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Post by racingteatray on Oct 1, 2019 15:27:08 GMT
This has got deeply, deeply tiresome and it is achieving nothing.
I have respect for the out-and-out Brexiteer position even if I think it is wrong and damaging.
But I will never, ever agree with this "yeah I thought it was a bad idea but a majority voted for it so we must do it, come what may, no ifs, no buts" defence-of-democracy argument. I find it utterly peculiar that someone can adopt a position which essentially says "I don't have the courage of my convictions over the core question, despite it being possibly the defining one of our age, but I do suddenly find that courage when it comes to making a song and dance about my way of interpreting democracy". I think it's horse-crap of the highest order.
If you don't like that, so be it. Go on arguing until you are blue in the face but I really can't be arsed anymore.
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Post by michael on Oct 1, 2019 15:34:35 GMT
This has got deeply, deeply tiresome and it is achieving nothing. I have respect for the out-and-out Brexiteer position even if I think it is wrong and damaging. But I will never, ever agree with this " yeah I thought it was a bad idea but a majority voted for it so we must do it, come what may, no ifs, no buts" defence-of-democracy argument. I find it utterly peculiar that someone can adopt a position which essentially says "I don't have the courage of my convictions over the core question, despite it being possibly the defining one of our age, but I do suddenly find that courage when it comes to making a song and dance about my way of interpreting democracy". I think it's horse-crap of the highest order. If you don't like that, so be it. Go on arguing until you are blue in the face but I really can't be arsed anymore. You've made a number of assumptions there which are flawed.
But I'm happy to end the debate while to remains almost civil.
This is well timed:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 15:42:38 GMT
This has got deeply, deeply tiresome and it is achieving nothing. I have respect for the out-and-out Brexiteer position even if I think it is wrong and damaging. But I will never, ever agree with this " yeah I thought it was a bad idea but a majority voted for it so we must do it, come what may, no ifs, no buts" defence-of-democracy argument. I find it utterly peculiar that someone can adopt a position which essentially says "I don't have the courage of my convictions over the core question, despite it being possibly the defining one of our age, but I do suddenly find that courage when it comes to making a song and dance about my way of interpreting democracy". I think it's horse-crap of the highest order. If you don't like that, so be it. Go on arguing until you are blue in the face but I really can't be arsed anymore. If there is anyone arguing until they are blue faced, it is you hoo. Endex. Have a nice day.
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Post by Stuntman on Oct 1, 2019 18:50:11 GMT
Once again I agree with Racing about the bonkers-ness of imbuing the result of the 2016 referendum with the status of a religious dogma, given how much more information we now have. I definitely want another say in what happens next, and if the country then votes to leave with no deal - absolutely fair enough. Nobody has imbued Brexit with such a status, many voters simply expect parliament to deliver what it promised. I'm not sure how much more information you've had that wasn't available before the referendum, either. I can't think of an instance where we've had a referendum that wasn't honoured so it's not unusual to think it's right that it would be.
The referendum asked a binary question, leave or remain. We weren't asked how we wanted to leave. To suggest that there hasn't been more information on what 'leave' means, since June 2016, is nonsense. Given what the UK electorate knows now, I'd like us to be asked the question again - using the two-parter as per Racing's option 4 above. Failing that, it's entirely proper that we delegate the decision about the terms on which we leave, to Parliament (or strictly, the Legislature).
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Post by Stuntman on Oct 1, 2019 19:00:51 GMT
Here are my answers to the 10 questions to Remainers from a Remainer (surprise: I'm a Remainer ) 1. Where do we go from here? Easy. I'd say just maintain the status quo. 2. Where will the unity come from in a ‘government of national unity’? Easy. There will be no unity. We'd only need such a government if we persist with trying to leave with no deal. 3. Are we prepared to put Jeremy Corbyn in power? Easy. I'm not. 4. What happens if he decides to squat in Number 10? Easy. Not relevant, see above. 5. What price are we willing to pay for the SNP’s support? Easy. Not relevant, see above. 6. Do we want a second referendum or simply to revoke and remain? Happy either way. See my contributions earlier in the thread. 7. Will leaving without a deal be an option in any referendum? Yes, but only if the answer to the first of the two questions to be answered is 'Leave'. 8. What happens if Leave wins? Then we leave. Fair enough. 9. What happens if Remain wins? Then we remain. Again, fair enough. 10. What’s so great about the EU? The benefits of being in it outweigh the dangers of leaving it in my opinion.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 2, 2019 8:04:35 GMT
This has got deeply, deeply tiresome and it is achieving nothing. I have respect for the out-and-out Brexiteer position even if I think it is wrong and damaging. But I will never, ever agree with this " yeah I thought it was a bad idea but a majority voted for it so we must do it, come what may, no ifs, no buts" defence-of-democracy argument. I find it utterly peculiar that someone can adopt a position which essentially says "I don't have the courage of my convictions over the core question, despite it being possibly the defining one of our age, but I do suddenly find that courage when it comes to making a song and dance about my way of interpreting democracy". I think it's horse-crap of the highest order. If you don't like that, so be it. Go on arguing until you are blue in the face but I really can't be arsed anymore. Fair point. I'm a realist and to paraphrase an Irish saying; "if I wanted to get where I was going I wouldn't start from here". But here we are, once we had the referendum the genie was let out of the bottle and it isn't going to go back in. Talk of a second referendum is a fantasy not grounded in reality; how long would it take to arrange? What would the options be? How long would the legal challenges take? What would the potential outcomes be in terms of civil unrest? All the while the clock is ticking and the EU is waiting for us to sort ourselves out. It has the potential to drag on for 3 or more years more, all the while with a potential change of government re-setting the whole thing and coming at it from a different angle. For me the only realistic option is to leave on the best terms we can and then spend the next x number of years repairing our relationship with the EU.
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Post by Tim on Oct 2, 2019 8:27:49 GMT
I hope that a couple of years after this first stage is all over and the current Government have removed us with no deal via whatever loophole they've found that if it has all turned to shit those cheerleaders for no deal will be swiftly removed from the positions of power, authority and influence they've achieved. Someone should remind the current lot that voters are fickle and just because there may be a lot of pro-leave voices just now as soon as people become worse off there'll be a swift about turn and demands for their heads.
Conversely if it turns out to have been a total success and we're all significantly better off then they should be handsomely rewarded.
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Post by johnc on Oct 2, 2019 17:20:44 GMT
It looks to me as if Boris' deal to the EU will allow freeish movement of goods between Eire and NI and totally free movement of people. I presume that means that there will be full border controls on all ferries and flights from NI to mainland UK. I see the Irish Govt have basically dismissed the idea without even reading it which would suggest that a no deal Brexit is what we are going to get with both sides blaming each other for their intransigence. It's a bloody mess.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 17:30:27 GMT
It is that.
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Post by PG on Oct 2, 2019 18:12:33 GMT
It looks to me as if Boris' deal to the EU will allow freeish movement of goods between Eire and NI and totally free movement of people. I presume that means that there will be full border controls on all ferries and flights from NI to mainland UK. I see the Irish Govt have basically dismissed the idea without even reading it which would suggest that a no deal Brexit is what we are going to get with both sides blaming each other for their intransigence. It's a bloody mess. But I heard on the BBC that the EU will "consider the documents" or words like that. Whereas I expected them to dismiss it out of hand as well. So I can see that if there is a deal to be done then real pressure will get put on the Irish government by the EU.
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Post by michael on Oct 2, 2019 18:32:27 GMT
Of course they’ll dismiss them. With parliament taking no deal off the table it’s they who call the shots.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 19:12:55 GMT
Not so much, they have to be aware of the financial situation in the eu, no deal hurts them and after Mr Barmy said he could easily see a deal being done, I think it will.
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Post by Tim on Oct 3, 2019 12:09:09 GMT
I'm fairly sure that whatever deal is put forward no side is going to go for it
I was listening to Steve Baker - an ERG stalwart - being interviewed on R4 last night and he has already started making noises that aren't overwhelmingly positive so it may not have their support.
TBH if the DUP are in favour of anything it makes me suspicious.
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Post by LandieMark on Oct 29, 2019 18:23:34 GMT
We now have confirmation of an election. Oh good! I don't think my vote will change, but who knows.
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Post by Alex on Oct 29, 2019 20:23:21 GMT
We now have confirmation of an election. Oh good! I don't think my vote will change, but who knows. Still not sure whether we'll get anything other than a hung parliament that still cannot decide on whether they'll agree to a deal or try for another referendum. Unless Boris gets a majority I don't think this solves the problem.
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Post by LandieMark on Oct 29, 2019 20:35:25 GMT
We now have confirmation of an election. Oh good! I don't think my vote will change, but who knows. Still not sure whether we'll get anything other than a hung parliament that still cannot decide on whether they'll agree to a deal or try for another referendum. Unless Boris gets a majority I don't think this solves the problem. I agree. I can't see anything changing at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 21:44:00 GMT
It depends on how people see the current parliament and who they blame for the mess. I do wonder who lit the fire under the Corbyn backside to get him to agree. Perhaps he realised he looks and sounds like a proper bloody idiot.
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Post by racingteatray on Oct 30, 2019 9:48:01 GMT
Well of course the current Parliament has only existed since the last Queen's Speech, which was earlier this month...
But that sort of minor detail gets glossed over...
This isn't an election for our benefit, or for the benefit of Brexit. It's mainly been called because Boris ad Cummings are gambling that it is politically advantageous for them to have one. For my part, I hope they lose the gamble, May-style.
And the Nats and the LDs have gone along with it because the Nats prefer an election before Salmond's trial and the LDs want an election prior to Brexit whilst their main argument still has some teeth.
Labour meanwhile barely knows which day of the week it is.
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Post by johnc on Oct 30, 2019 10:54:42 GMT
This is going to be such a hard result to call. Brexiteers will either have to vote Tory or Farage. Many remainers who might normally vote Tory or Labour could be persuaded to vote for the Liberals since Brexit is still the largest policy on the table by a long way. I still believe that Labour is unelectable but it is quite possible that there are so many promises of utopia made in the run up to a GE that they could still poll a decent number of votes. The SNP are a definite remain party but the bigger picture with them is the threat of independence so many will be dissuaded from supporting them if they believe that in doing so they could help the call for independence. Then there are the Greens who might just pull a few rabbits out of the hat on the back of XR, climate change and otherwise confused and exhausted voters.
I think that whatever the result, it won't be the one that a very large number of people want!
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Post by racingteatray on Oct 30, 2019 10:58:48 GMT
Yes, it's entirely possible that the only thing we achieve by having an election is to kill off the long-standing argument that an election can resolve the Brexit impasse.
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Post by Tim on Oct 30, 2019 10:59:27 GMT
Did anyone listen to Matt Hancock on Today this morning? He's an oily little wanker and just the sort of politician I'd be happy to see disposed of.
Additionally I'm sure there will be plenty of moans of BBC bias from PM last night as Evan Davis continually pointed out to Nicky Morgan that until very recently the Tories (with the DUP) had a majority and failed to 'get Brexit done' (that's a phrase that has already become distinctly annoying).
He didn't go so far as to point out that, among others, the current PM and Leader of the House of Commons had failed to vote for the Brexit deal but I feel it would've been a valid point.
Labour are a joke. The Limp Dems are probably going to end up as the party that will be needed to form a coalition.
The SNP will probably do well up here at the expense of the Tories (who appear to have been a 1 woman party, I don't know who their new leader is!) but they'll still be a very minority party.
Basically we're going to be fucked back into the same bottomless pit of achieving nothing and the only thing the GE will achieve is creating more division - Boris has already said he'll fight a 'tough' campaign.
I'm tempted to vote for the party that I consider to be the least dishonest (in terms of the 'facts' they will be claiming) so that would end up as a vote for a small party, I suspect.
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Post by racingteatray on Oct 30, 2019 11:08:38 GMT
Yes, it's entirely possible that the only thing we achieve by having an election is to kill off the long-standing argument that an election can resolve the Brexit impasse. And I'd consider that a positive outcome because I have no desire to see either Boris or Corbyn win a majority.
And despite the Tory Project Fear, I've zero fear that Corbyn will - I think it is virtually mathematically impossible. Even if Boris were to be caught on camera or tape promising Donald Trump unfettered access to a completely privatised NHS whilst having a threesome with Priti Patel and Lyn Truss on the Cabinet table, I still think Corbyn wouldn't win a majority. And without one, his chances of implementing his hard-left agenda are zilch.
But I do worry about Boris. He is, as memorably described recently, a slippery little greased piglet and there is little he won't do or promise to get his way. He just tells each different person the different thing that that person wants to hear and then hopes they don't confer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 11:10:02 GMT
"I think that whatever the result, it won't be the one that a very large number of people want"!
The one thing that can pretty much be guaranteed.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 30, 2019 11:21:01 GMT
. He just tells each different person the different thing that that person wants to hear and then hopes they don't confer. Isn't that how politics has always worked?
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Post by racingteatray on Oct 30, 2019 11:27:25 GMT
Isn't that how politics has always worked? That's a very cynical view! I might be wrong but I don't believe that, for example, Thatcher operated that way.
Policies can be adopted and later abandoned if circumstances warrant without that necessarily being indicative of a lack of honesty or integrity. But Boris Johnson just seems fundamentally to lack even a passing acquaintanceship with the notions of honesty and integrity, and I do not trust him to act in the best interests of this country as a whole, which I do think is a Prime Minister's primary role.
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Post by michael on Oct 30, 2019 11:53:44 GMT
I still think Corbyn wouldn't win a majority. And without one, his chances of implementing his hard-left agenda are zilch. He doesn't need to win a majority, he needs to win enough to form a coalition which may not include the Lib Dems but the SNP, Green, PC and a few floating independents may well be up for. The risk of a Corbyn government is a real one.
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Post by Tim on Oct 30, 2019 12:07:41 GMT
He doesn't need to win a majority, he needs to win enough to form a coalition which may not include the Lib Dems but the SNP, Green, PC and a few floating independents may well be up for. The risk of a Corbyn government is a real one. I don't think he'll get enough to form a coalition unless it was with both the Lib Dems and SNP at which point his most extreme policies will surely be removed. Can't really see it happening.
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 30, 2019 12:40:20 GMT
My current biggest bugbear with politics is the use of the NHS by the left. Generally the messages given are that the Tories are going to sell it to Americans / privatise it wholesale and that free care will disappear forever. Apparently it’s our NHS and everything must be done to protect it in its current state at all costs.
I don’t disagree that we need to have a publicly funded healthcare system, that we need to prevent businesses from making it inaccessible and that any move to an American style healthcare system is a reason to riot but.....
..... it’s not some superb benchmark the rest of the world seeks to emulate and looks upon with utter jealousy. Whatever happens and whoever is in power the behemoth that is the NHS needs reform, whether that’s a mass move to more prevention, less acceptance of self inflicted ailments being treated in perpetuity, more acceptance by the public that we all have to die and should be assessed as to quality of life etc etc.
It just gets my goat that apparently it’s fine as it is and the left will leave it like that if their base membership has anything to do with it.
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Post by michael on Oct 30, 2019 12:52:36 GMT
My current biggest bugbear with politics is the use of the NHS by the left. Generally the messages given are that the Tories are going to sell it to Americans / privatise it wholesale and that free care will disappear forever. Apparently it’s our NHS and everything must be done to protect it in its current state at all costs. I don’t disagree that we need to have a publicly funded healthcare system, that we need to prevent businesses from making it inaccessible and that any move to an American style healthcare system is a reason to riot but..... ..... it’s not some superb benchmark the rest of the world seeks to emulate and looks upon with utter jealousy. Whatever happens and whoever is in power the behemoth that is the NHS needs reform, whether that’s a mass move to more prevention, less acceptance of self inflicted ailments being treated in perpetuity, more acceptance by the public that we all have to die and should be assessed as to quality of life etc etc. It just gets my goat that apparently it’s fine as it is and the left will leave it like that if their base membership has anything to do with it. Yes, and the fact that the greatest ever privatisation exercise of the NHS was undertaken by Labour with PFI. The NHS could do so much to help so many more with a bit of needed reform but people will continue to suffer for as long as the lefties can weaponise it for political means.
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Post by PG on Oct 30, 2019 13:17:57 GMT
My current biggest bugbear with politics is the use of the NHS by the left..... ...It just gets my goat that apparently it’s fine as it is and the left will leave it like that if their base membership has anything to do with it. And the premise of the NHS was that it was free at the point of delivery. Who delivers that is irrelevant - to sensible people. My sister had her hip replacement at a private hospital paid for by the NHS. To die-hard lefties that in itself is not allowable. The whole "our NHS" bullshit is really all about protecting the cosy union closed shop - across all staff from Unite to the GMC - that is not in patients' best interests at all. But for any party to go there in an election would be suicide as the NHS is like some sacred animal that all people have to worship.
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