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Post by grampa on Apr 18, 2017 11:30:00 GMT
So we have a general election in a few weeks time - thoughts?
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 18, 2017 11:38:48 GMT
The correct decision now. If Labour, the SNP and Lib Dems didn't keep trying to go against brexit every step of the way, she wouldn't have called it. If she wins then there is a mandate to put up and shut up
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 18, 2017 12:00:35 GMT
Shrewd. Can't see anything other than a resounding Tory victory.
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Post by Tim on Apr 18, 2017 12:42:54 GMT
I can only agree with what Frank says.
On the subject of the SNP and their anti-Brexit stance surely that's what you'd expect? 65% of Scots voted to stay in the EU and their government HAS TO represent those wishes, that's what every government is in place for (supposedly).
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 18, 2017 13:14:52 GMT
It can also be said that Scots voted to be governed centrally by the UK, so the Scottish government should do what is best for the U.K. as a whole and not merely follow their own agenda at the expense of everyone.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 18, 2017 13:16:10 GMT
Yes: the only way to avoid close votes in the House is to increase your majority and this is looking like the best time to do it. Five years of actual rule as opposed to compromise look likely as those new MPs will have this early election in this climate to thank for their positions in office and he Whip will remind them of that. On a daily basis.
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Post by Tim on Apr 18, 2017 13:23:05 GMT
It can also be said that Scots voted to be governed centrally by the UK, so the Scottish government should do what is best for the U.K. as a whole and not merely follow their own agenda at the expense of everyone. One of the reasons for that vote was that we were told the best way to remain in the EU was as part of the Union
If you take that and then look at the subsequent Brexit vote I wonder if any people who voted 'NO' would've changed their vote (there's no way of really knowing, I'm not suggesting it would've changed).
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 18, 2017 13:41:04 GMT
True. It would have been interesting if the Scottish referendum occurred after the last general election.
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Post by alf on Apr 18, 2017 13:57:53 GMT
It does seem a fairly shrewd move. It's not an entirely safe one however - there are a lot of people in Tory constituencies - especially urban ones - who will likely vote out their Tory MP in a Brexit protest vote, and a lot of dreamers that see it as a chance to undo Brexit. As always a lot of people will vote on all sorts of weird and wonderful issues they perceive to be important, with very little basis of knowledge.
Personally I see Brexit like a major sporting event that my side lost - I'd rather move on than try to say the referee was bent.
Can you imagine how "well" we would negotiate the exit from Europe with a coalition of Labour (under Corbyn), the SNP, and the Liberals? That is the risk.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 16:07:54 GMT
65% of Scots voted to stay in the EU 41.5% really. 33 per cent didn't bother voting at all. Could've made a difference if they had...
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Post by Alex on Apr 18, 2017 20:00:30 GMT
Personally I see Brexit like a major sporting event that my side lost - I'd rather move on than try to say the referee was bent. An interesting view except that it's not like most sporting events where you can always have another go next year! I agree we should move on when it comes to the result but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be keeping an eye on what the government are doing and take them to task if they fail to do the right thing for the country. My hope now is that when the Tories win (which they most likely will), Corbyn will have to stand down as Labour leader and maybe, just maybe, be replaced by someone with a bit more backbone.
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Post by Stuntman on Apr 18, 2017 20:58:36 GMT
I think it's disappointing that we are going to have another General Election but I can see the logic from May's standpoint. It's probably also good news for the Parliamentary Labour Party because Corbyn will almost certainly be toast shortly afterwards. And I predict that the Lib Dems will be major beneficiaries (relatively speaking of course, they'll be able to fill several minibuses with their MPs rather than just the one currently).
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Post by PG on Apr 18, 2017 21:04:20 GMT
..And I predict that the Lib Dems will be major beneficiaries (relatively speaking of course, they'll be able to fill several minibuses with their MPs rather than just the one currently). It will be interesting to see how many remain Conservatives (and Remain Labour voters who hate Corbyn) might vote Liberal. And also how many former UKIP supporters might come back to the Conservatives now that Brexit is a reality. May is probably hoping that the former are cancelled out by the latter. In which case the polls indicate a healthy majority. Brexit wil also be a Conservative manifesto commitment. Convention states that the Lords do not oppose manifesto commitments and if they do, then the Parliament Act can be used to force the Lords to comply. So with a new mandate, she can also face down the Lords Remainers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 7:04:52 GMT
I think it is a very shrewd move, I am just surprised she didn't call it earlier. The Conservatives are sure to increase their (slim) majority and will have 5 years of stability. I think the SNP might get a bit of a shock.
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Post by ChrisM on Apr 19, 2017 7:16:10 GMT
I think it's disappointing that we are going to have another General Election but I can see the logic from May's standpoint. It's probably also good news for the Parliamentary Labour Party because Corbyn will almost certainly be toast shortly afterwards. +1, damned politicians making/changing the rules to suit themselves again. What happened to the fixed 5-year term between elections? Not suitable? OK then, just ignore it and call a General Election now as we can't control the back-benchers etc. I'd still back Guy Fawkes, the only person to enter the Houses of Parliament with honorable intentions.....
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 19, 2017 8:03:48 GMT
I think it's disappointing that we are going to have another General Election but I can see the logic from May's standpoint. It's probably also good news for the Parliamentary Labour Party because Corbyn will almost certainly be toast shortly afterwards. +1, damned politicians making/changing the rules to suit themselves again. What happened to the fixed 5-year term between elections? Not suitable? OK then, just ignore it and call a General Election now as we can't control the back-benchers etc. I'd still back Guy Fawkes, the only person to enter the Houses of Parliament with honorable intentions..... No changes to the rules: The Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 (c. 14) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that introduced fixed-term elections to the Westminster parliament. Under the provisions of the Act, parliamentary elections must be held every five years, beginning in 2015. The Act received Royal Assent on 15 September 2011. However, a two thirds majority vote in the House of Commons, or a vote of no confidence in the Government, can still trigger a General Election at any time.
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Post by grampa on Apr 19, 2017 8:35:40 GMT
Yes - I think it would be a very bad situation if we could only ever have a five year term of any government.
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Post by Tim on Apr 19, 2017 9:16:02 GMT
65% of Scots voted to stay in the EU 41.5% really. 33 per cent didn't bother voting at all. Could've made a difference if they had... Well, ok then.
At the last election 36% of those who bothered to turn out (64% of the electorate) voted Tory so they actually got a majority with less than 25% of the eligible vote.
Do we really want to go down this route though?
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Post by johnc on Apr 19, 2017 9:28:21 GMT
It can also be said that Scots voted to be governed centrally by the UK, so the Scottish government should do what is best for the U.K. as a whole and not merely follow their own agenda at the expense of everyone. One of the reasons for that vote was that we were told the best way to remain in the EU was as part of the Union
If you take that and then look at the subsequent Brexit vote I wonder if any people who voted 'NO' would've changed their vote (there's no way of really knowing, I'm not suggesting it would've changed).
I don't know anyone who voted NO to Scottish Independence who would have changed their vote if they knew Brexit was coming. In any case, it is an argument made of unconnected facts.
A lot of people I know voted to remain in the EU because they had been almost traumatised by the Indy referendum and all the hatred being thrown around - they were voting for stability and no change: they had had enough of what they considered to be damaging rhetoric from the people who wanted fundamental change.
The two referendum questions are not connected although I will admit it was known that the SNP might use a Brexit vote to try to be divisive again, if a Scottish majority voted to remain.
No-one I know who voted to remain in the EU would vote to leave the UK and even with Brexit now a reality, they (and me) would rather remain part of the UK than become independent and try (over many years) to gain entry to the EU.
I know several people who voted to leave the EU but they are amongst the most vehement opponents of independence, so no correlation should be taken between the two totally separate referendum votes.
Incidentally, I met two Irish people last night who are likely to be staying in Scotland for about 5 years before going back to Ireland or possibly USA. They are massive supporters of Scotland being independent and would vote that way in any Indy2. What I find distasteful is that they can come here for work for 5 years, get a vote and then disappear elsewhere. If nothing else, this has convinced me that major constitutional changes should require at least a 60% majority and at least 75% of the electorate to turn out.
EDIT - back to the original question, I am not particularly in favour of another election and worry about low turnout and voter apathy/complacency. However I can see and understand the reasons.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 19, 2017 9:53:03 GMT
Incidentally, I met two Irish people last night who are likely to be staying in Scotland for about 5 years before going back to Ireland or possibly USA. They are massive supporters of Scotland being independent and would vote that way in any Indy2. What I find distasteful is that they can come here for work for 5 years, get a vote and then disappear elsewhere. If nothing else, this has convinced me that major constitutional changes should require at least a 60% majority and at least 75% of the electorate to turn out.
I often wondered which way I would have voted in the Independence Referendum had we still lived in Scotland. Having no ancestral connections to Scotland (although Mrs. Sacamano is descended from a particularly infamous clan of sheep rustlers and ner-do wells) I think in good conscience all I could have really have done was abstain.
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Post by Tim on Apr 19, 2017 9:54:47 GMT
EDIT - back to the original question, I am not particularly in favour of another election and worry about low turnout and voter apathy/complacency. However I can see and understand the reasons.
I think this is a very good point. Yesterday afternoon I was slightly relieved at the prospect of the coverage of a new election as I was totally fed up with all the Brexit talk.
It appears this morning that all the coverage is going to be from the viewpoint of the election being called to clear up the Brexit mandate
I can see my TV remaining switched off for the next 8 weeks or so.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 19, 2017 14:39:13 GMT
I despise the whole thing. Says he to the surprise of none.
Understanding the reasons and background does not make me despise it any less. There's a school of thought that says a thumping victory for Darth May will allow her to be less beholden to the ultra-Brexit wing of the Tory party and therefore make it easy for her to pursue a soft Brexit rather than a hard one. I tend to think that is pure wishful thinking by those who haven't fully come to terms with the fact that the lemmings actually want to jump off the cliff and May will be there right to the point where she neatly sidesteps the cliff edge and watches them all pour over it.
Mark me down as a conservative who will be out vigorously campaigning to get people to vote against the Tories. It's not just to spite them over Brexshit. It's also because I've discovered I actually don't like May, her way of doing things or her brand of conservatism. It takes the worst of the right and the worst of the left.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 21:43:56 GMT
As soon as the news broke I was wondering how the reporter Jonathan Pie would take it. And sure enough, a few hours later...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2017 0:41:50 GMT
I was disgusted to see how far the BBC news reporters had fallen, shouting pointless questions in an attempt to get someone to say something embarrassing to the leadership. Not exactly happy at another election either but the reasons are logical considering the pointless rhetoric coming from the opposition. Corbyn is blind to the truth of his inability to lead a party and remains as a hindrance to his party. Labour have no credibility while he leads and the limp-damps, well what are they good for? Not much I have seen. So, while I do not see eye to eye with the Tories, they are the ONLY credible part at the moment and the only ones with a leader worthy of the title. While I am not a rich person in any way, the Tories are the ones I will vote for. As for the SNP, Goldfish, she is just trying to convince the Scots that a referendum for an independent Scotland held prior to Brexit happening, can lead to Scotland remaining in the EU, which is patent nonsense. I feel sorry for the Scots that are being conned by herself because they will not get any of the things she tries to convince anyone she can get and an independent Scotland will not be able to pay for the welfare schemes in place now let alone are promised post independence.
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Post by michael on Apr 20, 2017 6:30:07 GMT
I'll be voting conservative. They're the only party who can win and I simply wouldn't want to vote for any of the rest. I would like to see Labour utterly hammered so it sends a clear message to the lunatics on the left that their politics is not mainstream or shared by the country. I'm looking forward to full on assault on Corbyn to begin so that his odious views can be finally but to bed.
I'm not entirely keen on May but in terms of Brexit she's delivering on what the country voted for. The hard / soft and, more latterly, extreme Brexit options are a nonsense in my mind. It was an in or out vote and it's an in or out result, the end of the world it is not.
Rumour has it May won't see through her term but I'd like to see a manifesto which is actually conservative with less government and less social engineering.
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Post by ChrisM on Apr 20, 2017 7:04:28 GMT
I'm not entirely keen on May but in terms of Brexit she's delivering on what the country voted for. The hard / soft and, more latterly, extreme Brexit options are a nonsense in my mind. +1 I have a feeling that this could be a General Election where almost all of the smaller parties are obliterated in the voting
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 20, 2017 7:37:45 GMT
As soon as the news broke I was wondering how the reporter Jonathan Pie would take it. And sure enough, a few hours later... Needs to get a new act that lad, that one's very stale now.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 20, 2017 7:39:56 GMT
I despise the whole thing. Says he to the surprise of none. Understanding the reasons and background does not make me despise it any less. There's a school of thought that says a thumping victory for Darth May will allow her to be less beholden to the ultra-Brexit wing of the Tory party and therefore make it easy for her to pursue a soft Brexit rather than a hard one. I tend to think that is pure wishful thinking by those who haven't fully come to terms with the fact that the lemmings actually want to jump off the cliff and May will be there right to the point where she neatly sidesteps the cliff edge and watches them all pour over it. Mark me down as a conservative who will be out vigorously campaigning to get people to vote against the Tories. It's not just to spite them over Brexshit. It's also because I've discovered I actually don't like May, her way of doing things or her brand of conservatism. It takes the worst of the right and the worst of the left. So if I bump into you campaigning in the street who will you be advising me to vote for? (Academic really as I live in a safe Labour Republic)
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Post by alf on Apr 20, 2017 8:09:20 GMT
Good question Bob. The result of enough people punishing the Conservatives for Brexit would be a Corbyn-led coalition government. And how would that help us exactly? The economimc damage would be vastly greater than that of Brexit alone, not to mention all sorts of other nonsemse from nationalising industries to having tea with terrorists and getting rid of our nuclear deterrent...
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 20, 2017 8:20:27 GMT
Good question Bob. The result of enough people punishing the Conservatives for Brexit would be a Corbyn-led coalition government. And how would that help us exactly? The economimc damage would be vastly greater than that of Brexit alone, not to mention all sorts of other nonsemse from nationalising industries to having tea with terrorists and getting rid of our nuclear deterrent... To be honest I'm fairly relaxed about Brexit; despite voting to Remain I can see the advantages and disadvantages of it. The fact is that anyone who tells you it's going to be brilliant or the end of the World is talking shite - the fact is we really don't know at this stage. What I am fairly confident about is that there is enough self interest on both sides to come to a suitable compromise and if this election enables May to achieve that more easily by getting the Tory Euro sceptics off her back then I'm all for it. What I am certain is that if Corbyn had really believed it was in our best interests to stay in the EU then he should have been out there campaigning hard for it and the fact was he wasn't. A strong Labour, pro-Europe position would have swung it, of that I'm certain, and for that reason I could never vote for that two-faced twat's party. As for the LibDems? Tim Farron concerns me - a gurning fool for the cameras who's religious views on homosexuality deserve a lot more attention. No thanks.
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