unused sub role in most reviews of the period and I had a debate with my friend as to why I wanted to retire there on the basis of it never having been invaded for a very long period. "What about the Anschluss?" he asked. "There's a difference between an invasion and opening the door and saying do come in and we'll all share everything we have," I replied. I don't think I worded my query very well. I'm sure/sort of know that they have but there's generally very little reporting of it nowadays across here (which I think is probably right). I've only been to Germany twice, both times when we helped my brother-in-law to Czech and all we did was travel through with a couple of stops for a burger and coffee. It was also dark so I have only seen a tiny little bit of it in daylight and it was in a van so I didn't even get to enjoy the Autobahn. |
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Post by Tim on Jun 9, 2020 14:07:52 GMT
What a way of inciting lots of unrest where it neither exists nor is wanted. My brother in law is normally fairly placid but when you mention the Highland clearances you would think it only happened last week and that he was personally involved. This is going to stir up a whole load of trouble that is much better left in the past and treated as history and not something personal. Why the hell is a 'Stop Trump Coalition' setting that up in the UK? We can't vote for the stupid Orange Man. Leave us alone. |
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Post by michael on Jun 9, 2020 14:14:19 GMT
I noticed we had a silence in parliament for the guy killed in the US. They did that for Jamal Khashoggi too, right?
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