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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2022 10:57:52 GMT
So Red Bull busted the cap last year along with Aston.
Not that the FIA will do anything but, should they decide to save face, what do you think is the likely 'punishment'?
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 2, 2022 10:10:32 GMT
As with Schumacher when he shunted Villeneuve off in a clear contradiction of the rules, exclusion is the only correct solution. Team and Drivers.
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Post by Alex on Oct 2, 2022 22:08:19 GMT
As with Schumacher when he shunted Villeneuve off in a clear contradiction of the rules, exclusion is the only correct solution. Team and Drivers. It'll never happen, the FIA got the biggest splodge of egg all over their face when Masi made an utter pigs ear of what was billed as the most important race this century for the sport that the last thing they need is to turn it into an even bigger cow pat of a situation by declaring that the winning protagonists shouldn't have even been allowed to compete as his team were cheating. From Lewis's point of view the only way he wants to win is on track which is why despite the shock of how he lost, he never really wanted to pursue any form of retribution. Handing him his eighth title now would sit right with him and I doubt he'd accept it.
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Post by Sav on Oct 10, 2022 23:01:44 GMT
I suspect this will be like 2007 and spygate. Max Mosley wanted McLaren excluded from both championships, but various FIA members from selected countries such as Spain lobbied against McLaren being excluded from the drivers championship because of how entertaining that year had been. I doubt that the FIA would want to take away Vertappen’s championship for a similar-reason. But say Verstappen's car had failed Abu Dhabi 2021 post-race scrutineering he would have been disqualified. So that’s where the question lies, what sort of punishment will they hand out? If not harsh enough, it might encourage other teams to spend a bit more and get away with a penalty that won’t affect their championship-position.
It could be argued that 2021 was such a close-battle, greater spending on upgrades could have been advantageous…this is even more of a farce now.
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Post by PetrolEd on Oct 11, 2022 8:42:20 GMT
I was speaking to a mate who was in F1 for years about the budget cap and he was commenting that they were spending in the late 90's what they are apparently spending today. In his words they were all fiddling the books which I can half believe. I have no idea how you monitor the spend of teams all with different resources and access to group/top companies with all the benefits that entails. Still first rule if you cheat is don't get caught and it seems Aston and RB have been the ones caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
I had to laugh at Binotto suggesting that $5m spend is worth half a second on the track. In what world has he been living in for the last 30 years?
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Post by johnc on Oct 11, 2022 10:04:34 GMT
I see that the FIA accepted what the teams presented to them for the amount of spend without auditing the figures further. There must be countless ways to deceive the FIA e.g. If you have a second team you could ensure that some of the first teams costs get processed as if they were for the second team or some of the aero and other development work could be shared to an extent. It would also be possible to get a title sponsor to pay a supplier or staff directly and avoid that expense coming through the team's accounts.
Without full scrutiny the figures could be miles out.
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 14, 2022 13:34:05 GMT
Drivers are routinely paid directly by headline sponsors.
I was at Lee McKenzie’s book launch yesterday and she, Karyn Chanduk and Ted Kravitz all said next weeks media sessions with RBR and AM are going to be awkward because basically there’s no escaping the fact they lied to their faces last weekend about how clean their spending was.
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Post by PetrolEd on Oct 14, 2022 13:51:54 GMT
Rumer has it that RB's overspend has come about from how they pay Adrian Newey. As a top employee I understand that they sit outside the cost cap but because Adrian is a contractor his salary has to sit inside the cost cap. I guess that's an understandable error if the rumer is true but also should mean that the cost cap needs review.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 16:22:43 GMT
Either way, outside the cost cap gives the opposition an opportunity. I would have thought RB were too sharp to allow that sort of oversight.
Unless its not an oversight?
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Post by Alex on Oct 15, 2022 22:15:39 GMT
The cost cap is in essence a simple concept. Set an amount the teams can spend and penalise those who go above it. The trouble comes when it's managed like a tax code with all sorts of deductions and allowances which teams can play about with and clearly have been. In RBs case I suspect they spent money they thought wasnt included in the cap and the FIA have determined it has.
The bigger problem is punishment and more to the point the fact that the exact punishments and how they're determined hasn't been set out in the first place. The FIA seem to be stuck in a position where they don't really know what to do. Disqualification of Max from the '21 championship would be politically unpalatable especially given how intense a title fight we had but just disqualifying Red Bull makes it worth the punishment from their point of view if it meant the difference between Max and Lewis winning the championship.
It seems they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Penalise Max and many fans will be upset, possibly enough to stop watching but punish just the team and some would argue it's worth spending a bit extra to get your driver over the line for a championship win as its not like anyone really remembers the constructors champions (how many viewers are oblivious that Merc won that championship in '21?).
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Post by Stuntman on Oct 16, 2022 9:22:26 GMT
If there was any justice in the world, Lewis Hamilton would be awarded the 2021 F1 World Championship. Anything other than that outcome makes a mockery of any such cost cap 'rules'.
But that will almost certainly not happen. F1 is now about entertainment rather than actually being a serious sport.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2022 12:49:22 GMT
F1 is about protecting the bottm line, the money going into it and the FIA.
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Post by Alex on Oct 16, 2022 14:58:37 GMT
If there was any justice in the world, Lewis Hamilton would be awarded the 2021 F1 World Championship. Anything other than that outcome makes a mockery of any such cost cap 'rules'. But that will almost certainly not happen. F1 is now about entertainment rather than actually being a serious sport. The way last season ended I think that the FIA can't afford to ruin the reputation further by changing the result on this basis. This seasons complete failure of the new regs to bring closer racing and stop one car and driver buggering off into the distance is, I can only imagine, causing many viewers to turn off - I've maybe watched 2 or 3 races this year compared to the entire last season and I'm not the only one. If this team has had a runaway season off the back of winning one by cheating it'll take a lot to win back a sense of credibility in the sport.
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Post by Ben on Oct 16, 2022 16:00:44 GMT
Simply deduct the amount they've exceeded by from next season's cap. That way they will still be penalised but not retrospectively.
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 16, 2022 18:44:10 GMT
This seasons complete failure of the new regs to bring closer racing and stop one car and driver buggering off into the distance is, I can only imagine, causing many viewers to turn off - I've maybe watched 2 or 3 races this year compared to the entire last season and I'm not the only one. If this team has had a runaway season off the back of winning one by cheating it'll take a lot to win back a sense of credibility in the sport. Similar story here. I still make some effort to see races but if I miss them live I can’t be arsed with highlights or catch up. I used to argue that the behind-the-scenes shenanigans of F1 was part of the attraction but it’s now not about teams’ gamesmanship but utter failure by the governing body to put a guard rail around those shenanigans. Contrast that to MotoGP which is under fire for becoming reliant on a single manufacturer (Ducati) exacerbated by Suzuki’s shock withdrawal in 2023 announced in May but counter that with 7 different race winners this season, a showdown for the title still on as we approach November and this morning’s race from Australia meeting every single expectation you’d want from a motor race. Seriously if you get the chance to see it watch it - that’s what racing is. I still love F1 but can’t help feeling it’s more the anticipation than the event these days. A bit like my sex life.
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Post by Alex on Oct 17, 2022 12:14:10 GMT
Simply deduct the amount they've exceeded by from next season's cap. That way they will still be penalised but not retrospectively. Nice idea but if I were an F1 team I'd be more than happy to sacrifice some of next years budget by overspending this year if it resulted in a championship win. When more teams cotton on to this you could have a farcical situation where half the grid have been cheating in the hope of getting a championship advantage!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2022 15:06:49 GMT
I doubt it would stop at half.
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 17, 2022 16:06:07 GMT
Rumer has it that RB's overspend has come about from how they pay Adrian Newey. As a top employee I understand that they sit outside the cost cap but because Adrian is a contractor his salary has to sit inside the cost cap. I guess that's an understandable error if the rumer is true but also should mean that the cost cap needs review. I understand lot of the overspending was due to monies paid to Michael Masi during the safety car period in Abu Dhabi.
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Post by Stuntman on Oct 17, 2022 18:07:46 GMT
Rumer has it that RB's overspend has come about from how they pay Adrian Newey. As a top employee I understand that they sit outside the cost cap but because Adrian is a contractor his salary has to sit inside the cost cap. I guess that's an understandable error if the rumer is true but also should mean that the cost cap needs review. I understand lot of the overspending was due to monies paid to Michael Masi during the safety car period in Abu Dhabi. Hehe. But they have only been found guilty of a 'minor breach' rather than the entire championship-altering Masi episode. See my earlier post about justice. If there was any justice, Masi and Horner would both have some seriously bad karma.
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 17, 2022 19:09:02 GMT
Well Horner is married to Ginger Spice…….
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Post by Stuntman on Oct 18, 2022 11:02:24 GMT
Well Horner is married to Ginger Spice……. Scream if you wanna go faster - or on second thoughts, spend $5m...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2022 1:55:02 GMT
Well, if RB can get away with whatever they dropped on the situation, just declare a precedent and tell them to stuff the budget.
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 19, 2022 8:38:09 GMT
Well, if RB can get away with whatever they dropped on the situation, just declare a precedent and tell them to stuff the budget. That would be a good idea if the rules didn’t insist on each team making its own chassis. The key reason for Ducati dominance in MotoGP: they can sell the bike they developed and satellite teams can use the previous year’s bikes and remain competitive as long as the rules are stable. This has then caused pain for Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha as they don’t throw money at the bikes as a whole, preferring one super team with the best rider (generally Honda have always had the cream of the riders despite claiming the rider is just another part of an ensemble). Imagine if Merc were able to sell their car from the previous season to another team over their years of dominance and drip feed developments to those teams as the season went on? The F1 Championship circus would look very different and the costs would be far more sustainable but then the current ethos of F1 (the best a team can develop and turn up with) would be lost. There is an argument, however, that just like the US Constitution Second Amendment that ethos is not as realistic in the modern era as when it was first decided upon so a return to the days (50 s and 60s) when teams could run other cars and the regs allowed previous years’ cars to run is due for consideration.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2022 12:51:52 GMT
Well that too tbh. Whatever, they lack credibility and if they do nothing to those teams that screwed the system they deserve to be removed and replaced. Probably by a wet Haddock two weeks past cell by date. Yes, intentionaly stfo and stuff that will never happen.
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Post by Alex on Oct 29, 2022 9:04:48 GMT
So a verdict and penalty has been reached. Not sure if its a satisfactory result or not but its probably the best that could be made of a bad situation. A retrospective points deduction would have made the contentious end to the 2021 season turn into an even bigger row between themselves RB and Merc. But the risk of punishment based on a cap to future performance development could encourage a team to take the risk of a minor breach if it means getting a crucial edge in a tight title battle. Do you fall towards the slippery slope of teams gambling on sacrificing future season performance for a championship now? And if that happens how do the FIA roll back on previous title outcomes especially if more than one team have been found cheating?
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Post by Martin on Oct 29, 2022 10:26:44 GMT
I think it’s fairly lenient, at the very least the £7m fine should have come out of the cost cap.
Had to laugh at Horner saying 7% less wind tunnel time is worth up to 0.5 seconds, if that’s the case Williams should be able to step forward by 2.5 seconds a lap vs Red Bull next year!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2022 10:48:08 GMT
There has been talk about teams like RB etc leaving the sport if they get punished in the past and I feel the FiA have failed to set a proper example. A championship or two in the bag rather than a potential win in the future? You start stripping teams of championships and there will be a clear correlation of behaviour versus cost.
Otherwise it will be a case of "They have to catch us first, get on with it". At this rate, the rules will be changed to fixed control cars and you can change nothing. Not even worth turning up then.
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 29, 2022 10:53:02 GMT
Seen a few comments on social media pointing out that the FiA’s admission that there was human error in Abu Dhabi ‘21 allied with a RBR overspend means it’s clear to everyone inside and outside of the sport that Hamilton was the World Champion in 2021.
Hard to disagree and awarding the title based on this evidence is no different to Olympic medals and several TdFs being withdrawn years after the event.
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Post by Stuntman on Oct 29, 2022 14:31:33 GMT
Seen a few comments on social media pointing out that the FiA’s admission that there was human error in Abu Dhabi ‘21 allied with a RBR overspend means it’s clear to everyone inside and outside of the sport that Hamilton was the World Champion in 2021. Hard to disagree and awarding the title based on this evidence is no different to Olympic medals and several TdFs being withdrawn years after the event. I, for one, would be very happy to see this outcome. Justice. However, this is F1 and therefore it is vanishingly unlikely to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2022 15:24:53 GMT
Seen a few comments on social media pointing out that the FiA’s admission that there was human error in Abu Dhabi ‘21 allied with a RBR overspend means it’s clear to everyone inside and outside of the sport that Hamilton was the World Champion in 2021. Hard to disagree and awarding the title based on this evidence is no different to Olympic medals and several TdFs being withdrawn years after the event. I, for one, would be very happy to see this outcome. Justice. However, this is F1 and therefore it is vanishingly unlikely to happen. Not forgetting the animous towards McLaren and the 50 million $ fine while those with parts from other teams got away scott free, Cough Renault Cough. How the FiA have any credibility I do not know.
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