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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 9:06:18 GMT
Recent US school shooting - stats from Wikipedia:
There were 226 shootings during the 20th century:
break-down[edit]
During the first decade of the 20th century there were 15 (the first shooting was during 1903 (2), 1904 (3), 1905 (2), 1907 (2), 1908 (2), 1909 (4).
During the second decade there were 19. (1910 (3), 1911, 1912 (2), 1914, 1915 (2), 1916 (2), 1917 (2), 1918 (2), 1919 (3).
The 3rd : 10 (1920 (7), 22 (2), 26).
The 1930's : 9 (30, 31, 34, 35, 36 (2), 37 (2), 38).
The 5th decade: 8 (40 (2), 42, 46, 47, 48, 49 (2)).
The 6th : 17 (50, 51 (4), 52 (2), 53, 54 (2), 55, 56 (2), 57, 58 (2), 59).
During the 1960's : 18 (60 (3), 61 (2), 66 (4), 67, 68 (4), 69 (4)).
The 8th decade: 30 (70 (5), 71 (2), 73 (2), 74 (4), 75 (3), 76 (3), 77, 78 (7), 79 (3)).
The 9th : 39 (80 (4), 81 (3), 82 (3), 83, 84 (4), 85 (5), 86 (5), 87 (5), 88 (6), 89 (3)).
The 10th: 62 shootings (90 (2), 91 (6), 92 (5), 93 (9), 94 (10), 95 (4), 96 (7), 97 (6), 98 (7), 99 (6)).
21st century[edit]
total[edit]
From the commencement of the 21st century to the most recently occurring shooting (of February 14, 2018), the number of shootings is 212:
break-down[edit]
During the 1st decade there were 60 (2000 (5 shootings), 2001 (5), 02 (7), 03 (4), 05 (5), 06 (11), 07 (5), 08 (11), 09 (7))
During the 2010's (incl. February 14, 2018) there were 143 shootings (during 2010, 11 shootings, 2011 (7), 12 (11), 13 (26), 14 (36), 15 (21), 16 (15), 17 (9), 18 (7)).
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Post by johnc on Feb 15, 2018 9:31:04 GMT
But the "obvious answer" is to arm more people so that there is more chance that they can shoot the perpetrator.
Or step back and think would a teenager who is pissed off with his school and teachers for kicking him out, have to find other ways to vent his immediate anger if he couldn't get easy access to a gun? |
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Post by michael on Feb 15, 2018 9:36:26 GMT
There are countries with higher rates of gun ownership with fewer, if any cases of school shootings. So maybe the issue isn't the guns? Not a popular virtue signalling approach I accept but tackling the issue at cause is more likely to net a result especially as gun ownership is so protected by constitutional law.
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Post by Tim on Feb 15, 2018 9:57:59 GMT
The issue isn't the guns but simply the mindset that makes the perpetrator reach for the gun when they have their 'issue' that's the problem.
However, in a few days time it will have been forgotten about (as happened with the Las Vegas shooting) and Trump and the gun lobby will make some statement about banning Muslims and building the wall to keep the Mexcican murderers out, conveniently ignoring the fact that the vast majority of these mass shootings have been carried out by white American men.
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 15, 2018 11:23:07 GMT
Another reason for me to never return there.
It’s February and there have been 18 school shootings in the US in 2018. Mental. Totally mental.
In the 70s and 80s we were told what an evil, restrictive, despotic regime the Soviet Union was; in what was Czechoslovakia at the time the people were told what a lawless, murderous, dangerous place the West, and especially the US, was. One place has changed; one hasn’t.
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Post by Tim on Feb 15, 2018 11:57:33 GMT
in what was Czechoslovakia at the time the people were told what a lawless, murderous, dangerous place the West, and especially the US, was. One place has changed; one hasn’t.
The modern day Czech Republic appears to be full of miserable bastards who keep to themselves so perhaps they avoid shootings that way?*
*My brother in law's partner is from Prague and, until we did some research recently, we thought it was just her who was a cold, humourless, intolerant person but it looks like there's a nation of them!
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Post by johnc on Feb 15, 2018 12:11:06 GMT
in what was Czechoslovakia at the time the people were told what a lawless, murderous, dangerous place the West, and especially the US, was. One place has changed; one hasn’t.
The modern day Czech Republic appears to be full of miserable bastards who keep to themselves so perhaps they avoid shootings that way?*
*My brother in law's partner is from Prague and, until we did some research recently, we thought it was just her who was a cold, humourless, intolerant person but it looks like there's a nation of them!
My brother in law lives in the Czech Republic and he fits in very well! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 12:16:46 GMT
The comparison with Canada has been made before, and better than I could. But Canada is about as culturally and geographically similar to the US as is possible and has (or at least had) even greater gun ownership levels - without the history of mass shootings. So it isn't guns per se, but as there are other issues that seem to cause the US's (at best) dysfunctional status, I can't see there's any logical argument against restrictions on access (and ease of access) to guns.
BB, it's only 7 YTD. I was going to say mercifully, but that would be a fucking small mercy - one school shooting per week... |
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 15, 2018 12:23:42 GMT
I must’ve misheard the numbers as I was cleaning my collection of assault rifles over breakfast.
edit: Just looked on BBC news site: still says this was the 18th this year.
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 15, 2018 13:05:21 GMT
Just read that the shooter was not allowed on campus previously wearing a backpack.
Assault rifles are fine, but no backpacks.... OK?
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Post by michael on Feb 15, 2018 13:08:34 GMT
Kinder eggs are banned in the US.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 14:59:03 GMT
I must’ve misheard the numbers as I was cleaning my collection of assault rifles over breakfast. edit: Just looked on BBC news site: still says this was the 18th this year. Yes, I just saw that too. Clearly the right to bear arms trumps the right to bear children... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 19:15:01 GMT
To my mind, a gun is a tool and unless you are in a career/role where they are needed it is best to avoid them altogether.
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Post by michael on Feb 15, 2018 21:19:21 GMT
Yes, I just saw that too. Clearly the right to bear arms trumps the right to bear children... The problem is that it is a right and I can’t see it being given up without a fight - that’s why it’s there after all. The media has been blamed for the threat perception in the US so there may be work to do there but how effective would that be? I genuinely think it’s a hopeless situation as any government who tried to introduce control would realistically face uprising in some states with risk of further bloodshed. For that reason I think targeting guns in the sense of direct gun control is the wrong thing to do. I don’t know what the solution is but it’d be worth looking at successful long term behaviour change interventions like (without sounding glib) the stop smoking campaigns. The real success there was making smoking less socially acceptable than it was and the challenge is to do the same with gun ownership. |
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Post by johnc on Feb 16, 2018 8:36:47 GMT
Until there is a will, there will never be a way - only then might public perceptions be changed very slowly over a very long time with many thousands losing their lives before they get there.
I think part of the problem is the law. It is very black and white with no reasonableness test which is how our laws were derived but unfortunately legislation is making laws here much more absolute - that causes resentment, feelings of uselessness and then results in unreasonable behaviour as the only way to vent the frustration and anger.
I am not making light of this but I wonder if he was told why he wasn't allowed a backpack or if it was the authoritarian "No backpacks allowed", "why?", "because no backpacks allowed". Reasonableness will normally overcome most problems but authoritarianism tends to create them. I haven't gone all mega liberal but there are ways of treating people which work and ways which provoke a reaction. Easy access to guns with a system which makes people feel useless is a recipe for disaster. |
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 16, 2018 10:26:49 GMT
You need to be 25 to hire a car in the US
You need to be 21 to buy alcohol in the US
You can buy an assault rifle at 18 in the US.
They're basically fucked and we should leave them to that part of their society.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2018 11:05:03 GMT
I must’ve misheard the numbers as I was cleaning my collection of assault rifles over breakfast. edit: Just looked on BBC news site: still says this was the 18th this year. I can't tell whether 18 is schools or all shootings - it seems hard to find an answer. And so bad either way that I'm not sure I have any more energy to devote to it. |
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Post by ChrisM on Feb 17, 2018 17:45:36 GMT
Yes, I just saw that too. Clearly the right to bear arms trumps the right to bear children... There as a discussion on the radio a few days back, just after the "latest" shooting.... the Americans do indeed value the right to bear arms above almost everything else something to do with feeling that they have the ability to defend themselves from anyone "nasty" and a throwback to days when the Federal Government may send someone round to your home to cart you off somewhere that you don't want to go to...... |
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Post by PG on Feb 17, 2018 19:08:41 GMT
This table of gun deaths is worth a look - it shows "Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year". You can sort each column to see how countries rank. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rateWhilst the US clearly does have a problem, it isn't even in the top 10. But it is higher than most other OECD countries for death caused by guns. However, if you look at "deaths per gun" it ranks the same as France. So one could argue that considering how many guns there are, the death rate is actually low. Which is utterly counter-intuitive. The right to bear arms is so ingrained into US culture that I can't see it going away. The problem seems to be as much cultural as anything else. So a long term programme of teaching about guns' dangers and safe use and so forth is going to be needed. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2018 21:45:11 GMT
I have not heard of mass shootings in france outside terrorism.
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Post by PG on Feb 18, 2018 10:12:09 GMT
I have not hear of mass shootings in france outside terrorism. Very true. Mass shootings are a very US issue. Which comes back to the cultural factors that seem to make "resolution by gun" a US mind set. |
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 18, 2018 19:29:37 GMT
The problem with the 2nd amendment is that it didn’t envisage assault rifles. There is no issue with having a handgun in the house when all others have access to arms but there is no reason whatsoever for any private individual to have a firearm that has the ability to fire 30+ rounds per second.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 19:54:45 GMT
According to that wikipedia page there are more guns in the US than people.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 20:37:04 GMT
If you have the money, you can acquire an early M-60 and that will really do some damage. Based on the German MG-42 and of 7.62mm calibre, a half second burst will rip a body in two from nearly 600 metres. Taking a good look at the number of heavy weapons available in the US makes me wonder how they have not got much worse events unfolding. www.gunbroker.com/50-Cal-Machine-Gun/Browse.aspx?Keywords=50&Cats=3024 If someone was to use one of those the rounds would go in one side of the Commando armoured cars used for various control of crowds situations, and clean through the other side before carrying on for about a mile. |
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Post by PG on Feb 19, 2018 6:44:10 GMT
The problem with the 2nd amendment is that it didn’t envisage assault rifles. There is no issue with having a handgun in the house when all others have access to arms but there is no reason whatsoever for any private individual to have a firearm that has the ability to fire 30+ rounds per second. Yes, technology has moved on quite a lot since muskets which were the weapon of choice when the 2nd amendment was drawn up. Although to play devil's advocate, you are quite right, people do not need assault weapons to defend their home. So they should be kept from general circulation. Much as people do not need cars or bikes that are capable of exceeding the speed limit, so perhaps they should be taken from general circulation too? After all, people die on the roads. But at least you have a take a driving test to get access to a car. |
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Post by scouse on Feb 19, 2018 12:25:28 GMT
No mass shooting in the US has used an 'assault rifle'. The AR15 and it's derivatives uses the same .223 cartridge as any other hunting rifle.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 12:39:21 GMT
It depends on what is being hunted, a lot of rifles still use .30 or .308 to the modern 7mm sizes. The smaller types would be used for smaller game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 12:51:23 GMT
Like children?
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Post by michael on Feb 19, 2018 13:05:03 GMT
It would be very difficult to single out assault rifles as of the 11-12 thousand annual gun deaths in the US the vast majority are from hand guns so there is more of a case to ban those.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2018 13:15:28 GMT
More like rabbits etc. 7.62/.30 etc would only leave enough to make a stock from. No idea why making it much harder to get a license in the first place is such a problem axcept it would lead to fewer sales and some companies facing an uncertain future. So, no down side then. |
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