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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2022 23:44:54 GMT
I noticed that there is not enough mention of the individuals in the eu are behaving like champions, heroes and saints. I wish I could do something for each and every family that is helping others, not possible.#
If there is to be a humanitarian medal for being bloody decent human beings, these folk in Poland etc should have it. It was pointed out that there are no refugee camps in use.
Puts the Star Trek code to a big inspection.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2022 23:48:12 GMT
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Post by scouse on Mar 10, 2022 0:07:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2022 14:07:20 GMT
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Post by Alex on Mar 10, 2022 19:17:00 GMT
To cut a long story short, the EU and US don't have the resources to remain in control of our own destiny in the long term and come the second half of this century chances are we will be more or less under the rule of the Chinese, Russians and possibly even the Indians. Life as we know it will change dramatically this decade.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2022 19:51:04 GMT
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 10, 2022 20:00:49 GMT
To cut a long story short, the EU and US don't have the resources to remain in control of our own destiny in the long term and come the second half of this century chances are we will be more or less under the rule of the Chinese, Russians and possibly even the Indians. Life as we know it will change dramatically this decade. Don’t agree with that. Technological advance in the west outstrips everywhere else. Ok, so China is the labour market but that’s easier to change than most things. One could argue that the reason for this strike into Europe by Putin is because he knows his successors won’t have the fossil fuel stranglehold over the west within a generation so he can be remembered as the great visionary by striking now when he had that advantage. For all their faults the Chinese are remaining on the fence, neither condemning nor supporting Putin. They do a lot of trade around the world and anyone with a smidgen of history in their brain can see that trade has been China’s driver for a couple of millennia. China and India may both be super- populous but in terms of population control and organisation are poles apart. India is at best chaotic and the internal competition of its population amongst one another will prevent any meaningful digression outside its own borders for about a century. And therein lies the strength of the West. It allows free thought, opportunity and fosters advancement, both of technology and population. When that is threatened nations that are otherwise playfully taking the piss out of one another join together to protect the things that matter to them all, something Russia and China abhor as they consider themselves utterly sovereign. Russia has again resorted to the tactics of obliteration but are doing it against, again, a carefully selected foe. They out number most armies but this is not 1917 when Marshall Foch said the allied forces would defeat the Germans because they had more men in a war of attrition but as Ukrainian resistance is showing that only works against certain foes. Finally the ridiculous can never succeed in humanity as has long been proven. Fashion alone shows this as the most ludicrous elements of the catwalk never make the main stream, and I mean never. Why have I raised this? Today Lavrov said to a worldwide audience that “Russia is not planning an attack on any other nation, and Russia has not attacked Ukraine.” Ridiculous doesn’t really cover the official Russian position on this. ETA: one thing also. Never forget that for all our politically correctness and media face niceness, white European stock has long shown itself to be the nastiest element of humanity. The history of the 19th and 20th century showed that quite well, subjugating the majority of the planet and having no thought for destroying a generation of our own kind. The sheen of modernity wipes away easily and never forget which stock of human race actually dropped the two most devastating bombs of death and destruction.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2022 22:36:04 GMT
Those in charge of the Kremlin and what used to be the state rag Pravda (The Truth) are maintaining a state of ignorance is bliss mentality. Paranoia and the recent claims that Russia will take step to remove the ability of outside nations to control their financial health. This suggests another period of isolation and that leads to another potential for the Genie getting out of the bottle. We in the west etc will have to decide if we can maintain another bout of nuclear readiness and paroling while the supreme new Czar decides whether he wants to push the button today. New refugee's fleeing from oppression behind the Putin curtain.
As far as it goes, the PRC have made most of their so called advances on the back of much fraud, theft and pilfering of western companies. There is a whole website or two detailing how the new PRC carriers and destroyers etc are armed with amazing likeness's of other people's weapon systems. We shut down a lot of programs when they get expensive and the politicians here cannot make their minds up and the results somehow got to the PRC.
When you get extremist and isolationist regimes you get losers on all sides. And we might just get the Russian citizens who had news from outside understand we are not all out to get them. The first time someone tries to remove the problem the chances of that button being pushed go up exponentially. What level of diplomacy will sort THAT out?
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Post by Alex on Mar 11, 2022 8:07:59 GMT
My last post was a summary of that article and I think you're right to point out its flaws. I agree that Russia probably is aware that its stranglehold on Europe regarding energy supplies would have naturally dwindled over the next 10-20 years as we try to move away from fossil fuels and maybe this is his way of having one last go at reminding the world who we're messing with.
The Lebedev fella is starting to become the new Chemical Ali (remember him?) and is appearing as a bit of a laughing stock in some parts of the press. If he believes what he's saying he must be one of the most deluded politicians on the planet (and there's some stiff competition for that award!) But more worrying is that the Putin regime thinks this will somehow wash.
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Post by Tim on Mar 11, 2022 8:36:21 GMT
The thing about Chinese dominance may be wrong as well given that I believe they're a little concerned about how much manufacturing they've been losing to India. I take BB's point about Indian chaos but I presume manufacturing is set up by the companies that want to do it, i.e. that Western influence again.
Once India becomes too expensive they'll move somewhere else, as infinitum.
Actually that may work out ok for China because presumably the next cheap labour market is Africa where China have been extremely busy with their Belt & Road policy.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 11, 2022 10:24:56 GMT
So, during Angela Merkel's term as German Chancellor she emasculated the German military, refused to use any of Germany's soft power to influence Russia and China, or to display any sort of leadership of the EU commensurate with its largest economy and contributor, made her country largely reliant on Russian gas, dragged Poland and Ukraine back into Russia's influence by green lighting Nord Stream 2, thereby bypassing them and allowing Putin to turn the taps off to them, without affecting Germany...when will she be outed as a Russian asset? A sleeper agent, recruited in her early days in the Communist East and set on this path to power?
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 11, 2022 12:00:51 GMT
Interesting point on Mutti. One presumes she saw the good bits of Soviet life and assumed changes she herself had seen and been through were wider felt so took this softer line - or she is as Bob suggests a sleeper.
Without going down an EU wormhole, it remains apparent that there is only one sovereign nation in western Europe. Has its own atomic weapons, makes a surfeit of nuclear electricity, has an agricultural and manufacturing programme that benefits its internal labour markets and a decent reserve of internal raw materials. They’re also going to win the 6 nations.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 11, 2022 12:23:01 GMT
Interesting point on Mutti. One presumes she saw the good bits of Soviet life and assumed changes she herself had seen and been through were wider felt so took this softer line - or she is as Bob suggests a sleeper. Without going down an EU wormhole, it remains apparent that there is only one sovereign nation in western Europe. Has its own atomic weapons, makes a surfeit of nuclear electricity, has an agricultural and manufacturing programme that benefits its internal labour markets and a decent reserve of internal raw materials. They’re also going to win the 6 nations. That's not going down an EU wormhole, that's a recognition that perhaps finally the EU is moving towards what it was founded to be and needs to be. We are now outside that and our quandary (and goal) will be how to avoid effectively becoming a client state of one of the global powers, be that the EU, the US, China, India or whoever. Just back from four days in Dubai. Felt like being in a parallel universe.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2022 12:37:24 GMT
To be fair, the French deserve to win the six nations they have been in great form this year and bloody well done to them. The French government on the other hand had the German leadership well wrapped up and under their thumb for years. More a case of poor showing from the German leadership. I believe Fond of Lying had something to do with the German military being in such a poor state.
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 11, 2022 20:27:16 GMT
So, during Angela Merkel's term as German Chancellor she emasculated the German military, refused to use any of Germany's soft power to influence Russia and China, or to display any sort of leadership of the EU commensurate with its largest economy and contributor, made her country largely reliant on Russian gas, dragged Poland and Ukraine back into Russia's influence by green lighting Nord Stream 2, thereby bypassing them and allowing Putin to turn the taps off to them, without affecting Germany...when will she be outed as a Russian asset? A sleeper agent, recruited in her early days in the Communist East and set on this path to power? Merkel had a charmed life, and has got out of public life just when things are turning sour for Germany
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Post by PG on Mar 14, 2022 10:16:53 GMT
So, during Angela Merkel's term as German Chancellor she emasculated the German military, refused to use any of Germany's soft power to influence Russia and China, or to display any sort of leadership of the EU commensurate with its largest economy and contributor, made her country largely reliant on Russian gas, dragged Poland and Ukraine back into Russia's influence by green lighting Nord Stream 2, thereby bypassing them and allowing Putin to turn the taps off to them, without affecting Germany...when will she be outed as a Russian asset? A sleeper agent, recruited in her early days in the Communist East and set on this path to power? Sleeper or not, I never understood many in the West's infatuation with the "greatness" of Merkel. She did make Germany the most mercantalist of countries. What China was to cheap labour, Germany became for machine tools, cars and engineering. Blind eyes could be turned to anything (including Russian history and Chinese human-rights abuses) if it helped Germany sell stuff. And as Germany calls the shots in the EU, that was where the whole EU followed with regard to Russia and China policies.
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Post by alf on Mar 16, 2022 15:47:20 GMT
To cut a long story short, the EU and US don't have the resources to remain in control of our own destiny in the long term and come the second half of this century chances are we will be more or less under the rule of the Chinese, Russians and possibly even the Indians. Life as we know it will change dramatically this decade. I don't agree with this either. We need to remember in the West that democracy is not the default, it is one model we are used to, much (most?) of the world follows another path, whatever consensus in those places might be if they had a real vote. Democracy - with universal voting - is relatively recent (one century or so) even here and at times since then - like WW2 - it was at threat. But the free world grows faster, and innovates quicker, and while Russia's economy relies on soon to be outmoded hydrocarbon sales, China's is deeply intertwined with our modern economies. Not to say I don't fear them, but the current situation has probably done Taiwan a lot of good, not bad. I'm coming down from my idealism that we have to prevent Putin gaining anything from this - but only because of his nuclear weapons. Without them I think we should have got involved and it would be a massive defeat to Russia if we did - on whatever scale/theatre they chose to fight - because the Russian military is far more behind NATO than we thought. And Russia spends such a % of its income already on defence, they will struggle to sort out the deficiencies they are now aware of. Meanwhile Germany has been totally roused from its slumber and will become a huge force again - good. This is a good article on how this may go now: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60756993Ukraine joining NATO will probably be ruled out for now (until Putin is dead/gone anyway), and I expect Russia will get to keep Crimea and Luhansk/Donbas (all of the latter, not just the bits the Russians already had. On EU membership I would think would it would be harder to justify killing thousands of civilians to prevent a neighbour from joining a free trade block than something like NATO, maybe there will be something woolier. Basically, the Ukranians need to play Russia at their own game here - the Russians signed an accord saying they would not invade Ukraine after the Crimea invasion. They can do the same about NATO now and then, when the west has massively increased arms spending, Russia has been crippled by sanctions, and Putin has effed off, they can change their mind in 10 or 20 years time. That's how I see this going now. To anyone with half a brain this us an epic fail on Putin's part, and has managed to do everything he would not have wanted in galvanising NATO and increasing defence budgets across all NATO countries, as well as seeing that spent on "traditional" hardware like tanks and aircraft that are useful in a large conventional war. The threat remains that he's a total lunatic, in which case we may indeed still be in the early days of WW3.
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Post by garry on Mar 16, 2022 18:29:17 GMT
To cut a long story short, the EU and US don't have the resources to remain in control of our own destiny in the long term and come the second half of this century chances are we will be more or less under the rule of the Chinese, Russians and possibly even the Indians. Life as we know it will change dramatically this decade. I don't agree with this either. We need to remember in the West that democracy is not the default, it is one model we are used to, much (most?) of the world follows another path, whatever consensus in those places might be if they had a real vote. Democracy - with universal voting - is relatively recent (one century or so) even here and at times since then - like WW2 - it was at threat. But the free world grows faster, and innovates quicker, and while Russia's economy relies on soon to be outmoded hydrocarbon sales, China's is deeply intertwined with our modern economies. Not to say I don't fear them, but the current situation has probably done Taiwan a lot of good, not bad. I'm coming down from my idealism that we have to prevent Putin gaining anything from this - but only because of his nuclear weapons. Without them I think we should have got involved and it would be a massive defeat to Russia if we did - on whatever scale/theatre they chose to fight - because the Russian military is far more behind NATO than we thought. And Russia spends such a % of its income already on defence, they will struggle to sort out the deficiencies they are now aware of. Meanwhile Germany has been totally roused from its slumber and will become a huge force again - good. This is a good article on how this may go now: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60756993Ukraine joining NATO will probably be ruled out for now (until Putin is dead/gone anyway), and I expect Russia will get to keep Crimea and Luhansk/Donbas (all of the latter, not just the bits the Russians already had. On EU membership I would think would it would be harder to justify killing thousands of civilians to prevent a neighbour from joining a free trade block than something like NATO, maybe there will be something woolier. Basically, the Ukranians need to play Russia at their own game here - the Russians signed an accord saying they would not invade Ukraine after the Crimea invasion. They can do the same about NATO now and then, when the west has massively increased arms spending, Russia has been crippled by sanctions, and Putin has effed off, they can change their mind in 10 or 20 years time. That's how I see this going now. To anyone with half a brain this us an epic fail on Putin's part, and has managed to do everything he would not have wanted in galvanising NATO and increasing defence budgets across all NATO countries, as well as seeing that spent on "traditional" hardware like tanks and aircraft that are useful in a large conventional war. The threat remains that he's a total lunatic, in which case we may indeed still be in the early days of WW3. Hang on, a few days ago you said you’d kill or die fighting for an individuals right to self determination and had a dig at me for daring to suggest that Ukraine should not join NATO and should give Russia secure access to the Black Sea port it uses. Does that make you a Putin supporting commie too?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2022 18:49:43 GMT
I think the issue is pushing a paranoid Marvin too far and frankly the eu et al have done just that. The man is certifiable green bloody tarmac and the sooner his 'friends' shove him off this mortal coil the better for everyone.
Russians are as decent a bunch as you will find but this situation has the propensity to kill more than a few of those and he is, as his friends are. a little too needy of a depot injection and not bloody penicillin. The sheath technique for treating gonorrhea might be useful tho'.
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 16, 2022 20:36:50 GMT
Cynically, perhaps Russia has been falsely playing along over the past 30 years to build up Western World trust that they wanted to "join in" our type of economy, then once we are dependent on them for oil and gas, once they have "invested" so much in the western economy, they show their true colours by declaring war on a former USSR territory largely funded by western-world purchases of their energy etc.
The current events have put civilisation back by 20 or 30 years, nobody will trust them now and the damage done to Ukraine will take many decades to sort out. We will all suffer in one way or another for a long, long time - and that includes ordinary Russian citizens too. It's quite clear that the Iron Curtain will be put back in place; they (or at least Putin) still want revenge/reversal regarding the fall of the Berlin Wall, Poland becoming a democracy, East Germany uniting etc etc. It's tempting to say that the best thing now would be for Putin to drop The Bomb and end the world, putting us all out of our misery; the war will only broaden the gap between the rich and poor
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2022 23:57:45 GMT
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Post by ChrisM on Mar 17, 2022 7:58:22 GMT
I wouldn't believe a word that Putin speaks
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Post by alf on Mar 17, 2022 10:02:25 GMT
"Hang on, a few days ago you said you’d kill or die fighting for an individuals right to self determination and had a dig at me for daring to suggest that Ukraine should not join NATO and should give Russia secure access to the Black Sea port it uses. Does that make you a Putin supporting commie too? " I guess its the difference between some sort of reality to end this, and the view of some people (and I'm not saying you were one of them, I have heard many) who said things like "it's our fault for bringing them over to our side." When in fact its people democratically wanting to be in the EU, to give themselves a chance, that is the issue here - and then wanting to be in NATO as they know the Russians won't like it. You don't get to decide - through force - what people in other countries "want" to do, despite what Putin may think. The world would be a much better place if swathes of Africa, Asia, and the middle east were true democracies. Democratic leaders are fallible - look at ours - but they are significantly restricted in their freedom of movement by their need to carry a vote. We shouldn't give in to dictators suggesting whole parts of the world - whatever the people living there think - are their playground. Crimea does genuinely have a majority wanting to be Russian - unlike the majority of the rest of Ukraine. Maybe Putin genuinely thought more Ukrainians wanted to be Russian. But his nonsense about fascist leaders and so on is total bollox - its just a shame so many people even in the west (I cite the more crazy conspiracy crew amongst my friends) seem to believe Russian misinformation... None of it was a dig at you, I'm entirely comfortable with people with different views to mine as long as they can back them up...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2022 10:57:37 GMT
The reason for linking the Guardian articles is that misinformation is rife and the Putin regime lies like folk change our socks. The beeb interviewed some everyday Russians in Russia and the view is that putin is a hero for dealing with the traitorous Ukrainians. How they can be a sovereign state and traitors to Russia is just another variation of Putin right and the rest are parent less children.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2022 14:03:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2022 16:24:49 GMT
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 25, 2022 9:27:47 GMT
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Post by johnc on Mar 25, 2022 13:28:56 GMT
We have two families close to us who are taking in Ukranian refugees.
I don't know if you have noticed but Putin keeps singling out the UK and Boris as being the biggest critics of Russia and those helping the "enemy" most. I hope our powers that be are taking notice of this because it seems to be the Russian way that they create a rhetoric over a period of time to somehow justify action they are going to take!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2022 14:00:12 GMT
If his country lets him, how long will the privileged let him get away with it?
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