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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 11:39:27 GMT
Germany is an outlier and it’s not properly understood why other than perhaps discipline and poverty levels. The UK has some of the highest levels of deprivation in Europe and there’s a clear link to deaths with COVID.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 30, 2021 13:39:21 GMT
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 13:46:33 GMT
Yes it’s absolutely true. The deprivation in places like Middlesbrough is staggering and there’s a high correlation between ethnicity and deprivation which seems to compound matters.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 30, 2021 14:19:38 GMT
That's what I'd understood, which is why the FF report surprised me.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 14:38:54 GMT
The full fact article is right but on its measure but like any statistic it doesn’t tell the whole story. At a national level the UK doesn’t have a high level of poverty but at a regional things change. Comparing regional geographies across Europe we have some of the richest regions by quite a margin but we also have some of the poorest. I think Scotland is particularly poorly represented but so is the North East and West. Take out the South East of England and the country is quite embarrassingly deprived.
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Post by garry on Mar 30, 2021 16:28:30 GMT
The full fact article is right but on its measure but like any statistic it doesn’t tell the whole story. At a national level the UK doesn’t have a high level of poverty but at a regional things change. Comparing regional geographies across Europe we have some of the richest regions by quite a margin but we also have some of the poorest. I think Scotland is particularly poorly represented but so is the North East and West. Take out the South East of England and the country is quite embarrassingly deprived. Isn’t this all about relative deprivation? Like those Rowntree reports that define poverty as not having a ps5? Seems like a whole heap of nonsense to me. I’ve got family in Middlesbrough, Darlington, Blackpool. You pick your northern shithole and I’ll have relatives in residence. They’re not deprived, they’re living the life they actively choose; do some cash in hand, get some benefits, get high, repeat. You could give them all the money on earth and they’d do the same thing, just in a Gucci tracksuit. Being born British is a golden ticket - 90% of the worlds population would kill for the chance of free education, free health, safety net. Those deprived areas are full of people who took every opportunity they were given and threw it away.
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Post by michael on Apr 1, 2021 10:59:51 GMT
In Europe, not in the world. Parts of Middlesbrough not all of Middlesbrough.
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Post by PetrolEd on Apr 1, 2021 12:45:34 GMT
Got my Jab booked for 14/4. Looking forward to getting it done and at 44 I thought I might end up having to wait a few month due to the supposed shortage in vaccines.
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Post by garry on Apr 1, 2021 12:51:35 GMT
In Europe, not in the world. Parts of Middlesbrough not all of Middlesbrough. If deprivation corelates to covid than why stop that analysis at European borders? The poorest places in the world have very low covid death rates. Deprivation only counts in Europe? The parts of Middlesbrough and Blackpool I know are Grove Hill and Layton. I'm from Stanley in Co Durham. I know my shitholes. You can look at the data all day long but I know these places and these people. Deprivation is not the issue. It's actually almost the opposite - the government has c reated a culture dependency and constructed a safety net that gilt tripping liberals keep trying to raise a little higher by turning deprivation into a relative term whilst the inhabitants of said shitholes find it pretty easy to live the life they choose to live (not the life you and I choose) on the money they get.
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Post by michael on Apr 1, 2021 13:30:44 GMT
In Europe, not in the world. Parts of Middlesbrough not all of Middlesbrough. If deprivation corelates to covid than why stop that analysis at European borders? The poorest places in the world have very low covid death rates. Deprivation only counts in Europe? The parts of Middlesbrough and Blackpool I know are Grove Hill and Layton. I'm from Stanley in Co Durham. I know my shitholes. You can look at the data all day long but I know these places and these people. Deprivation is not the issue. It's actually almost the opposite - the government has c reated a culture dependency and constructed a safety net that gilt tripping liberals keep trying to raise a little higher by turning deprivation into a relative term whilst the inhabitants of said shitholes find it pretty easy to live the life they choose to live (not the life you and I choose) on the money they get. I was talking about deprivation in general when I mentioned we have some of the highest levels of deprivation in Europe. Those in deprived areas are more likely to die younger than those not anyway, COVID is perhaps a reflection of that. Whether the government created the situation was not my point, but I would also say the NHS has been a help and a hindrance during the pandemic.
As to your deprivation only counts in Europe point, there does tenuously at least seem to be something in that. The UK has noticed ethnic minorities have been disproportionately affected by COVID but the same trend in cases is not repeated in the those countries where those same ethnicities originate. This suggests that it's a range of lifestyle factors are more exclusive to UK located deprived communities that result in health outcomes that adversely affect respective COVID outcomes - that might support both your point and mine. Conclusive evidence as to what exactly is going on here hasn't yet been established but if I were a betting man I'd start with diet and activity levels.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2021 13:31:00 GMT
Sara used to work in a health centre very close to a Jaguar plant soon to be reasigned within the company. The majority of the inhabitants have lived on the dole their whole lives, generationally in fact. The levels of obesity in children is through the roof yet most flats have sky tv and the electronic toys to the point that the kids are in a large percentage watching tv or playing games and have difficulty socialising outside of these pastimes.
My friends live near a juvenile detention centre and kids go back repeatedly because they would rather be there than at home. What do these things say?
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Post by Alex on Apr 1, 2021 15:09:07 GMT
Perhaps the issue that we have in this country is that when you think of deprivation on a global scale you think malnutrition through starvation but in the UK its malnutrition based on poor diet whereby a lot of people living in deprived areas are perfectly capable of filling their bellies to the point of obesity but the food they fill it with is so nutritionally poor that they end up with severe health problems which leave them unable to fend off the effects of the Covid-19 virus. That's not to say that the middle and upper classes dont have their fair share of fatties, but in other less developed countries they're the only classes that are overweight whereas in our country the poor are too.
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 1, 2021 15:15:58 GMT
In Europe, not in the world. Parts of Middlesbrough not all of Middlesbrough. If deprivation corelates to covid than why stop that analysis at European borders? The poorest places in the world have very low covid death rates. Deprivation only counts in Europe? The parts of Middlesbrough and Blackpool I know are Grove Hill and Layton. I'm from Stanley in Co Durham. I know my shitholes. You can look at the data all day long but I know these places and these people. Deprivation is not the issue. It's actually almost the opposite - the government has c reated a culture dependency and constructed a safety net that gilt tripping liberals keep trying to raise a little higher by turning deprivation into a relative term whilst the inhabitants of said shitholes find it pretty easy to live the life they choose to live (not the life you and I choose) on the money they get. Haha, my dad's family are all from Afganistanley. It is a real shithole - they are all on Shield Row which is one of the better parts. At least it isn't South Moor. I also know Grove Hill as I was on a jury for a murder that took place there.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 1, 2021 15:58:38 GMT
My BiL is from Helmand. He lives in Moravia and is an oncologist. He’s never pined for Afghanistan and will laugh at our version of “deprivation”.
My dad was born in the centre of Brum in 1939 and lived there until 1955. You can imagine what his neighbourhood looked like as he was growing up. He had no time for modern “deprivation”.
When my dad was living in Estoril in the late 80s as “our man in Lisbon” I recall climbing the hills of Lisbon and looking down at a huge shanty town, made of corrugated materials and old timber - an exact replica of the Brasilian favelas. Those people would laugh at our “deprivation” levels.
Various sectors of society have had to invent “relative poverty” otherwise the “struggle” of the average person would be seen to be generally over, in the same way other groups of society have to be highlighted as different despite their cries to be treated as equal to whatever “normal” is perceived to be.
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Post by garry on Apr 1, 2021 17:39:59 GMT
If deprivation corelates to covid than why stop that analysis at European borders? The poorest places in the world have very low covid death rates. Deprivation only counts in Europe? The parts of Middlesbrough and Blackpool I know are Grove Hill and Layton. I'm from Stanley in Co Durham. I know my shitholes. You can look at the data all day long but I know these places and these people. Deprivation is not the issue. It's actually almost the opposite - the government has c reated a culture dependency and constructed a safety net that gilt tripping liberals keep trying to raise a little higher by turning deprivation into a relative term whilst the inhabitants of said shitholes find it pretty easy to live the life they choose to live (not the life you and I choose) on the money they get. Haha, my dad's family are all from Afganistanley. It is a real shithole - they are all on Shield Row which is one of the better parts. At least it isn't South Moor. I also know Grove Hill as I was on a jury for a murder that took place there. I was born in hollyhill gardens. Above the chip shop. The glamour! I once tried to get a taxi out of Durham station to Stanley to go and see my Grandad and the taxi driver refused point blank to go to Stanley - refused to go there after dark.
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 2, 2021 7:58:55 GMT
My BiL is from Helmand. He lives in Moravia and is an oncologist. He’s never pined for Afghanistan and will laugh at our version of “deprivation”. My dad was born in the centre of Brum in 1939 and lived there until 1955. You can imagine what his neighbourhood looked like as he was growing up. He had no time for modern “deprivation”. When my dad was living in Estoril in the late 80s as “our man in Lisbon” I recall climbing the hills of Lisbon and looking down at a huge shanty town, made of corrugated materials and old timber - an exact replica of the Brasilian favelas. Those people would laugh at our “deprivation” levels. Various sectors of society have had to invent “relative poverty” otherwise the “struggle” of the average person would be seen to be generally over, in the same way other groups of society have to be highlighted as different despite their cries to be treated as equal to whatever “normal” is perceived to be. Yes, I remember there was one on the beach between Vilamoura and Quarteira in the late 80s as well which came as a bit of a shock.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 9, 2021 9:13:04 GMT
Having worked in areas that were said to be in the 1% most deprived areas of the UK, I was always surprised at the amount of top end cars I those areas. Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, BMW, Porsche all in quite high numbers. Casual observation, no scientific basis!
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Post by cbeaks1 on Apr 9, 2021 9:55:17 GMT
Having worked in areas that were said to be in the 1% most deprived areas of the UK, I was always surprised at the amount of top end cars I those areas. Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, BMW, Porsche all in quite high numbers. Casual observation, no scientific basis! Some of that could be Motab. Certainly A Class size stuff. Not so much the Porches though.
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Post by PG on Apr 12, 2021 12:05:27 GMT
Having worked in areas that were said to be in the 1% most deprived areas of the UK, I was always surprised at the amount of top end cars I those areas. Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, BMW, Porsche all in quite high numbers. Casual observation, no scientific basis! Some of that could be Motab. Certainly A Class size stuff. Not so much the Porches though. Rather than A Class, I expect Class A might be more like what some of the expensive metal is all about. That and the cash economy being very active.
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Post by Tim on Apr 12, 2021 13:13:16 GMT
I was speaking to one of my colleagues earlier and they are certain they won't be choosing to get the vaccine for a couple of years until the longer-term effects are better known. Great, they just happen to be one of my direct reports so that'll be a headache in a few weeks time.
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Post by johnc on Apr 12, 2021 14:02:15 GMT
I was speaking to one of my colleagues earlier and they are certain they won't be choosing to get the vaccine for a couple of years until the longer-term effects are better known. Great, they just happen to be one of my direct reports so that'll be a headache in a few weeks time. Surely they just have to work from home if they don't have the vaccination.
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Post by Tim on Apr 12, 2021 14:46:05 GMT
Yes but since they're the main IT person plus deal with the maintenance, etc of the properties they're going to have to be in the office some of the time when things open up.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 12, 2021 15:15:19 GMT
Having worked in areas that were said to be in the 1% most deprived areas of the UK, I was always surprised at the amount of top end cars I those areas. Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, BMW, Porsche all in quite high numbers. Casual observation, no scientific basis! Some of that could be Motab. Certainly A Class size stuff. Not so much the Porches though. Possibly. I've seen a fair few Audi and Mercedes Motability cars of late.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Apr 12, 2021 15:16:00 GMT
Some of that could be Motab. Certainly A Class size stuff. Not so much the Porches though. Rather than A Class, I expect Class A might be more like what some of the expensive metal is all about. Brilliant!
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Post by PetrolEd on Apr 12, 2021 16:23:34 GMT
I was speaking to one of my colleagues earlier and they are certain they won't be choosing to get the vaccine for a couple of years until the longer-term effects are better known. Great, they just happen to be one of my direct reports so that'll be a headache in a few weeks time. I've got the same issue but respect peoples decisions. Not sure I have the right to stop two of the staff working from the office because they won't have a vaccine. I have told them they might need to carry out bi-weekly Lateral Flow tests which went down like a lead balloon and again not sure if I can discriminate against someone just because they don't want a vaccine. No doubt it will be a shit storm when everyone finds out as you've got the extremists on either side of the debate. Ideally everyone would have a vaccine but all I can do is have mine and let everyone else get on with it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2021 17:51:23 GMT
I expect there will be a "Being a hazard to colleagues in the work place" type of clause in the near future but it is possible that a company can claim individual conduct likely or possible to be irresponsible in the work place unless they have a get out clause (Health issues).
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 12, 2021 18:16:02 GMT
Yes but since they're the main IT person plus deal with the maintenance, etc of the properties they're going to have to be in the office some of the time when things open up. Just insist non vaccinated people wear masks at all times and practice social distancing rigorously. They’ll soon get sick of that and get jabbed.
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Post by Alex on Apr 12, 2021 20:47:36 GMT
Yes but since they're the main IT person plus deal with the maintenance, etc of the properties they're going to have to be in the office some of the time when things open up. Just insist non vaccinated people wear masks at all times and practice social distancing rigorously. They’ll soon get sick of that and get jabbed. Either that or they'll start claiming discrimination!
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Post by garry on Apr 13, 2021 6:26:12 GMT
Yes but since they're the main IT person plus deal with the maintenance, etc of the properties they're going to have to be in the office some of the time when things open up. Just insist non vaccinated people wear masks at all times and practice social distancing rigorously. They’ll soon get sick of that and get jabbed. Or perhaps tell the vaccinated people it’s about time they stopped wetting the bed, got back to normal life, and focused on real risks (I.e. will I have a job next year if I keep fannying on about covid).
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Post by johnc on Apr 13, 2021 7:14:01 GMT
As an employer, this is a really difficult situation. You have a duty of care to all your staff and to allow unvaccinated staff to come to the work place MAY increase the risk of vaccinated people taking Covid home or into the wider community. Our HR people are currently drawing up new guidelines but their current advice is that only vaccinated staff should be allowed to return to the office at the moment. The Government guidelines in Scotland still haven't set a date for offices returning to work.
As I typed this post, an e-mail popped up in my inbox from our HR provider with a new online tracker tool to record who has had the vaccine, provide certificates for customers that our staff have been vaccinated and also with videos to help encourage staff to get the vaccine as soon as possible.
Unless there is going to be a Covid exemption for the duty of care an employer has, I don't see how those without a vaccination (unless it is for good medical reasons) can be allowed to carry on as normal, at least not in the short to medium term and not before Covid is no longer a world threat.
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