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Post by michael on Jun 9, 2017 5:59:35 GMT
Certainly. The comfort I'm taking from this is that SNP have been called out and there seems to be strength in the union again. I wonder if they can get boundary changes through before the next election? The other lesson from Brexit and this is how the electorate scrutinise information and educate them to better inform their position. Completely impossible I appreciate but I suspect a lot of votes were cast on the basis of the magic money tree and on that basis we're surrounded by idiots.
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 9, 2017 6:14:07 GMT
Boris is at home right now with a chart in front of him plotting his way to Downing Street.
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Post by michael on Jun 9, 2017 6:18:25 GMT
He's not getting my vote.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 6:35:47 GMT
Don't panic. Until 10am at least we still have a leader who wants to cull civil liberties, censor Internet news sites, block adult (no, not just porn) sites, who has massively increased the number of homeless on the streets, cut aid for mental health, wants to dismantle the NHS, cut free school... sorry Academy... meals...
And oh yes, showed true leadership by plunging the country into political turmoil days before we are due to start some rather important negotiations.
Jolly well done.
Maybe Corbyn would be worse, but it's obvious people are sick of what's happening to the country and want change, or at least a distinct choice.
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Post by humphreythepug on Jun 9, 2017 6:43:27 GMT
Labour were very good in targeting the youth vote; which I believe had a very good turnout, they used social media well, they had a fair few cool and trendy famous people on board who appeal to younger people, they appealed to them with regards to free university education, to the youth the Conservatives are fuddy duddy and out of touch with young people.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Jun 9, 2017 6:48:47 GMT
It's not just a shocking reflection of Britain but also a shocking indictment of (the lack of quality of) our political class. This +++ I wonder just how much bullshit claims on social media lead to a shift in votes?
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Post by PG on Jun 9, 2017 6:51:44 GMT
What a complete mess. May's entire campaign was based on the Corbyn being un-electable. Which has backfired on her - pretty much as it did for Hilary Clinton. So now we have a hung parliament and fuck knows where that will lead.
In reality, the UK has been closely split for quite a while now. It's pretty much split on any issue too close to call it. Let's not forget we had the coalition from 2010-15, the Scottish referendum, a very slim Conservative majority in 2015, 52-48 on Brexit and now a hung parliament.
This goes all the way back to the 2008 financial crisis. The cosy, growth for ever belief that had settled into western culture in the Blair era (which returned a succession of centrist "social democrat" outlook type parties across Europe) was kicked in the head and we're still reeling from it. Euro bail outs, EU referenda, massive government deficits and debts - regardless of the austerity v spend stand-off; high tax yet poor services, many v the few... The list goes on and on.
The opposite sides on any debate also seem almost unreconcilable to each others' views, which is going to make it even harder to sort out.
Essentially, perhaps it is time for a serious third political force to come through? Although our FPTP systems makes that really hard. But surely a combination of one nation Tories and right wing Labour, that agrees a soft Brexit to join the EEA, ought to gain a lot of votes. But I doubt anybody will take that huge step. So the Conservatives will ditch May, Labour MP's will swallow their bile and stay with Corbyn as he got them more votes and we'll struggle on. Meantime us poor sods in the country will go to work, pay our taxes and try and live a decent life. While we wait to hear which bunch of muppets will fuck us over.
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Post by johnc on Jun 9, 2017 6:57:29 GMT
People are sick and tired of Politicians full stop. They are all self interested airheads with no experience of real life, real jobs or what matters. They follow their warped ideology and really believe they are right. Corbyn and a return to Union lead, industrial unrest and bankruptcy from the 70's really worries me and the thought of Boris being in charge terrifies me - two slightly vacant mop heads in charge at the same time - could be a horror movie. As for TM, what was it Laurel and Hardy used to say "look what a mess you have got us into".
At least I got the MP I voted for and the result might mean that the SNP have to go away and start looking after Scotland properly instead of spending all their energy working out how to get independence.
After that result, Brexit negotiations are going to be a joke. I can't see the EU giving many concessions now. Maybe we can just shelve the idea and come back to it in 5 years time when everything has settled down.
What a mess!
EDIT: something my wife said to me this morning was why can't we have proportional representation: at least that way they would have to talk to each other and the extreme policies would not get through. I feel a need for some significant changes to politics in the UK.
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Post by ChrisM on Jun 9, 2017 7:11:26 GMT
People are sick and tired of Politicians full stop. They are all self interested airheads with no experience of real life, real jobs or what matters. (snip)
What a mess!
... which goes back to what I said weeks ago, that there should not have been an elkection called when we already had an agreement on intervals between them. Running a country really is too important for politicians... it should be left to "experts". Waste of time and money, and now look what we're left with..... maybe we really should sell out and become the USA's 51st state (if they'd take us) - even better, England, Scotland, NI and Wales as separate (51st to 54th) states, then Scotland could claim it got independence (of) sorts from England
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Post by LandieMark on Jun 9, 2017 8:17:52 GMT
Can't disagree with most of the above. A complete disaster.
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 9, 2017 8:22:44 GMT
We were asked in one of Mr Cameron's referendums if we wanted proportional representation and the answer has a fairly resounding no. As you make your bed, so must you lie in it.
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Post by johnc on Jun 9, 2017 8:46:45 GMT
We were asked in one of Mr Cameron's referendums if we wanted proportional representation and the answer has a fairly resounding no. As you make your bed, so must you lie in it. Depends what you voted for, as to your outlook on that one. I think the political mood is changing and PR would be much more widely accepted now.
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Post by Tim on Jun 9, 2017 9:25:39 GMT
So, we've been fucked over again for the sake of the Tory party but, as last time, it's resolved absolutely zero.
As far as PR goes I think we're being forced down that road - a hung parliament means the parties are going to have to talk to each other which is the PR template.
It's not fair to blame it entirely on Theresa May. We're not a dictatorship and there must've been a lot of advice to go for this from people who will now be lining up to challenge for her job. I hope there's a change in direction for the campaigning for the next, inevitable, election as well. We're not voting for individuals and I'd like that element to disappear so we can focus on proper policies, not just some charisma-free bint or slightly strange old man who appeals to young people......
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 9, 2017 9:33:54 GMT
We were asked in one of Mr Cameron's referendums if we wanted proportional representation and the answer has a fairly resounding no. As you make your bed, so must you lie in it. Depends what you voted for, as to your outlook on that one. I think the political mood is changing and PR would be much more widely accepted now. None of the politicians in the two main parties want PR so it will never get a decent look in. They consider that to govern you must have an absolute mandate, meaning you need to control all the posts in government and not rely on someone you can't influence. They have enough problems like that from within their own parties let alone outsiders!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 9:48:52 GMT
Boris for next pm/Tory leader? He is certainly not as daft as a lot of people think.
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Post by grampa on Jun 9, 2017 9:54:35 GMT
to the youth the Conservatives are fuddy duddy and out of touch with young people. Where was William Hague with his back-to-front cap when he was needed?
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Post by Tim on Jun 9, 2017 9:56:37 GMT
I think what people would really vote for would be a Blairite type centre party, Labour have moved left, the Tories have moved right and the Lib Dems have no credibility. there's a reason why Labour got in with such a majority in 1997 and it's not because they were left leaning.
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Post by Tim on Jun 9, 2017 9:58:03 GMT
This goes all the way back to the 2008 financial crisis. The cosy, growth for ever belief that had settled into western culture in the Blair era (which returned a succession of centrist "social democrat" outlook type parties across Europe) was kicked in the head and we're still reeling from it. Euro bail outs, EU referenda, massive government deficits and debts - regardless of the austerity v spend stand-off; high tax yet poor services, many v the few... The list goes on and on. Just to pick up on this I see that the Republicans have proposed a roll-back on the Dodd-Frank legislation that was imposed in the aftermath of the financial crisis. That's all we need at the moment
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Post by johnc on Jun 9, 2017 10:10:29 GMT
Boris for next pm/Tory leader? He is certainly not as daft as a lot of people think. God I hope not. Boris might have a high IQ but he is the kind of brain that should be put in a backroom and kept there. He doesn't have the common sense to change a light bulb and the last thing we need is another space cadet.
Whoever came up with the Tories manifesto and the policies they thought would win votes, needs to be taken away somewhere permanently - they are so far out of touch that they are unreachable. Corbyn's policies are unaffordable but there is a lot of decent content that obviously struck a note with a lot of people. Personally I would like to see University fees significantly reduced to say a maximum of £3K a year, I don't think Corporation Tax should be reduced and probably all Income Tax rates need to go up 1%. Corporation Tax should probably be pegged at 25% and all the attacks and impossibly complicated legislation around IR35 and false employment would no longer be required, especially if dividend tax was raised to 10%. Pensioners who might rely on plc dividends for their retirement income could have an increased personal allowance again to compensate. The Government have effectively abdicated all responsibility for tax policy to HMRC and we now have a real mess on top of all the other messes. It's a bit like asking the poacher to manage fish stocks - he will plunder until there is nothing left and will then shrug his shoulders and say it wasn't his fault. HMRC have no place making legislation and they are now turning into bullies in many cases.
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Post by grampa on Jun 9, 2017 10:19:39 GMT
Boris for next pm/Tory leader? He is certainly not as daft as a lot of people think. Although he enjoys playing the fool, I remember watching him in some sort of event where representatives of different organizations got to question him as London Mayor (I assume it was like a regular PM's question time kind of thing) - when he had to be serious and accommodate people who seemed to be of all sorts of different political persuasions, people different religions and people representing all kinds of group he was quite impressive and demonstrated much more empathy than his general public persona would suggest. On the other hand if Corbyn started to appreciate that all 'bosses' and wealthy people are not over rewarded failing bankers (after all he's prepared to accept endorsements from grossly overpaid entertainers) and actually stop to recognise that 1% of the population pays 25% of the taxes and would stop his politics of envy, then I could equally get behind him.
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Post by grampa on Jun 9, 2017 10:22:48 GMT
Boris for next pm/Tory leader? He is certainly not as daft as a lot of people think. I don't think Corporation Tax should be reduced and probably all Income Tax rates need to go up 1%.
Exactly - if we want better public services we all have to pay towards them, we can't all stand there like spoilt children demanding someone else pay for them.
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 9, 2017 10:32:44 GMT
To lighten the mood, this made me laugh a lot. Attachments:
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 9, 2017 11:10:02 GMT
Boris for next pm/Tory leader? He is certainly not as daft as a lot of people think. My sister had dealings with him when he was Mayor of London. She had a project that was stalling and enlisted his help - he impressed her with his ability to delegate, clear the roadblocks and get stuff done - somewhat at odds with his public reputation. That said; BoJo as PM? er not for me. Anyway, what a monumental fuck up. It was like England being 4-0 up in the penalty shoot out and still managing to lose to ze Germans. No idea whether we are better off with the outcome as opposed to a Tory whitewash, I do know Labour mobilised the youth vote far better and with their acolytes in the media tweeting their support you could see the momentum swinging away from the Tories. That and trying to campaign on negatives all the time, which is never a good strategy. I'm off to Glasgow to watch the football so I will be an A&E after tomorrow and will catch up with politics when discharged.
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Post by Tim on Jun 9, 2017 11:28:03 GMT
Er, a bit of bias there? Don't forget that the majority of the media is Tory supporting and I think The Times headline last week was an attempt to mobilise the vote. Sadly it clearly didn't give their supporters quite long enough to charge up their ride-on buggies to ensure they got to the polling station in time
I really hope we don't end up with BoJo or Corbyn. In fact, as has already been said, I can't think of anyone I'd prefer it to be.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 9, 2017 11:35:07 GMT
Er, a bit of bias there? Don't forget that the majority of the media is Tory supporting and I think The Times headline last week was an attempt to mobilise the vote. Sadly it clearly didn't give their supporters quite long enough to charge up their ride-on buggies to ensure they got to the polling station in time
I really hope we don't end up with BoJo or Corbyn. In fact, as has already been said, I can't think of anyone I'd prefer it to be.
When I said "media" I meant actors, comedians, pop stars etc. - the twitterati. The average person in the UK spends over 5 hours per day on the internet and the Tories have not really grasped that.
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 9, 2017 11:41:54 GMT
5hrs a day on the internet? Christ that's terrifying.
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Post by LandieMark on Jun 9, 2017 12:15:27 GMT
Just heard Theresa May's speech on the radio. Cloud cuckoo land springs to mind.
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Post by Tim on Jun 9, 2017 12:17:21 GMT
Yeah "What the country needs now more than ever is certainty"Shouldnt've called an election then you arsehole
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Post by johnc on Jun 9, 2017 12:34:33 GMT
Didn't the DUP get formed out of Paramilitary activity in NI? Isn't that the remnants of Paisley's lot? Could come in useful if the Brexit negotiations get tough.
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 9, 2017 12:56:51 GMT
Didn't the DUP get formed out of Paramilitary activity in NI? Isn't that the remnants of Paisley's lot? Could come in useful if the Brexit negotiations get tough. As my late father said to me about the Orangemen (he was of good proddy stock) "why the fuck would I want to be associated with that bunch of revolting bigots?"
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