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Post by LandieMark on Mar 20, 2021 10:16:47 GMT
Same question here, I'm 51 and haven't heard anything. +1. I'm 47 and haven't heard anything, but wouldn't have expected to. I have heart problems so I am on the free flu jab list.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2021 11:35:55 GMT
I have had a third reminder (By phone) to make an appointment for a vaccine they tell me I should not have. Do you think they are desperate or something?
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Post by Roadrunner on Mar 20, 2021 20:18:40 GMT
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Post by Tim on Mar 22, 2021 9:06:54 GMT
Got my blue envelope and Saturday and booked in for Thursday evening so hopefully the side effects will be minor so I can enjoy the weekend.
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Post by Martin on Mar 22, 2021 9:41:45 GMT
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Post by alf on Mar 29, 2021 15:16:12 GMT
For those that like to go on about what a disaster it all is here, and how it's somehow the governments fault that we have a high death rate (when we are a fairly unhealthy nation and also report the deaths more scrupulously than other places) and how no one in any position of authority in this country could fight their way out of a paper bag, consider this.
Tina's parents live in Bavaria, near the regional capital so not in the sticks. One of the wealthiest parts of Germany and also something like the Lake District here in that the health system will be used to dealing with many older people. They are in their 70's and have serious life limiting health conditions that are seen as risk factors for COVID. They - and no one they know - has even been contacted about when a first jab might be offered.
Except, that is, Tina's younger sister who has no health issues and runs half marathons quicker than I do - who works in a non-public facing admin function in the Police - which for me is an example of how our approach of basing things mainly on age/health (except for frontline workers in high risk jobs) was right.
Pretty shocking, from Europe's wealthiest and most organised country.
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 29, 2021 15:51:43 GMT
France is no better: the Mater got hers two days before I got mine here in the UK and only after getting her GP to make sure she was given one as soon as possible as an asthmatic 80 year old. I've said before that Slovakia and Czech Republic are dire in terms rolling this out, with the Sister in law receiving the grand total 15 doses for use among her several hundred patients.
I found out at the weekend that our next door neighbour was in ICU for two weeks with COVID and in typically London fashion his wife never said a word. He's a keen cyclist, as in he's the intake scorer for Kingston Wheelers to assess ability, and if he weren't I fear he would no longer be our neighbour! He advises me that he is currently able to climb the stairs unaided (!) and do 20 minutes on the turbo trainer.
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Post by Tim on Mar 29, 2021 16:15:51 GMT
Did anyone listen to Any Answers on R4 on Saturday? I had to switch it off even faster than usual.
Some bullshit being spoken about how even daring to propose a vaccine passport is un-British (I'm not in favour of it but that terminology is ridiculous, I presume the caller also regularly refers to Blitz Spirit as well) Plus some bloke suggesting that a vaccine is pointless as it isn't 100% effective but regular testing is the way to go (how effective is that, remind me?). When pointed out the test is only relevant when you actually take it and that you could catch the virus 5 minutes later I don't think there was a response. Or perhaps I'd decided to listen to music at that point to save me punching the radio!
Are we really a country full of morons with a few normal folk mixed in?
Still, at least, as ALF says, we're being offered the vaccine in decent quantities, well until the EU decides to step in and dictate the production of private companies.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 29, 2021 16:22:32 GMT
For those that like to go on about what a disaster it all is here, and how it's somehow the governments fault that we have a high death rate (when we are a fairly unhealthy nation and also report the deaths more scrupulously than other places) and how no one in any position of authority in this country could fight their way out of a paper bag, consider this. Tina's parents live in Bavaria, near the regional capital so not in the sticks. One of the wealthiest parts of Germany and also something like the Lake District here in that the health system will be used to dealing with many older people. They are in their 70's and have serious life limiting health conditions that are seen as risk factors for COVID. They - and no one they know - has even been contacted about when a first jab might be offered. Except, that is, Tina's younger sister who has no health issues and runs half marathons quicker than I do - who works in a non-public facing admin function in the Police - which for me is an example of how our approach of basing things mainly on age/health (except for frontline workers in high risk jobs) was right. Pretty shocking, from Europe's wealthiest and most organised country. What evidence do you have that we record deaths more scrupulously? At the beginning of the pandemic, the accusation was quite the opposite. The point of course here is that who gets vaccinated is national policy, not EU policy - procurement was at the EU level - who/how/when individual countries vaccinate their citizens was left up to each country. Germany does seem to have made a particularly almighty horlicks of things, as has France. My parents (here and Switzerland) have been vaccinated (in fact my mother's due her second dose) and my in-laws in Italy (early 70s) are due to be vaccinated next week.
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Post by michael on Mar 29, 2021 19:06:57 GMT
It’s a fact that our data is far more robust and timely. France doesn’t record deaths at home, for example, whilst we have two bodies reporting deaths using separate mechanisms that further supports transparency for the figures.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 29, 2021 21:57:23 GMT
It’s a fact that our data is far more robust and timely. France doesn’t record deaths at home, for example, whilst we have two bodies reporting deaths using separate mechanisms that further supports transparency for the figures. I am very deeply sceptical of that. For a long time, we didn't record deaths in care homes. Just for one example.
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 29, 2021 22:35:37 GMT
The UK reported death rate is a nonsense, as I suspect are most others for various reasons. The figures in the UK “include deaths in the coronavirus total only if they occurred within 28 days of a positive test” according to all media reporting. This means you can arrive in the hospital foaming at the mouth and gnashing your teeth having been bitten by a rabid dog sneaked in by one of those pesky foreigners but because you had a positive test a week or two ago you’re a coronavirus death despite having shown no symptoms.
More seriously you might be receiving much delayed treatment for cancer, contract the virus on the ward and succumb to the cancer but be recorded as a coronavirus death.
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Post by Roadrunner on Mar 29, 2021 23:36:52 GMT
The UK reported death rate is a nonsense, as I suspect are most others for various reasons. The figures in the UK “include deaths in the coronavirus total only if they occurred within 28 days of a positive test” according to all media reporting. This means you can arrive in the hospital foaming at the mouth and gnashing your teeth having been bitten by a rabid dog sneaked in by one of those pesky foreigners but because you had a positive test a week or two ago you’re a coronavirus death despite having shown no symptoms. More seriously you might be receiving much delayed treatment for cancer, contract the virus on the ward and succumb to the cancer but be recorded as a coronavirus death. Exactly this. Two people I know were killed in a road accident. They were asymptomatic, but tested positive and their deaths went down as Covid. Someone else, aged 90, had a bad fall, went to hospital, tested negative, but was in a bad way due to head injuries. He later tested positive in hospital, but died of bleeding on the brain. The death went down as Covid.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 5:52:41 GMT
It’s a fact that our data is far more robust and timely. France doesn’t record deaths at home, for example, whilst we have two bodies reporting deaths using separate mechanisms that further supports transparency for the figures. I am very deeply sceptical of that. For a long time, we didn't record deaths in care homes. Just for one example. That’s not quite right. For a short period of time we couldn’t report care home deaths in a timely manner as there wasn’t a mechanism to do so. An online mechanism was then put in place to do the job and they’ve been reported since. Many other countries still don’t do this with France, and other for example, still using a paper reporting system for many of its domicilery deaths. The UK has two reporting mechanisms, PHE which uses 28 days with COVID and ONS which reports COVID on the death certificate. Both types of reporting have advantages and disadvantages but the fact is both are reported which allows the trend data to be compared which is the practical application that matters. It’s easy to criticise the deaths data of any country but it is a substantially more complicated exercise than many people realise. I think it’s justifiable to describe our data as the best in the world.
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Post by garry on Mar 30, 2021 5:56:39 GMT
The UK reported death rate is a nonsense, as I suspect are most others for various reasons. The figures in the UK “include deaths in the coronavirus total only if they occurred within 28 days of a positive test” according to all media reporting. This means you can arrive in the hospital foaming at the mouth and gnashing your teeth having been bitten by a rabid dog sneaked in by one of those pesky foreigners but because you had a positive test a week or two ago you’re a coronavirus death despite having shown no symptoms. More seriously you might be receiving much delayed treatment for cancer, contract the virus on the ward and succumb to the cancer but be recorded as a coronavirus death. There is now plenty of data from 2020 so we can see what covid caused in terms of excess deaths. To get an accurate view you need to take into account population size and age. The ONS have done this. It shows that 2020 was in fact more deadly. A little more than 2015, but surpassed by 2008.
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Post by garry on Mar 30, 2021 6:05:31 GMT
The UK reported death rate is a nonsense, as I suspect are most others for various reasons. The figures in the UK “include deaths in the coronavirus total only if they occurred within 28 days of a positive test” according to all media reporting. This means you can arrive in the hospital foaming at the mouth and gnashing your teeth having been bitten by a rabid dog sneaked in by one of those pesky foreigners but because you had a positive test a week or two ago you’re a coronavirus death despite having shown no symptoms. More seriously you might be receiving much delayed treatment for cancer, contract the virus on the ward and succumb to the cancer but be recorded as a coronavirus death. Exactly this. Two people I know were killed in a road accident. They were asymptomatic, but tested positive and their deaths went down as Covid. Someone else, aged 90, had a bad fall, went to hospital, tested negative, but was in a bad way due to head injuries. He later tested positive in hospital, but died of bleeding on the brain. The death went down as Covid. Many peopl have stories to tell like this, my own experience is that I know of two people who died of covid (I.e. it’s on their death certificate). One had terminal cancer and had zero expectation of seeing out 2020, the other had a heart attack (his third), died two days later in hospital in which time he tested positive for covid. I know no one else who’s died of covid.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 6:20:34 GMT
The UK reported death rate is a nonsense, as I suspect are most others for various reasons. The figures in the UK “include deaths in the coronavirus total only if they occurred within 28 days of a positive test” according to all media reporting. This means you can arrive in the hospital foaming at the mouth and gnashing your teeth having been bitten by a rabid dog sneaked in by one of those pesky foreigners but because you had a positive test a week or two ago you’re a coronavirus death despite having shown no symptoms. More seriously you might be receiving much delayed treatment for cancer, contract the virus on the ward and succumb to the cancer but be recorded as a coronavirus death. There is now plenty of data from 2020 so we can see what covid caused in terms of excess deaths. To get an accurate view you need to take into account population size and age. The ONS have done this. It shows that 2020 was in fact more deadly. A little more than 2015, but surpassed by 2008. View AttachmentExcess deaths are a good measure for international comparisons but they’re not timely. The need for daily death reporting was mainly driven by the media’s need to wank itself off on the daily figures.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 6:26:08 GMT
Exactly this. Two people I know were killed in a road accident. They were asymptomatic, but tested positive and their deaths went down as Covid. Someone else, aged 90, had a bad fall, went to hospital, tested negative, but was in a bad way due to head injuries. He later tested positive in hospital, but died of bleeding on the brain. The death went down as Covid. Many peopl have stories to tell like this, my own experience is that I know of two people who died of covid (I.e. it’s on their death certificate). One had terminal cancer and had zero expectation of seeing out 2020, the other had a heart attack (his third), died two days later in hospital in which time he tested positive for covid. I know no one else who’s died of covid. He didn’t die of COVID, he died with it. If he had a positive test then it’s right it should be on the death certificate (can you imagine the outcry if it wasn’t) but cancer will have also been on the certificate as cause of death.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 30, 2021 8:15:44 GMT
I'm sorry. Particularly given what an ardent critic you are of the NHS the rest of the ime, I do not believe even for one second that you would be such a relentless flag flyer for how wonderful and world-beating our systems and date are if this was a Labour administration.
I'm not saying our systems are dreadful. I'm just very sceptical of all this distasteful "aren't we wonderful / we are the best" business, which strikes me as nothing more than political propaganda designed to achieve the "if we say it enough times, enough of the proles might believe it" goal. I think it is borderline infantile coming from a government and, given the frequency with which pride precedes falls, worrying.
Equally, I'm not accusing you of dishonesty, merely of looking at this from a partisan Tory Party point of view.
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Post by Tim on Mar 30, 2021 8:16:19 GMT
Many peopl have stories to tell like this, my own experience is that I know of two people who died of covid (I.e. it’s on their death certificate). One had terminal cancer and had zero expectation of seeing out 2020, the other had a heart attack (his third), died two days later in hospital in which time he tested positive for covid. I know no one else who’s died of covid. He didn’t die of COVID, he died with it. If he had a positive test then it’s right it should be on the death certificate (can you imagine the outcry if it wasn’t) but cancer will have also been on the certificate as cause of death. Does that mean that the death will effectively be recorded in 2 sets of data - cancer AND covid?
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Post by alf on Mar 30, 2021 8:40:43 GMT
Evidence? Take Russia as an example - according to independent analysts, they have reported something like 20% of the COVID deaths as being that - they invented some new diseases along the lines of "community acquired pneumonia" which in some cities I saw studies about, were being used to record as much as 70-80% of their actual COVID deaths.
Our system of reporting all deaths within 28 days of a positive test has obvious failings but the figure does seem to track along fairly in line with the excess deaths, if slightly below it. It will be years before we know the full story anywhere, and with the political nature of the data and opposition parties everywhere wanting to prove governments got it all wrong, it will no doubt be manipulated for a long time but excess deaths will give us insight as to the impact of COVID, even if it won't be all deaths from COVID.
On a feeling, not evidence, it always seemed odd to me that the scenes from Spain and Italy of coughing patients on beds queued up in hospitals, in makeshift outdoor ones, army lorries moving piles of bodies, didn't play out here and yet we were reporting more deaths throughout...
Another feeling not being put forward as real evidence: One thing I have noticed that may or may not be true, is that some countries like France seem to report (as shown on worldometer etc) relatively low daily figures yet the total tracks along not far behind ours. Which suggests to me that some countries under-egg the daily figures then let them be revised up later, knowing most people will look at the previous day's only.
Lastly, an observation - we were doing OK in the autumn and it seemed the new "Kent" variant was a major factor in the explosion in winter, from the way it was initially so localised and behaviour studies saw no other reasons why it should have grown so fast in such a localised way. I said back then that it would only be a matter of time before Europe and possibly the world had another big wave from this variant and I fear this is what is happening elsewhere in Europe now - with our relative vaccination levels I think the final tally will be quite a different picture from where it is now.
I don't think our government (led by someone I am not fond of in any way) was anywhere near perfect but it was obvious that vaccines were the main goal, and we got the focus on that right - and took a free market approach of placing orders all over the shop (which are relatively cheap compared to other healthcare costs) rather than a socialist idealistic model of buying ethically as a conglomerate and in doing so we prepared to win the war, not just look good in the initial exchanges.
Lastly - on vaccine ID's - I really hope we get them, it is very un-British but that does not mean it is wrong! Then again I'd be happy with an ID card generally. If we use paper "proof" of vaccines then people will just forge them.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 9:00:18 GMT
I'm sorry. Particularly given what an ardent critic you are of the NHS the rest of the ime, I do not believe even for one second that you would be such a relentless flag flyer for how wonderful and world-beating our systems and date are if this was a Labour administration. I'm not saying our systems are dreadful. I'm just very sceptical of all this distasteful "aren't we wonderful / we are the best" business, which strikes me as nothing more than political propaganda designed to achieve the "if we say it enough times, enough of the proles might believe it" goal. I think it is borderline infantile coming from a government and, given the frequency with which pride precedes falls, worrying. Equally, I'm not accusing you of dishonesty, merely of looking at this from a partisan Tory Party point of view. I have a vested interest in championing the success of sorting out the data because I was one of the poor sods who had to sort it out. If you don’t think we do it well, tell me who does it better and why.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 9:05:46 GMT
He didn’t die of COVID, he died with it. If he had a positive test then it’s right it should be on the death certificate (can you imagine the outcry if it wasn’t) but cancer will have also been on the certificate as cause of death. Does that mean that the death will effectively be recorded in 2 sets of data - cancer AND covid? Yes. COVID is a digital yes or no record of having it. Cancer information is far more granular and we have an existing surveillance programme and cancer registries. These capture enormous amounts of data and there are dedicated analytical teams working on those data sets. A death certificate may say tested positive for covid with advanced cancer. My dad’s death certificate recorded that he died from pneumonia but I and the doctor also made sure that advanced multiple sclerosis was also on there as that was the root cause.
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Post by garry on Mar 30, 2021 10:31:54 GMT
Many peopl have stories to tell like this, my own experience is that I know of two people who died of covid (I.e. it’s on their death certificate). One had terminal cancer and had zero expectation of seeing out 2020, the other had a heart attack (his third), died two days later in hospital in which time he tested positive for covid. I know no one else who’s died of covid. He didn’t die of COVID, he died with it. If he had a positive test then it’s right it should be on the death certificate (can you imagine the outcry if it wasn’t) but cancer will have also been on the certificate as cause of death. Both died with lots of things that didn't appear on the death certificate because those things were irrelevant. In both of these cases they'll appear on the 'grim tally' of covid deaths even though it had nothing to do with their death, overstating the true risk that covid presents.
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Post by garry on Mar 30, 2021 10:38:14 GMT
I'm sorry. Particularly given what an ardent critic you are of the NHS the rest of the ime, I do not believe even for one second that you would be such a relentless flag flyer for how wonderful and world-beating our systems and date are if this was a Labour administration. I'm not saying our systems are dreadful. I'm just very sceptical of all this distasteful "aren't we wonderful / we are the best" business, which strikes me as nothing more than political propaganda designed to achieve the "if we say it enough times, enough of the proles might believe it" goal. I think it is borderline infantile coming from a government and, given the frequency with which pride precedes falls, worrying. Equally, I'm not accusing you of dishonesty, merely of looking at this from a partisan Tory Party point of view. I do think the vaccine program has been remarkably impressive both in terms of execution and the strategy of vaccinating on age and risk profile. I think it does stand up to scrutiny of being the best executed program in the world.
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Post by Tim on Mar 30, 2021 11:05:19 GMT
Thanks Michael.
Ref ALF's post I have to say I'm suspicious of the recording in a lot of countries. You only have to look at some aerial images of, say, India or Brazil and the vast slum shanty towns to wonder how they are recording deaths in such a tightly packed locale. The obvious answer is that they're not. Unless they have a significant genetic difference then based on our own experience you would assume that once the virus is in a place like that it will spread mercilessly like wildfire yet the death rates are low.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 30, 2021 11:07:13 GMT
I'm sorry. Particularly given what an ardent critic you are of the NHS the rest of the ime, I do not believe even for one second that you would be such a relentless flag flyer for how wonderful and world-beating our systems and date are if this was a Labour administration. I'm not saying our systems are dreadful. I'm just very sceptical of all this distasteful "aren't we wonderful / we are the best" business, which strikes me as nothing more than political propaganda designed to achieve the "if we say it enough times, enough of the proles might believe it" goal. I think it is borderline infantile coming from a government and, given the frequency with which pride precedes falls, worrying. Equally, I'm not accusing you of dishonesty, merely of looking at this from a partisan Tory Party point of view. I have a vested interest in championing the success of sorting out the data because I was one of the poor sods who had to sort it out. If you don’t think we do it well, tell me who does it better and why. How so? For some reason, I had you down as something akin to a graphic designer?
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 11:11:37 GMT
They’re details for another section.
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 11:14:33 GMT
He didn’t die of COVID, he died with it. If he had a positive test then it’s right it should be on the death certificate (can you imagine the outcry if it wasn’t) but cancer will have also been on the certificate as cause of death. Both died with lots of things that didn't appear on the death certificate because those things were irrelevant. In both of these cases they'll appear on the 'grim tally' of covid deaths even though it had nothing to do with their death, overstating the true risk that covid presents. That’s true and I’ve a lot of sympathy as I had to push hard to ensure covid wasn’t on my fathers death certificate - the preference is to mark it down. But I can also see his failing to record COVID on a certificate could be turned against the registrar or government if it wasn’t noted.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 30, 2021 11:17:26 GMT
Evidence? Take Russia as an example. Not perhaps the obvious comparator! Since you mention Italy and Spain, death rates there are in fact fairly comparable - the total rate to date per million in the UK is 1,890 vs 1,800 in Italy. Spain and Portugal are around 1600. Belgium is 2000 and a few Eastern Europe countries are thereabouts or higher. Germany is the real outlier to date. But even early on, there were many reports about how Germany seemed to have fewer deaths vs recorded cases, which was put down to Germany having a better equipped health system - the number of ICU beds and ventilators per head of the population was way higher than either the UK or Italy for example.
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