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Post by Big Blue on Nov 3, 2022 18:35:30 GMT
As we have some accountants on here can they explain how the BoE Monetary Policy Unit thinks making borrowing for the peasants more expensive will make inflation fall when the stated items causing the bulk of inflation are food, fuel and raw materials. I can understand that the last item might see reduced expenditure as projects get put on hold or stopped altogether if the financing of them leads to unviable outcomes but there is no control over the main inflation drivers that I can see.
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Post by LandieMark on Nov 3, 2022 20:51:55 GMT
I can't help thinking that the BOE needs to moderate its language somewhat. Threatening us with the worst recession for over 100 years is hardly going to stabilise the markets, but what the hell do I know.
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Post by Alex on Nov 4, 2022 0:44:16 GMT
Putting up interest rates harms the population as a whole by pushing up mortgage rates and loans for big ticket items such as cars so the theory is that this dampens down demand and these items become cheaper. Only both houses and cars are in such short supply that this does seem like it won't have the desired effect.
It does also mean that we have less disposable income so spend less on leisure activities and buying lots of pointless stuff which also should see those items become cheaper. But the price of a pint in a pub heading towards £7 is not because the pubs have decided that they weren't making enough profit and are now coining it in so again I struggle to see how this will work at present.
I do think that the average man on the street will feel the pinch from this and probably sees the Bank of England as being a right bunch of cunts for kicking us when we're down and probably feels that if they wanted to help the country surely they would reduce interest rates not push them even higher.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 4, 2022 6:36:08 GMT
As we have some accountants on here can they explain how the BoE Monetary Policy Unit thinks making borrowing for the peasants more expensive will make inflation fall when the stated items causing the bulk of inflation are food, fuel and raw materials. I can understand that the last item might see reduced expenditure as projects get put on hold or stopped altogether if the financing of them leads to unviable outcomes but there is no control over the main inflation drivers that I can see. I’m glad it’s not just me scratching their head at these rises and statements, they will not effect the drivers of inflation and just remove money from the economy, hastening the recession they are predicting.
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Post by Alex on Nov 4, 2022 7:40:38 GMT
There are some who might argue that this is no bad thing. Better to be in recession so we are nearer the other side of it than be sat waiting for a looming recession. Not sure if that stands up to logic or not given that this could be our worst recession in a very long time.
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Post by johnc on Nov 4, 2022 8:58:36 GMT
I think there is more than a degree of disagreement between the BoE and the Government and this latest interest rise might be a bit of putting the boot in. It all just adds to our dysfunctional system.
I also think there has been a lot of profiteering over the last 6 to 9 months with prices rising much more than they need to - our main software supplier has just upped their annual costs by more than 15% but I don't see how their costs could ever have increased that much, especially when they increased prices last year by just under 10%!
In the current economic climate I also don't believe that hiking interest rates is going to do anything other than cause massive hardship when as BB says, the main components of the price rises are the basic items like food, heating, fuel. I am concerned that the media and the Unions are hyping the issue and pushing for 15% increases in salaries. If that becomes widespread then prices will really take off as businesses are forced to put large increases on their prices which then just fuels more demands for higher wages. We need some calming oil on the waters and we need to avoid major knee jerk reactions from all involved.
I am really not sure that anyone really knows how to deal with this crisis which has many more variables in it that most previous troublesome times!
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Post by PetrolEd on Nov 4, 2022 9:21:32 GMT
We have our mortgage due in 11 months time. I realise I should have acted 6 months ago but having missed the boat should I act now. Pay the fee for settling early and paying the over inflated rates currently on offer or take my chances on the rates not being so over inflated in 11months time as recession kicks in? Coming off a 1.79% rate I really am pooping it.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 4, 2022 9:42:54 GMT
We have our mortgage due in 11 months time. I realise I should have acted 6 months ago but having missed the boat should I act now. Pay the fee for settling early and paying the over inflated rates currently on offer or take my chances on the rates not being so over inflated in 11months time as recession kicks in? Coming off a 1.79% rate I really am pooping it. I am in no way qualified to give any advice on mortgages, but advice I have seen given suggests it's not worth paying the fee for settling early and taking out a new deal now, rather wait for a year and the longer term fixes are expected to fall a bit.
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Post by PetrolEd on Nov 4, 2022 10:36:23 GMT
We have our mortgage due in 11 months time. I realise I should have acted 6 months ago but having missed the boat should I act now. Pay the fee for settling early and paying the over inflated rates currently on offer or take my chances on the rates not being so over inflated in 11months time as recession kicks in? Coming off a 1.79% rate I really am pooping it. I am in no way qualified to give any advice on mortgages, but advice I have seen given suggests it's not worth paying the fee for settling early and taking out a new deal now, rather wait for a year and the longer term fixes are expected to fall a bit. Cheers Bob, its kind of where I see it but its a risky strategy. Running cost comparisons before yesterday looked pretty bleak. Think I'll have to put my blinkers on until next year and hope for the best.
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Post by bryan on Nov 4, 2022 12:20:33 GMT
It cost me £4k in July to break out of the last 18months of our 3.99% 10yr fix....and we refixed at 2.25% for another 10 years and hopefully will clear the mortgage in that time.
In your situation I'd be tempted to stay put and see what happens, as you'll lose your lower rate when you switch .
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Post by Martin on Nov 4, 2022 13:06:56 GMT
I am in no way qualified to give any advice on mortgages, but advice I have seen given suggests it's not worth paying the fee for settling early and taking out a new deal now, rather wait for a year and the longer term fixes are expected to fall a bit. Cheers Bob, its kind of where I see it but its a risky strategy. Running cost comparisons before yesterday looked pretty bleak. Think I'll have to put my blinkers on until next year and hope for the best. Things are so unpredictable it's impossible to say what is the best way way forward, but in your position I would be putting the blinkers on and worrying about it next year too. We were looking at 3/5/10 year fixes in March 2021 and the rate back then felt a bit too good to be true, so I signed up for 10 years at 1.89% (14 yr term). At that rate I won't do anything to pay it off early, but will review that decision again in a few years time.
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Post by johnc on Nov 4, 2022 13:35:15 GMT
We have our mortgage due in 11 months time. I realise I should have acted 6 months ago but having missed the boat should I act now. Pay the fee for settling early and paying the over inflated rates currently on offer or take my chances on the rates not being so over inflated in 11months time as recession kicks in? Coming off a 1.79% rate I really am pooping it. You've got nothing to lose by sitting it out with your current deal. I am hopeful that after the budget (which is going to be a tax raising one) and 6 months after that, we should see a bit of stability even if it is slightly painful. The stability should allow the banks and Building Societies to be a bit more reasonable in their approach. I made the mistake, back in the turmoil of 2009, to fix our mortgage for 5 years at 5.75% because I was concerned about what might happen in the market. Within a year mortgage rates were down at about 2% and I felt a bit of a fool. We have 2 years left of a 1.89% 5 year deal and 5 years till the mortgage is finished. However I decided to overpay as soon as we got the mortgage and by using some of our savings when the fixed rate deal ends, I think we might be able to clear it.
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Post by Stuntman on Nov 4, 2022 14:48:26 GMT
I suppose the only way to rationalise it from the Bank of England's point of view is that their mandate is to control inflation and they have been given a target to keep it below 2% (ha ha). They only have a limited amount of levers to pull in order to attempt to do this.
The main one is interest rates, so they have to raise them in an attempt to reduce consumer demand and provide a better incentive to save. The Bank cannot really control monetary policy any more, quantitative easing/printing money and low interest rates have driven up spending and inflated the prices of certain assets.
Given that I currently have more savings than interest-bearing debt I am 'happy' for interest rates to rise in order to provide a little more stability in the equity markets.
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Post by johnc on Nov 4, 2022 15:30:06 GMT
I am 'happy' for interest rates to rise in order to provide a little more stability in the equity markets. But higher interest rates normally lead to money leaving the equity markets to find a safer home in a bank or other interest paying commodity. This then depresses the stock values until such time as profits improve to provide a dividend yield sufficiently high enough to make the risk worth taking again. However I agree that the recent moves are more likely than not to provide some stability as long as the BOE don't try to increase interest rates by much (or any) more. Strangely the Americans are being a bit more subdued in their interest rate rises despite their inflation being just as bad as ours. Unfortunately for us all, the easiest way for the countries who engaged in quantative easing and took on lots of debt, is to have inflation run for a few years and reduce the value of that debt.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 4, 2022 16:59:53 GMT
I was under the impression that a big part of the problem is that the US has been quicker to raise interest rates than the UK and Europe, strengthening the dollar at the expense of the pound and euro, making global commodities traded in dollars more expensive for us, fuelling inflation. I believe US rates are still a full percentage point above ours.
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Post by ChrisM on Nov 4, 2022 21:19:54 GMT
When people are already struggling to pay all their bills due to higher energy costs (gas, electric and their car's fuel), struggling to pay higher food bills etc, I do not see how also increasing mortgage and loan payments is going to help curb inflation. Surely it will only make people ask for higher wages, which in turn fuels further inflation.
Looks a complete and utter mess to me, IMHO all the government had to do was keep energy costs down (subsidise if necessary) since that would have stopped most of the cost increases associated with the use of energy and we wouldn't now have people demanding huge wage rises because so many bills have gone up so much. the fall of the pound hasn't helped matters either as we import so much. I fear that the BoE may be right and we are in for a pretty gruesome couple of years - maybe longer if the Russians can't see sense and be made to stop their wars (one war is with Ukraine using bombs, the other is on the Western world by using high energy prices)
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Post by michael on Nov 4, 2022 21:59:24 GMT
It also doesn’t help that we’ve tethered ourselves to unreliable and therefore incredibly expensive forms of energy in renewables so we’re handicapped when it comes to competition on the global stage. Factor in the NIMBYism that strangles house building in this country, that in turn causes property to be far more expensive than it should be, and you end up with less disposable income in the first place. Liz Truss was right in so much as unpopular decisions need to be made if we’re to avoid further decline.
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Post by Alex on Nov 5, 2022 7:23:08 GMT
We've tethered ourselves to renewables because it costs a shit ton of money to build nukes and the people who build them can't seem to do so in a way that ends up with a reliable power plant built to anywhere near resembling budget (just look at how much trouble the French are having with theirs) so that leaves us with the only other option being to burn stuff to make energy and unfortunately their ain't a lot you can burn which hasn't been subject to global high prices.
With climate change not just being scientific theory but actually visible in the real world and no longer just affecting poor people in far away places, a global energy price crisis has in many ways come along at a wonderful time. Renewable energy may be less reliable when using it on a just-in-time basis but with more and more storage technologies coming to market it makes much more sense to push towards them and not to new nuclear plants. It also might see people learning to live using less energy. For the last decade we've been using cheap gas to fuel our desire to have more and more electrical devices in our homes and building more and more data centres to run our digital services and at some point you have to question the sustainability of that way of life.
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Post by ChrisM on Nov 5, 2022 7:33:34 GMT
Liz Truss was right in so much as unpopular decisions need to be made if we’re to avoid further decline. Who is Liz Truss??
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Post by johnc on Nov 5, 2022 8:35:04 GMT
I was under the impression that a big part of the problem is that the US has been quicker to raise interest rates than the UK and Europe, strengthening the dollar at the expense of the pound and euro, making global commodities traded in dollars more expensive for us, fuelling inflation. I believe US rates are still a full percentage point above ours. US interest rates are higher but they are slowing down their interest rate increases whereas we are accelerating ours.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 5, 2022 8:36:52 GMT
We've tethered ourselves to renewables because it costs a shit ton of money to build nukes and the people who build them can't seem to do so in a way that ends up with a reliable power plant built to anywhere near resembling budget (just look at how much trouble the French are having with theirs) so that leaves us with the only other option being to burn stuff to make energy and unfortunately their ain't a lot you can burn which hasn't been subject to global high prices. With climate change not just being scientific theory but actually visible in the real world and no longer just affecting poor people in far away places, a global energy price crisis has in many ways come along at a wonderful time. Renewable energy may be less reliable when using it on a just-in-time basis but with more and more storage technologies coming to market it makes much more sense to push towards them and not to new nuclear plants. It also might see people learning to live using less energy. For the last decade we've been using cheap gas to fuel our desire to have more and more electrical devices in our homes and building more and more data centres to run our digital services and at some point you have to question the sustainability of that way of life. We’ve been using cheap gas as part of the transaction to net zero. Generating electricity via gas produces half the CO2 compared to coal. Despite more devices we’re using less electricity now as they use far less power than in previous years.
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Post by michael on Nov 5, 2022 10:36:03 GMT
We've tethered ourselves to renewables because it costs a shit ton of money to build nukes and the people who build them can't seem to do so in a way that ends up with a reliable power plant built to anywhere near resembling budget (just look at how much trouble the French are having with theirs) so that leaves us with the only other option being to burn stuff to make energy and unfortunately their ain't a lot you can burn which hasn't been subject to global high prices. With climate change not just being scientific theory but actually visible in the real world and no longer just affecting poor people in far away places, a global energy price crisis has in many ways come along at a wonderful time. Renewable energy may be less reliable when using it on a just-in-time basis but with more and more storage technologies coming to market it makes much more sense to push towards them and not to new nuclear plants. It also might see people learning to live using less energy. For the last decade we've been using cheap gas to fuel our desire to have more and more electrical devices in our homes and building more and more data centres to run our digital services and at some point you have to question the sustainability of that way of life. Renewables are very expensive when they’re not producing. We have a lot of gas under our feet which we choose not to use and yet complain about being poorer. Climate change is a fact. It’s been a fact since before humans and will be a fact after humans.
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Post by Big Blue on Nov 5, 2022 15:59:44 GMT
Climate change is a fact. It’s been a fact since before humans and will be a fact after humans. This. Mankind has to face the fact that we are totally irrelevant to the Earth we inhabit and the natural universe as a whole. Just like the dinosaurs when nature is fed up with us it will find a way to fuck us off for good - giant meteor strike; plunging towards the sun in a gravitational change; sunk under the seas; loss of potable water or simply self immolation of some kind. There are so many ways mankind has the possibility to end its time concentrating on delaying one is utter folly. Until we recognise the real issue and prevent idiots like me having 5 more CO2 producers and allow the old and infirm to be euthanised all the changes being made and planned are just like pissing into the wind.
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Post by Alex on Nov 5, 2022 16:55:15 GMT
Across the world a lot less people like you are producing 5 more CO2 producers. Birth rates have been dropping dramatically across the first world and the BRIC nations leading to a looming labour shortage crisis which is already starting to bite in some rather important industries (food production being the main one). Our biggest problem is not so much population growth as population not dying soon enough.
Setting aside the climate change issues this is also one of our biggest reasons behind the fucked-ness of our economy. Put simply, much as I love my grandmother, we don't have an economy designed for her reaching the ripe old age of 93 to be a rather unremarkable occurrence. The only way to tackle that issue is to stop people retiring in their 60s and start squeezing more tax out of those in work and through unavoidable taxes such as VAT which will probably need to rise to at least 22%.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Nov 5, 2022 18:11:27 GMT
I absolutely believe the scientists that are raising the issues with global warming. I’m also acutely aware I also believed the scientists in the 80s that were concerned with global cooling and that we were heading for a new ice age.
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Post by michael on Nov 5, 2022 18:28:17 GMT
I absolutely believe the scientists that are raising the issues with global warming. I’m also acutely aware I also believed the scientists in the 80s that were concerned with global cooling and that we were heading for a new ice age. It’s hard to find a climate prediction that’s ever been right.
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Post by PG on Nov 7, 2022 16:16:13 GMT
There are four reasons why interest rates are rising. (1) the US are raising rates and the USD is rising against all other currencies. So USD denominated stuff - oil, gas, commodities, wheat futures etc etc - all cost more in £ driving inflation. The US raised rates faster than us or the European central Bank, so we're playing catch up. (2) the bank is using what they like to call "demand management" (aka a recession) by raising borrowing rates to kill off domestic demand and hence (they hope) inflation (or so the text books will have convinced them). (3) as they can't unwind QE, interest rates are about the only tool they have. And so to be seen to "do something" they raise rates. (4) QE has hugely inflated the money supply since 2008. Eventually that has to be unwound or dealt with in some way. They can't unwind QE (as that part of the theory of QE has never really been tried and like most theories does not stand a meeting with the real word). So instead they raise rates.
Currently there are numerous massive issues with whatever course of action that might be followed. (1) All logic says that going into a recession (caused by higher energy prices), rates should actually be falling. But of course they were already at rock bottom, had been there too long and that's basically utterly fucked the logic of money supply and demand. So we have rates rising into a recession. (2) The can that was kicked down the road in 2008 is now starting to fall apart from all the continued kicking. Too many central banks (and politicians) thought that they has suspended the laws of economics in 2008 (I give you one "G Brown" who claimed to have "saved the world economy"). Nope. We're here in the process of having the laws of economics re-explained to us. The era of cheap money is probably over. Capitalism (with targeted support for individuals not corporations) should have been allowed to take its course in 2008. (3) Independent central banks were an idea for good times. In tough times they simply don't work. All the levers of control - interest rates, taxation, spending, borrowing - need to be managed in consort. (4) Finally a piece in today's paper pointed out that all the oh so clever central bankers may have actually shot themselves carefully in the head with QE and interest rate rises. In QE (theory), to maintain liquidity in a crisis, central banks bought (or swapped) government bonds that commercial banks held for cash balances with the central bank. This allowed the banks to lend more, so helping the economy. So in its books the central bank has a government bond (fixed interest) that it should receive income from the government for. As interest rates rise, then bond values fall to compensate so that the yield remains competitive. Therefore the bonds that the central bank hold have fallen in value and so the central bank, by raising interest rates, is reducing the assets its holds and is therefore capable of making itself technically insolvent. QE has been the biggest con trick ad disaster in the making ever. Well, up there with Target 2 balances in the Euro area.
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Post by Big Blue on Nov 7, 2022 18:12:26 GMT
I knew one of you would explain it. Also glad that I’m not stupid in thinking they’re idiots raising the rates.
Japan had negative rates for ages, making people spend and not save as there was no benefit. Let’s have that and fuck the inflation. There’s little cash use these days so we won’t be carrying barrow loads of Reichmarks about. Then after a period of time the treasury can revalue the pound by crossing a zero off the end.
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Post by PG on Nov 7, 2022 22:40:43 GMT
Japan had negative rates for ages, making people spend and not save as there was no benefit. Let’s have that and fuck the inflation. There’s little cash use these days so we won’t be carrying barrow loads of Reichmarks about. Then after a period of time the treasury can revalue the pound by crossing a zero off the end. Japan has been able to run with negative rates for ages as there are two key differences. 90% of Japanese government bonds are owned by either the BoJ or Japanese people and Japan runs a current account surplus so does not need foreign investment to survive. The UK runs a current account trade deficit so that can be funded in two ways - the currency depreciates and / or overseas people buying UK government bonds ("gilts"). Raising interest rates is the way used to defend the currency and encourage overseas buyers to hold gilts. Which means that to keep the UK solvent, we need higher rates. But to have higher rates, we have to suffer a recession. Great choice. Italy used to be a good example of your "Let’s have that and fuck the inflation" approach. It sort of worked for them - in benign economic times (which kept inflation lower) and so long as you accepted the enormous north-south wealth divide in the country. The Lira steadily depreciated against all other currencies as the country lived beyond its means. Until they joined the Euro and having a fixed exchange rate has basically knackered them completely. And in fact the UK - despite the fact we don't like to admit it - has followed the same path as Italy but to a lesser degree. In 1900 the exchange rate was £1 = $5. During the American Civil War it was briefly at $10. But 100 years of spending more than we earn - including of course fighting two world wars - has left us where we are today at $1.12.
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Post by johnc on Nov 8, 2022 9:07:50 GMT
Since we can no longer rely on the dominance and wealth generated in the markets in London, post Brexit, we need to start making things in the UK again and sell them to other countries to help balance the trade deficit. However I fear that, as has been the case for the past 50+ years, there is little appetite to fund the creation of manufacturing in the UK and all our ideas will continue to get snapped up by foreign investors and be made elsewhere.
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