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Post by scouse on Jun 23, 2017 11:41:21 GMT
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 23, 2017 11:44:50 GMT
Anyone surprised at that? The trouble is greens and subsequently straw-grabbing politicians associate vehicle emissions with exhaust pipes only - you can make all the horror batteries you like as they're generally not made in the UK.
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Post by Roadrunner on Jun 23, 2017 11:52:14 GMT
I liked the bit where the article said, "Det är jättebra att företag och myndigheter inför ambitiösa miljöpolicys och köper in klimatsmarta bilar. Men dessa resultat visar att man bör tänka på att inte välja en elbil med större batteri än nödvändigt, säger han och påpekar att också politiker bör ta till sig detta vid utformningen av styrmedel."
Just what I was thinking as I opened the link...
Seriously, though, I think this just goes to prove what many of us have thought all along. The issue seems to be with battery size, so maybe a plug in hybrid is the best solution, with a smaller battery and an engine to recharge on longer journeys.
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Post by Alex on Jun 23, 2017 12:19:47 GMT
Don't forget the coal burning power station used to charge it!
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Post by LandieMark on Jun 23, 2017 12:26:49 GMT
Yes, not really surprised at all.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Jun 23, 2017 12:30:33 GMT
Yes, not really surprised at all. + another. But will that change the approach of the politicians? Doubt it.
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Post by ChrisM on Jun 23, 2017 12:31:52 GMT
Yes, not really surprised at all. + another. But will that change the approach of the politicians? Doubt it. +1; all politicians are interested in is getting re-elected
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2017 12:53:54 GMT
And the expenses, allowances, cheap London pad, free jollies away, huge salary and gold plated pension scheme...
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 23, 2017 13:06:42 GMT
I liked the bit where the article said, "Det är jättebra att företag och myndigheter inför ambitiösa miljöpolicys och köper in klimatsmarta bilar. Men dessa resultat visar att man bör tänka på att inte välja en elbil med större batteri än nödvändigt, säger han och påpekar att också politiker bör ta till sig detta vid utformningen av styrmedel." Just what I was thinking as I opened the link... Ha ha ha ha. You can hear the joking tone in the way it's written.....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2017 14:40:25 GMT
I have no idea whether it does or not, but would certainly stop a long way short of trusting an article I couldn't even read, let alone fact-check.
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Post by grampa on Jun 23, 2017 16:43:56 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 20:42:18 GMT
Don't they already make one with that bit built in?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 7:03:12 GMT
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Post by grampa on Jun 26, 2017 9:47:44 GMT
The thing is to calculate how green a car really is would be very complicated by the time you take into account the gathering and transport of all the raw materials, the factory processes, the building of a new factory if it's required to facilitate the building of a new tech car, the transport of the car to market, even the process of selling it - my guess is that all those factors completely dwarf the emissions of the actual vehicle.
I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that our Morris Minor is actually one the the 'greenest' cars on the road simply by the fact that it hasn't been replaced in 54 years (if it had still been one of our everyday cars of course - a role from which it retired at 34 years old).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 9:50:13 GMT
Emissions in manufacture are huge in relation to running, or so I believe. Or so I tell myself - running a low-use gas-guzzler is better than having a new, environmentally-friendly car...
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Post by Tim on Jun 26, 2017 12:40:57 GMT
Emissions in manufacture are huge in relation to running, or so I believe. Or so I tell myself - running a low-use gas-guzzler is better than having a new, environmentally-friendly car...
You're right. Just think of the emissions caused if you traded the Audi for, say, a new Prius. Shipping costs from Japan, the shared cost of the factory, shared cost of the ship and the dock used to build it, etc. Not to mention the manufacture of the car and batteries. It all adds up and, to my mind, should be included. It irritates me that I have to pay £250 ish in road tax for the M5, only do a limited mileage and only add usage pollution whereas I could go and buy a brand new hybrid and pay zero road tax because it allegedly has so few emissions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 14:18:57 GMT
£250? I bought at the wrong time, you know...
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Post by alf on Jun 27, 2017 11:50:51 GMT
It is interesting. I know eco-warriors with leccy cars that totally fail to consider the CO2 and resources used in making the batteries. Of course throw in a Telsa "power wall" and it gets worse. Then there is the impact of making solar panels, and also you have to consider the way we generate electricity in this country. Electric cars are under-taxed in comparison to their environmental impact, that seems certain.
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Post by LandieMark on Jun 27, 2017 12:42:10 GMT
That's just a little patronising.
As with all relatively new technologies, things start off slowly and gather momentum. Some things fall by the wayside and other things go on to make a big improvement. Of course it is a long term thing. Ultimately there is going to be massive improvements in how green energy production becomes, but until it does, there is no getting around the issue of how much pollution producing the "greener" alternatives emits.
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Post by Tim on Jun 27, 2017 12:45:10 GMT
The genuine lack of 'big picture' on this thread worries me.
I was being deliberately blinkered in my reply, I realise we need to develop technologies to make them more effective and electric cars fall into this. However, when you take into account all the pollution required to get the brand new car to the showroom for you to pick it up on day 1 there's always going to be a huge cost, no matter how hard you try. Cars are fundamentally made from bits that require to be mined and then transported around the place. Until we have a proper, realistic assessment of that then we're only kidding ourselves when we pat each other on the back for developing a small, incremental improvement.
A Prius will have travelled from Japan on a ship that burns oil, the Brexit debate has highlighted that some Mini bits go across the Channel several times before being put in a car.
Hell, lets extend this out. I can buy apples that have been airfreighted in from New Zealand and I live in a country that can grow its own apples.
I think the issue to someone like me is that in theory I'm made to feel bad for driving a thirsty car by someone who drives a much more efficient one yet that person has no concept of the pre-purchase resources required to get them in that drivers seat.
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Post by LandieMark on Jun 27, 2017 13:15:50 GMT
That's just a little patronising. Not really - there is a borderline scary propensity to immediately dismiss something and seek the negatives in something we don't personally 'like'. Parts of this thread are a shade embarrassing, certainly for intelligent people. Cringe! Clearly your superiority knows no bounds.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 13:58:52 GMT
I think that the issue here is that fundamentally most of us, as car enthusiasts, get a bit fed up from time to time of feeling as though we are the punchbag for environmental beating. It's therefore nice to see hypocrisy in those who throw the verbal bricks in our direction.
But fundamentally Chris is right, even if he might not word things in exactly the same way if starting from scratch. The future isn't reproducible in the here and now but we'll get there by trying and learning, and it's deeply unwise to take anything that we would like to be true at face value, which a lot of this thread suggests we are tempted to do.
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 27, 2017 14:05:01 GMT
All the same, 9 years of carbons is a lot of lost tax. 9 years ago diseasal was the way to go. In 9 years time science will be extolling the benefits of using fossil fuels in the same way that butter is now THE thing to eat - which on a personal level is quite exciting.
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Post by LandieMark on Jun 27, 2017 14:05:09 GMT
I think that the issue here is that fundamentally most of us, as car enthusiasts, get a bit fed up from time to time of feeling as though we are the punchbag for environmental beating. It's therefore nice to see hypocrisy in those who throw the verbal bricks in our direction. But fundamentally Chris is right, even if he might not word things in exactly the same way if starting from scratch. The future isn't reproducible in the here and now but we'll get there by trying and learning, and it's deeply unwise to take anything that we would like to be true at face value, which a lot of this thread suggests we are tempted to do. I'm not saying he's wrong - I don't think that he is and I don't see anyone else on here saying he is either. I think your first line has it spot on. I do think he is being a patronising arse though - unnessarily so.
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Post by michael on Jun 27, 2017 14:39:19 GMT
Not being a member of the flat earth society seems to be the only thing that I have in my favour. Be careful up there on your pedestal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 15:08:30 GMT
I think we need to be careful about not losing members.
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Post by michael on Jun 27, 2017 15:16:12 GMT
I think we need to be careful about not losing members. Who are we at risk of loosing and why?
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Post by michael on Jun 27, 2017 15:19:05 GMT
Just on the green stuff. Battery production is a dirty business and energy intensive. The production methods will improve eventually but that isn't a good enough reason to pile into the technology now. What we need to look for is the transitional technology and, for cars, that's probably gas power.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Jun 27, 2017 20:46:49 GMT
Gas as in Hydrogen?
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Post by michael on Jun 27, 2017 20:56:35 GMT
No as in lpg or Cng.
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