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Post by chipbutty on Mar 6, 2018 10:47:56 GMT
I believe I-Pace should be entitled to a Government grant - which will take £4.5k off the price.
As a 90 Kw/h model - it falls between the 75 and 100 Tesla models - pricing therefore appears to compare well in the I-Pace's favour when compared with the S or the X (although they are bigger vehicles). Tesla call their vinyl trim " Vegan Leather" and all of the autonomous gubbins is another £7,500.
I-Pace range figures are quoted on the new (less favourable to friggage) WLTP standard that will knock the stuffing out of all ICE cars when it becomes the norm (unless Governments adjust their CO2 bandings to suit).
I don't believe that Tesla have updated their ranges yet - but they will reduce (75kw Model S is rated at 275 miles on NEDC).
If I do a like for like comparison between base models (Model S 75D) on finance (36 months, 10k per annum, £7k deposit) , the Tesla has a GMFV of 54% off list, the Jaguar 52%.
I'd say that's impressive given Tesla is the clear market lead and has been running restricted supply in the UK for the bulk of it's life.
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Post by johnc on Mar 6, 2018 12:33:15 GMT
I'd have the Jag over a Tesla but the bottom line is that you have to fund around £40,000 depreciation over 3 years + interest and that just makes it far too expensive. I'd like to embrace this new technology but an affordable i3 doesn't even register on the excitement meter and then there's nothing until you get to c£80K (which to put it in perspective is twice what's left on my mortgage and 3 times the cost of my first flat). In between the two there are lots of exciting ICE cars and if purchased privately it makes little impact what the Government do with CO2 percentages.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 6, 2018 12:57:43 GMT
I believe I-Pace should be entitled to a Government grant - which will take £4.5k off the price. As a 90 Kw/h model - it falls between the 75 and 100 Tesla models - pricing therefore appears to compare well in the I-Pace's favour when compared with the S or the X (although they are bigger vehicles). Tesla call their vinyl trim " Vegan Leather" and all of the autonomous gubbins is another £7,500. I-Pace range figures are quoted on the new (less favourable to friggage) WLTP standard that will knock the stuffing out of all ICE cars when it becomes the norm (unless Governments adjust their CO2 bandings to suit). I don't believe that Tesla have updated their ranges yet - but they will reduce (75kw Model S is rated at 275 miles on NEDC). If I do a like for like comparison between base models (Model S 75D) on finance (36 months, 10k per annum, £7k deposit) , the Tesla has a GMFV of 54% off list, the Jaguar 52%. I'd say that's impressive given Tesla is the clear market lead and has been running restricted supply in the UK for the bulk of it's life. Three observations:
(a) at £80k, £4.5k off is a nice-to-have but not going to swing the argument;
(b) the uptake of Teslas isn't huge here either; and
(c) the finance example on Jag's own website using a "boggo" I-Pace S at £63.5k puts the GFV after 36 months at £33k (so 52%) with an annual mileage of 5k, not 10k, so I'm not spotting the like for like comparison.
By the way, that's £2 per mile just in depreciation. Add £8.5k interest charges and that becomes £2.56/mile. And usually the lower down the range, the better the residuals.
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Post by chipbutty on Mar 6, 2018 13:43:16 GMT
Run again to be sure:
Base I-Pace
£7k deposit
10k per annum
37 month agreement
GMFV = £33,003 = 52% of £63,495
If you set the term to 36 months, the GMFV goes up £33,640 = 53%.
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Post by Martin on Mar 6, 2018 13:50:26 GMT
I can’t imagine anyone actually ordering a base model. Not with the standard castors anyway.
So it sounds like a reasonable alternative to a Tesla, but I think they’re much too expensive for what they are, so that’s not going to help (me). I do hope it does well and am impressed that Jaguar have got to market quicker than bigger manufacturers. I hope as many manufacturers as possible keep working hard on the technology to get the price down and the range up.
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Post by chipbutty on Mar 6, 2018 13:59:56 GMT
Not sure what the point is - Jaguar have aligned to the closet (read only) competitor that currently exists and have made sure the I-pace compares more favourably on positioning (save for the finance rate - which Tesla are clearly subventing the crap out of).
Also not clear what the point is - Jaguar have launched a brand new car in a tiny market and are guaranteeing 52% retention at 3 years and 30k miles. I've just configured a Porsche Cayenne S (£68,330) and the quote for 36 months and 30k miles on a £7,000 deposit is based on a GMFV £36,694 (54% of list).
So - you can apply that comment to most £65k - £70k cars, they are all expensive to finance (unless the manufacturer hides a 25% discount in the manufacturer deposit contribution).
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Post by chipbutty on Mar 6, 2018 14:02:09 GMT
I cannot imagine anyone orders a base Tesla or Cayenne S either - but I am trying to keep the comparisons as close as possible to illustrate a point.
Options don't have that much impact on the GMFV - so we may as well use similarly priced base spec cars.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 14:05:55 GMT
I'm not seeing any monthly payments in these calculations.
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Post by Martin on Mar 6, 2018 14:10:45 GMT
I cannot imagine anyone orders a base Tesla or Cayenne S either - but I am trying to keep the comparisons as close as possible to illustrate a point. Options don't have that much impact on the GMFV - so we may as well use similarly priced base spec cars. Neither can I, hence my observation..... Porsche are very conservative with their GMFV (look at the 911s). Not sure how the petrol engines Cayenne will fare though. |
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Post by johnc on Mar 6, 2018 14:25:53 GMT
I'm not seeing any monthly payments in these calculations. On the base model, it is £7K down followed by c£23,500 + interest over 3 years.
My spreadsheet is coming out around £915/mth
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 6, 2018 14:34:24 GMT
My bad - I read the small print to say 5k. I see that it is in fact 10k.
Nevertheless the monthlies on that basic I-Pace are £699 which is really quite a lot.
And the options are eye-watering. Being as restrained as possible, I got an I-Pace S down to £71k. That covered £700 for paint (free on my £40k 4-series), an eye-watering £2.4k to upgrade the wheels from shirt-buttons so hideous it must be deliberate to a design (5070) that I thought actually suited the car, £960 for a panoramic roof that won't even open, £2.25k for the lower-grade of leather in a colour that wasn't one I would normally pick (thanks to the choice being black or beige or fork out nearly £5k), £800 for a powered tailgate/folding mirrors pack (seemed you couldn't have one without the other) and £300 for some ash veneer.
Putting that through Jag's on-line calculator tells me that none of those optional extras make the blindest bit of difference to the GFV of £30k, and means that the monthlies skyrocket to £1,168.
You're better off going for an HSE, which gets most of the above as standard and adds a few other niceties, and which comes out at £77k or £1,225pcm thanks to a rather higher GFV of £38k.
But I'm sorry, either way, that's preposterous. That's fully three times what I pay per month for a well-optioned 440i GC.
I do genuinely like this car but this level of pricing is akin to what is referred to in the pharma industry as "price gouging" and therefore I can't and won't be recommending it to anyone who asks for my opinion unless money is genuinely no-object.
There's your potential customer feedback. Jaguar should take it seriously.
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Post by PG on Mar 6, 2018 14:44:09 GMT
I cannot imagine anyone orders a base Tesla or Cayenne S either - but I am trying to keep the comparisons as close as possible to illustrate a point. Options don't have that much impact on the GMFV - so we may as well use similarly priced base spec cars. Neither can I, hence my observation..... Porsche are very conservative with their GMFV (look at the 911s). Not sure how the petrol engines Cayenne will fare though. Emotionally I think we all somehow think "ooh, electric car, ought to be good value / cheaper somehow". But when you do compare it price wise v other things the same price, the depreciation per mile / lease costs / monthly PCP is about the same (at base or higher FG specs). So the I-Pace isn't aimed at XE / XF / F Pace buyers or their direct competitors, it is aimed at Tesla, Cayenne S, RRS, Panamera drivers. And for them I guess it will be a company purchase - so that means lower BIK, no fuel scale charge (huge saving there), still pretty quick enough with decent range; higher capital allowances (if self employed or via their company). So all that is what makes them sensible company purchases. I think the economics of a private buyer choosing an I-Pace are the same as a private buyer choosing a similarly priced car - can I afford the PCP. You can't buy one expecting to save on that, but you may save on fuel costs. |
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 6, 2018 15:04:19 GMT
Not sure what the point is - Jaguar have aligned to the closet (read only) competitor that currently exists and have made sure the I-pace compares more favourably on positioning (save for the finance rate - which Tesla are clearly subventing the crap out of). Depends who provides their consumer finance.
I see that Jaguar finance is offered by Black Horse on a third party basis. I have no idea what Black Horse's funding costs are but, seeing as it is part of the Lloyds Banking Group, I'm going to guess they are around the 2% mark. So a headline rate of over 6% implies lots of margin for BH and probably little ability by JLR to influence that.
By contrast, the likes of Ford and the big German car companies can offer consumers very cheap financing deals because they have their own tame in-house credit companies who finance themselves through a mixture of bond offerings and securitisation. Such companies have investment grade ratings and their borrowing costs are 1-2% in today's market.
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Post by chipbutty on Mar 6, 2018 15:07:13 GMT
Just out of curiosity - why are you singling out Jaguar for " price gouging " ?
It looks like they are pricing to two levels:
1) Comparable fully electric vehicles
2) Comparably priced premium brand offerings
Metallic paint on that £68k Cayenne S = £749
2 inch wheel upgrade (19s to 21s) = £2,445 to £3,540
Partial leather to standard leather = £2,331 or £2,750 for two tone
etc
etc
etc
Porsche well and truly lead the pack when it comes to option pricing and the standard specs are especially miserly.
How an I-Pace monthly compares to a GC 440i is largely irrelevant - they are completely different vehicles operating in completely different segments. Your BMW pricing is flattered massively by the substantial discount and subvented financing that BMW are having to support the car with to shift the required units.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 6, 2018 15:47:05 GMT
Just out of curiosity - why are you singling out Jaguar for " price gouging " ? I'm not. I'm simply calling a spade a spade in a discussion which is about a Jaguar. Just because Porsche does it too, doesn't make it acceptable. Porsche is famous for its profit margins, especially on its SUVs. I'm not picking on Jaguar. If this was a new BMW or Mercedes and the same pricing/options approach applied, I'd make precisely the same comment.
Jaguars used to be known as upmarket cars that nevertheless offered a sound value for money prospect in terms of FG. That is evidently long gone. You can argue this all you like but from where I am sitting it looks very much like JLR has put premium pricing (a good £10k in my view) on this because it thinks it can get away with it because Tesla has. I have two observations on that: (a) it is of course perfectly entitled to do so and (b) very possibly it get away with it can since there's never any shortage of people willing to pay through the nose for the latest thing. You aren't even pretending otherwise, but at least admit it.
And the comparison to a potential customer's existing choice is always relevant whether you like it or not. I looked at the Tesla before deciding it too was just too pricey and too compromised for the time being. So I'd expect a 4-series Gran Coupe and a Jaguar I-Pace have a pretty similar customer profile (in fact the next 4GC is going to be electric I hear, which speaks volumes).
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 6, 2018 16:03:14 GMT
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Post by scouse on Mar 6, 2018 16:15:39 GMT
These bits in spades. The pricing strategy worked well enough for Mercedes/BMW in the '80s when their equipment levels were ducks arse tight and continues to work well for any manufacturuer who produces something either genuinely new/different/special |
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 6, 2018 16:41:21 GMT
Time will tell and Tesla may be different.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 18:17:41 GMT
The other issue is that Jaguar are paying an Austrian company to build the chassis for them, rather than designing and building it in house.
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Post by johnc on Mar 7, 2018 8:06:33 GMT
I agree that Jaguar might be able to sell all they can make at £75K+ but someone will come to the market with the volume £30K - £40K family car/SUV which has good range and is a realistic, attractive replacement for the cars that most people drive - whoever that is will start the revolution if the product is right and they will reap the benefits. My money is on Audi or BMW with an outside chance of Kia/Hyundai getting in on the act.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 7, 2018 8:17:41 GMT
I agree that Jaguar might be able to sell all they can make at £75K+ but someone will come to the market with the volume £30K - £40K family car/SUV which has good range and is a realistic, attractive replacement for the cars that most people drive - whoever that is will start the revolution if the product is right and they will reap the benefits. My money is on Audi or BMW with an outside chance of Kia/Hyundai getting in on the act. It’s here; Tesla Model 3. $35k without incentives. |
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Post by PetrolEd on Mar 7, 2018 9:03:30 GMT
It was supposed to be the Tesla 3 but they seem to be struggling to upscale production and it seems to be more aligned to a leaf or i3 than a Model S in terms of features.
I need to have a poke around the Jag as from the pics I'm not a fan but no doubt it'll be better in the flesh. I guess price is irrelevant to a certain extent as they'll be bought by SME business owners who are just looking for a car to maximise the offset on their tax bill.
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Post by PG on Mar 7, 2018 12:36:30 GMT
Seems like Audi are also going to price the E-Tron right up there with the Tesla crowd - from today's Autocar article on the E-Tron -
Audi has previously said the E-tron will “cost about the same as a well-specced Audi A6”, suggesting it will have an entry-level price of at least £60,000. The I-Pace is priced from £58,995.
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Post by johnc on Mar 7, 2018 13:04:07 GMT
Seems like Audi are also going to price the E-Tron right up there with the Tesla crowd - from today's Autocar article on the E-Tron - Audi has previously said the E-tron will “cost about the same as a well-specced Audi A6”, suggesting it will have an entry-level price of at least £60,000. The I-Pace is priced from £58,995.Let's hope it's like any new technology and that it will get cheaper each year - some hope! I consider myself to be reasonably well off but I cannot afford depreciation of £1,000/mth. Something will have to give before it is remotely mainstream. |
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Post by Tim on Mar 7, 2018 13:36:54 GMT
I read the editorial in the current issue of BMW Car mag and it makes the point that all the 'buyers' of the hybrid versions of all BMWs normal saloons (so excluding the I cars) are business users who are doing it solely for tax and have zero interest in plugging their car in anywhere.
So, as with diesel, a situation is being created that causes extra pollution (manufacturing the batteries plus hauling them round in the car) simply in the name of tax for the majority of these cars on the road.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2018 15:53:46 GMT
I don't know anyone who thinks the system is particularly smart. Whatever the system, there will be an equal con.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2018 16:01:56 GMT
The Tesla website said no RHD Model 3s until at least 2019 last time I looked. Probably why Jag got in early. If they had released this car next year the price would look even more of a piss take than it does now.
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 8, 2018 17:05:37 GMT
They're renaming the E-tron in France the M-Erde.
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Post by PetrolEd on Mar 9, 2018 20:53:26 GMT
And why it was called a Toyota MR not MR2 in france
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Post by Roadrunner on Mar 17, 2018 23:38:37 GMT
I saw an I-Pace today parked on drive near me, plugged in. White, with 'Prototype Vehicle ' on the back it looked very good and would look fabulous in a proper colour.
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