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Post by Martin on Feb 20, 2018 19:17:13 GMT
So, Porsche have decided that they won’t make any more diesels and will focus on petrols / hybrids. Evo article is not 100% accurate as the new Panamera was launched with a V8 diesel, but they did stop making that a few months ago. Evo article |
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 20, 2018 21:45:22 GMT
Excellent. Others will follow.
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Post by michael on Feb 20, 2018 23:08:01 GMT
I’m not entirely surprised as hybridisation makes far more sense for performance as Lexus has been demonstrating for some time. I would hope this would accelerate the technology development and that it might then filter into the rest of the VAG empire. I wonder if Bentley will follow suit?
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Post by Roadsterstu on Feb 21, 2018 8:31:26 GMT
I'd be surprised if Bentley didn't follow soon.
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Post by PetrolEd on Feb 21, 2018 9:22:37 GMT
I still don't "get" hybrids in their current format. Dragging round all those batteries when you can't use them 95% of the time and the lies about economy and CO2 levels make diesels look honest. I generally hate diesels but even I still see the benefit in larger SUV's and the like.
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Post by chipbutty on Feb 21, 2018 9:36:13 GMT
Disappointing - the V8 diesel they put in the Panamera is awesome and it would have been awesome in the Cayenne.
The 440 bhp V6 turbo isn't as fast, effortless or economical as the V8 diesel.
I assume in terms of global production footprint, the diesels have a small impact, but in the UK I can see gaps in the range that will cost them sales in the short term.
Hybrids are overweight nonsense and I assumed WLTP reduced their " test " benefits.
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Post by racingteatray on Feb 21, 2018 10:57:51 GMT
The 440 bhp V6 turbo isn't as fast, effortless or economical as the V8 diesel. Mmm. But perhaps they would be forced to make it so if there was no easier diesel alternative? |
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Post by Tim on Feb 21, 2018 12:15:40 GMT
I still don't "get" hybrids in their current format. Dragging round all those batteries when you can't use them 95% of the time and the lies about economy and CO2 levels make diesels look honest. I generally hate diesels but even I still see the benefit in larger SUV's and the like.
CAR mag have a Golf GTE hybrid thingy on long term test and from memory it gets less than 40mpg each month. The Honda Civic 1.5 turbo petrol they have gets similar economy. |
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 21, 2018 12:36:22 GMT
Surely hybrid efficiency is dependent on usage? Charging up and down the motorway at 70mph every day is pointless in a car designed to emit no shit at 7mph in town but for me a hybrid makes more sense than I'm actually willing to admit: in fact for the work the E46 does a full electric car would be more sensible.
I can't imagine CAR have been pooling their Golf GTE around Kingston for a couple of months on test.
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Post by Tim on Feb 21, 2018 13:21:57 GMT
They don't mention the type of usage, hell they don't even mention the abysmal fuel economy apart from noting it in the summary stats.
However if we're going to believe that hybrids are feasible then tooling up and down the motorway is as relevant a test as any otherwise you're saying a hybrid should only be considered as a city car?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 13:22:28 GMT
CAR mag have a Golf GTE hybrid thingy on long term test and from memory it gets less than 40mpg each month. That doesn't sound right. I get more than that from my car, which has the same engine. Bit weird that adding hybrid tech would make the consumption worse, unless it adds so much weight that it does in fact do just that??? |
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 21, 2018 14:36:55 GMT
They don't mention the type of usage, hell they don't even mention the abysmal fuel economy apart from noting it in the summary stats. However if we're going to believe that hybrids are feasible then tooling up and down the motorway is as relevant a test as any otherwise you're saying a hybrid should only be considered as a city car? I'm in no position to consider any economy above the 18.2mpg average I get as abysmal. In their current guise and with the current economy available hybrids should be measured in the light of usage. If you have a mix of driving that errs towards town driving then a hybrid may be best whereas longer journeys made more frequently would probably benefit from some other form of propulsion. We're getting perilously close to advocating private aircraft with electric cars at either end for longer commutes if we all drive big V8s.... |
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Post by Martin on Feb 21, 2018 15:13:58 GMT
They don't mention the type of usage, hell they don't even mention the abysmal fuel economy apart from noting it in the summary stats. However if we're going to believe that hybrids are feasible then tooling up and down the motorway is as relevant a test as any otherwise you're saying a hybrid should only be considered as a city car? I'm in no position to consider any economy above the 18.2mpg average I get as abysmal. In their current guise and with the current economy available hybrids should be measured in the light of usage. If you have a mix of driving that errs towards town driving then a hybrid may be best whereas longer journeys made more frequently would probably benefit from some other form of propulsion. We're getting perilously close to advocating private aircraft with electric cars at either end for longer commutes if we all drive big V8s.... Panamera Turbo S sounds ideal for you! (I’d be very happy with one as well) |
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Post by Martin on Feb 21, 2018 15:15:32 GMT
Disappointing - the V8 diesel they put in the Panamera is awesome and it would have been awesome in the Cayenne. The 440 bhp V6 turbo isn't as fast, effortless or economical as the V8 diesel. I assume in terms of global production footprint, the diesels have a small impact, but in the UK I can see gaps in the range that will cost them sales in the short term. Hybrids are overweight nonsense and I assumed WLTP reduced their " test " benefits. Agreed. I’ve been looking at a man maths solution for a 12 month old 4S Diesel. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Feb 21, 2018 15:24:43 GMT
I still don't "get" hybrids in their current format. Dragging round all those batteries when you can't use them 95% of the time and the lies about economy and CO2 levels make diesels look honest. I generally hate diesels but even I still see the benefit in larger SUV's and the like. They make perfect sense if you understand why they were developed and don't focus on economy. Toyota developed their hybrid Prius in the 90s partly in response to California's Ultra Low Emission Vehicle legislation that was expected to become ever more stringent, effectively outlawing petrol cars in the cities. The hybrid system meant that cars that were stuck in traffic jams and inching along were not emitting any exhaust gases as they were running on battery power alone, enabling them to meet the requirements of the regs. The fact that they were more economical than an ordinary petrol was a nice bonus but not their main reason for existence - anyway petrol was so cheap in the US that it wasn't considered a major selling point. |
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Post by racingteatray on Feb 21, 2018 15:28:12 GMT
Surely hybrid efficiency is dependent on usage? Charging up and down the motorway at 70mph every day is pointless in a car designed to emit no shit at 7mph in town but for me a hybrid makes more sense than I'm actually willing to admit: in fact for the work the E46 does a full electric car would be more sensible. I can't imagine CAR have been pooling their Golf GTE around Kingston for a couple of months on test. Oh it would make total sense for my wife's car to be electric since her commute to Brentford is only 8 miles and apart from the occasional run out to Stockley Park, it never ventures outside the M25. Plus we have a driveway which already has an external electricity socket.
The reason for not doing it is purely financial, which is what the lefty loonies don't get. The 500, which with a mere 17k on the clock is still pretty much as new, costs buttons to run and might be worth £5k on a good day, whereas even shifting to the cheapest electric alternative (such as an electric Smart forfour or a Zoe) will require shelling out at least £10k on top of the value of the 500 even after you take the govt grant and manufacturer discounts into account.
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Post by racingteatray on Feb 21, 2018 15:40:40 GMT
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 21, 2018 16:01:43 GMT
This end of the wedge when you start looking...... |
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 21, 2018 16:04:54 GMT
I'm in no position to consider any economy above the 18.2mpg average I get as abysmal. In their current guise and with the current economy available hybrids should be measured in the light of usage. If you have a mix of driving that errs towards town driving then a hybrid may be best whereas longer journeys made more frequently would probably benefit from some other form of propulsion. We're getting perilously close to advocating private aircraft with electric cars at either end for longer commutes if we all drive big V8s.... Panamera Turbo S sounds ideal for you! (I’d be very happy with one as well) The one I looked at with most interest on the ST launch day was the Turbo V8 petrol. I've said before I was hoping the new Alpina B5 would be hybrid as it would make total sense for me: electric where needed; lunacy where wanted. I'll start looking at used 3.0 six 3-series hybrids again.... |
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Post by michael on Feb 21, 2018 16:09:26 GMT
Given your mileage why do you need a hybrid in your B5 type car? Are you supposing emissions legislation will curtail your reasonable use?
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Post by PetrolEd on Feb 21, 2018 16:20:13 GMT
This end of the wedge when you start looking...... The reason they're so cheap is Renault do that daft battery leasing scheme which adds significantly to the cost of the car. |
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 21, 2018 16:54:04 GMT
Given your mileage why do you need a hybrid in your B5 type car? Are you supposing emissions legislation will curtail your reasonable use? It's for the driving round town: it is galling seeing 7mpg. In reality though it would be a relatively small difference so W2.0's car being a hybrid or electric would be better. |
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Post by Tim on Feb 21, 2018 17:08:58 GMT
I was looking at the discounts available on diesels earlier but I think its too late now as things are changing so fast.
I can't find a link to the story but the BBC News live business feed is reporting a court case in Germany where an environmental group has brought an action in relation to banning diesels from city centres.
Copied below
"There is a ruling due in Germany’s Federal Administrative Court on Thursday which could have a significant impact on the future of diesel - perhaps taking a chunk out of carmakers’ profits as well.
The court will give its verdict on whether or not the states of Baden-Wuerttemberg and North Rhine-Westphalia can impose bans on some diesels in their respective capitals, Stuttgart and Duesseldorf.
Both cities were ordered to introduce bans on older diesels by regional courts, following cases brought by a German environmental group, DUH (Deutsche Umwelthilfe).
They appealed – and now the administrative court has to take the final decision.
If the bans have to be introduced, carmakers may try to get around them by retrofitting – but that would be very expensive.
This case focuses on Germany but it could have wide ranging ramifications across Europe.
The court ruling will decide effectively whether diesel bans are - in principle – a legitimate way to improve air quality in cities. If they are, then the argument is that cities would be acting illegally if they don’t use them when pollution is high.
The DUH is trying to force the issue in Stuttgart and Duesseldorf, saying those cities are not doing enough to improve air quality.
However, if the DUH wins, it would have repercussions for a whole load of other towns and cities across Germany which currently breach air quality limits – they could then potentially be sued as well for not having introduced bans."
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Post by racingteatray on Feb 21, 2018 17:51:46 GMT
This end of the wedge when you start looking...... Yadda yadda. As you say, this is for bimbling about inner London and inner-city commuting. At my wife's company HQ, they have special dedicated parking bays for smart cars and if you have a smart car you are exempt from the usual parking rota (whereby you don't get an allocated space every fourth week and have to make alternative arrangements). That's why she used to have one. She only changed it for the 500 when her team was shifted from HQ to Stockley Park which meant having to tackle the M4 twice a day, which she found precisely zero fun in a smart fortwo. Now she's changed role and is back at HQ. |
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 21, 2018 18:31:05 GMT
Stockley Park is zero fun fullstop! I did a 6month stint writing an outsource document to Johnson Controls for EDS back in the '90s and ended up using EDS' Berkley Square offices most days as SP was just dire to get in and out of.
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Post by racingteatray on Feb 21, 2018 19:43:21 GMT
Mmm, she's not a fan either.
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Post by PG on Feb 21, 2018 20:06:48 GMT
Electric cars depreciate really heavily. I think it is a combination of too high new prices (most being bought on lease with manufacturer support) and people's fear of battery life. Whereas in reality, there is a lot less to go wrong than on an ICE car. Try looking at second hand Leafs for cheap motoring.... |
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Post by michael on Feb 21, 2018 20:36:24 GMT
Try looking at second hand Leafs .. I think that’s needlessly cruel. Nobody should have to look at a Leaf. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2018 21:35:56 GMT
No, there are perfectly good NEW wheelbarrows around.
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Post by Roadrunner on Feb 22, 2018 8:20:20 GMT
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