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Post by Alex on Mar 13, 2021 19:30:22 GMT
But I wasnt talking about attack in general but sexual assault. Which is in most cases perpetrated by men against women. That's the point I was trying to use. Absolutely if I heard someone has been stabbed the mental image I would probably see is of a young man.
Mark it's not that they choose to use it as a curfew it's that they are told to. They are told to be careful in ways men are not. They impose it upon themselves because they've been bought up to do so through constant warnings against the possible dangers of men. And absolutely we all know to be careful walking down a dark alley at gone midnight but the point is that men dont have it constantly drummed into them the way women do.
Part of the reason I agree with their cause is because I know I'm not a predatory male out to assault a women but if I'm following a women in the street she will automatically be making checks to ensure I'm not. Depending on the woman she may even cross the street or take a different route just to feel more comfortable. Of course they'll probably look at me and quite rightly take the view that if I try anything they'll deck me but the point is why should they have to make that assessment? Us men never feel the need to make such an assessment if we're followed by a woman.
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Post by LandieMark on Mar 13, 2021 19:36:26 GMT
And like I said I don't agree with your second paragraph. You can rearrange what your saying into many different ways, but you are not going to get me to agree with it. They need to take it up with the people who allegedly drummed it into them, not all men in general.
If a woman doesn't feel safe because there is a man behind them, that is their issue and not the man's.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 13, 2021 19:48:09 GMT
80-90% of sexual assaults on women are by men they know- husbands/boyfriends. The chances of sexual assault when walking home is infinitesimally small, somewhere in the region of 0.05%. We have to ask ourselves what is the agenda in creating this fear in our female population?
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Post by LandieMark on Mar 13, 2021 19:52:14 GMT
As an amusing side note in an otherwise depressing topic, a female friend of mine got a Facebook warning for hate speech for stating "all men are cockwombles" in response to something.
The world is going mad and I'm glad I live out of the way from a lot of it.
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Post by LandieMark on Mar 13, 2021 19:55:17 GMT
ONS Info:
There were 671 victims of homicide in the year ending March 2019, 33 fewer (5%) than the previous year, the first fall since the year ending March 2015.
Although there was a fall in the number of victims, this was partly due to the inclusion of several homicide incidents with multiple victims in the previous year; the number of separate homicide incidents increased from 644 to 662 (up 3%).
The fall in homicide was driven by a fall in male victims, decreasing from 484 to 429 (down 11%).
Homicides of young victims, aged 16 to 24 years, fell after a large peak the previous year, down from 148 to 113 (down 24%).
The number of female victims increased from 220 to 241 (up 10%); the second consecutive annual increase and the highest number since the year ending March 2006.
Female victims (aged 16 years and over) were more likely to be killed by a partner / ex-partner (38%, 80 homicides), while male victims were more likely to be killed by a friend or acquittance (27%, 105 homicides).
The most common method of killing continued to be by a sharp instrument, with 259 homicides by this method, a fall of 23 offences (down 8%) compared with the previous year.
The homicide rate was 11 per million population, with the rate for males (15 per million population) around double that for females (8 per million population).
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Post by PetrolEd on Mar 14, 2021 15:43:19 GMT
Who’d be a copper. After telling people not to turn up for the vigil, the met are in the shit for the way they handled it. If we’re under lockdown we’re under lockdown and the cause however worthy shouldn’t make a difference. If a rave was being held in Clapham Common I’d expect the police to deal with it. Now the mayors called their handling of it completely unacceptable and wants Cressida dicks resignation. I don’t like the head of the met but think Kahn should be backing his police force.
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 14, 2021 16:30:25 GMT
Nope: there's degrees of interaction with the police force and this was way beyond 360o. Ravers are one group, many of whom expect and accept being told to knock their antics on the head but you now have a group of largely law abiding people being led down the path of disliking the police for heavy handedness for no reason. These are the people who's general police interaction is being told their stolen possessions will never be seen again and issued a crime number by text - like you said: who'd be a copper in these circumstances?
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 14, 2021 16:31:39 GMT
It's terrible what happened but I've seen suggestions such as that there should be a 6pm curfew for men. Er, what? I find that deeply offensive and I'm sure it will be counter-productive. I found the 6pm curfew for men idea outrageous too. But you see the movement is not a campaign to have us guys actually curfewed. It is to raise the point that women already have a 6pm curfew put upon them. They're told not to go out alone after dark. Men are not. They're recommended to carry rape alarms. Men are not. They're told to ensure that someone knows where they are at night. Men are not. They're told not to get into a cab alone. Men are not. If a woman walking down the street senses one of us men following her she feels uncomfortable even though rationally you have no intention of harming her. She feels uncomfortable because shes been bought up to be so. Men are not. Just this week when they were hunting for Sarah police went around the area telling women to be careful if they went out at night. If you're moaning about being told men should have a 6pm curfew, you're missing the point. It's not about anyone being officially curfewed. Tim that was not directed at you personally. I discussed this with my bestie last night and we both agreed that even when we were young, played sport every day and are both over 6' tall (he's 6'6" and built like a prop forward) if we were on the nightbus home alone it was FUCKING TERRIFYING. When we got off the bus and had the short walk home WE RAN LIKE FUCK! Yes it's different for women but only by degrees of separation not a gulf.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2021 17:11:19 GMT
TBH, you rarely get a crime number, just told to fuck off and talk to your insurance company.
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Post by PetrolEd on Mar 14, 2021 17:44:20 GMT
Nope: there's degrees of interaction with the police force and this was way beyond 360 o. Ravers are one group, many of whom expect and accept being told to knock their antics on the head but you now have a group of largely law abiding people being led down the path of disliking the police for heavy handedness for no reason. These are the people who's general police interaction is being told their stolen possessions will never be seen again and issued a crime number by text - like you said: who'd be a copper in these circumstances? So that’s the white privilege I keep hearing about. I should add I haven’t seen anything of the news so shouldn’t really comment but the BBC notification came on my phone with headlines of police brutality and heavy handed coppers, Cressida Dick should resign and just thought FFS. Are we reporting from Myanmar or Clapham. Im assuming it’s a Karen’s day out that’s gone wrong.
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Post by PG on Mar 14, 2021 18:36:40 GMT
Re the way the police handled the demo / vigil last night, I think that what people expect is fairness before the law. If a demo of BLM; Extinction; anti this or that etc; can go ahead the and police pretty much do nothing (even in the face of damage / vandalism), then when they are seen to wade in and start arresting a load of women, why the heck act all surprised that people are up in arms?
I don't mind the police enforcing the law. As long as they do it evenhandedly.
I feel for front line officers who have to act on orders, when those orders are so clearly way out of kilter with what people expect in so many situations.
And I concur the night bus / late travel etc. In London in the early 1980's, travelling south of Waterloo on the Northern line at night on your own was pretty much a death sentence.
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 14, 2021 18:47:30 GMT
Nope: there's degrees of interaction with the police force and this was way beyond 360 o. Ravers are one group, many of whom expect and accept being told to knock their antics on the head but you now have a group of largely law abiding people being led down the path of disliking the police for heavy handedness for no reason. These are the people who's general police interaction is being told their stolen possessions will never be seen again and issued a crime number by text - like you said: who'd be a copper in these circumstances? So that’s the white privilege I keep hearing about. I think you'll find most rave attendees are white and many are middle classed off-spring. As to PG's comment, if all/the majority of the attendees last night were not white then the Met would not have dared set a hand on them [in front of the cameras.]
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Post by PetrolEd on Mar 14, 2021 19:22:26 GMT
So that’s the white privilege I keep hearing about. I think you'll find most rave attendees are white and many are middle classed off-spring. As to PG's comment, if all/the majority of the attendees last night were not white then the Met would not have dared set a hand on them [in front of the cameras.] I thought I saw you off your tits on the bits last week in that warehouse in Bristol. I should have said hello. 🤣
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Post by Tim on Mar 15, 2021 9:25:45 GMT
I think the Met made a complete hash of that but I also think there's no way whatever action they took would've been right anyway so they were fucked. I wonder why there were a load of men at the vigil though, my Mum reckoned they were presumably husbands/partners showing support but then presumably the guy who committed the crime has/had relationships so it doesn't help. My mum also pointed out that this is nothing new, she remembers getting a late train up to London 60 years ago and the guard telling her to sit in his van because there had been trouble the night before (although maybe he was a perv!).
Mrs Tim nearly threw something at the TV when we were watching the news yesterday morning. They had some female comedian on, can't remember her name and never seen her before. Her opinion was that "Women need to grieve". That's utterly disgusting. A bunch of women who didn't know the victim and had no real connection to her DO NOT need to grieve, instead they could simply use it as an event to protest their situation.
Additionally, where were all these women a couple of years ago when the 2 birds from Kirkcaldy had starved a toddler to death, I don't remember vigils being held outside the court to protest or grieve for that small kid. Of course the kid was from an underprivileged background so maybe that means it doesn't matter as much? I think it was also male.......
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 15, 2021 10:33:01 GMT
The Met police made a complete mess of this and you have to wonder why they thought their response to this was proportional and reasonable. Cressida Dick must resign.
The protesters/vigil attendees were wrong to be there but once they had gathered the police had the choice of a show of force or to come to an accommodation, encourage the people there to maintain social distancing, and to make the gathering as brief as possible. I appreciate that in policing you're often damned if you do and damned if you don't but it does appear that nationally the police service has suffered a loss of common sense.
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Post by Boxer6 on Mar 15, 2021 11:06:23 GMT
The Met police made a complete mess of this and you have to wonder why they thought their response to this was proportional and reasonable. Cressida Dick must resign. The protesters/vigil attendees were wrong to be there but once they had gathered the police had the choice of a show of force or to come to an accommodation, encourage the people there to maintain social distancing, and to make the gathering as brief as possible. I appreciate that in policing you're often damned if you do and damned if you don't but it does appear that nationally the police service has suffered a loss of common sense. Many posters I've seen on my timelines commenting on the difference between Rangers fans "buddying up" to officers the other week in their hundreds, vs. the Met's option of apparent harassment and arrests of reportedly peaceful vigil keepers/protestors. Many of those were Rangers fans of course (!), missing the point completely in respect of the reasons people were there, different forces involved etc. Ho hum.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 15, 2021 11:37:51 GMT
The Met police made a complete mess of this and you have to wonder why they thought their response to this was proportional and reasonable. Cressida Dick must resign. The protesters/vigil attendees were wrong to be there but once they had gathered the police had the choice of a show of force or to come to an accommodation, encourage the people there to maintain social distancing, and to make the gathering as brief as possible. I appreciate that in policing you're often damned if you do and damned if you don't but it does appear that nationally the police service has suffered a loss of common sense. Many posters I've seen on my timelines commenting on the difference between Rangers fans "buddying up" to officers the other week in their hundreds, vs. the Met's option of apparent harassment and arrests of reportedly peaceful vigil keepers/protestors. Many of those were Rangers fans of course (!), missing the point completely in respect of the reasons people were there, different forces involved etc. Ho hum. I do think there were a number of people at the vigil to try and hijack it and create a disturbance and the police walked right into their trap by providing them with the ammunition.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2021 11:46:50 GMT
It seems there are quite a few of those in just about every protest, is this the new face of the City club?
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Post by Blarno on Mar 15, 2021 12:32:21 GMT
I don't know how to react to the knee jerk reaction of a curfew. On the one hand, I can kind of see the point, but on the flip side it demonises those of us who are the good guys. I've never once felt the need or desire to scare or attack a member of the opposite sex. I've always actively made sure my female friends get home safely after a night out, even if it meant putting myself in potential danger.
It's a shit state of affairs when the mere presence of a man can make a woman feel uncomfortable.
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Post by garry on Mar 15, 2021 12:50:01 GMT
I don't know how to react to the knee jerk reaction of a curfew. On the one hand, I can kind of see the point, but on the flip side it demonises those of us who are the good guys. I've never once felt the need or desire to scare or attack a member of the opposite sex. I've always actively made sure my female friends get home safely after a night out, even if it meant putting myself in potential danger. It's a shit state of affairs when the mere presence of a man can make a woman feel uncomfortable. I'd imagine a curfew on men could have the opposite of the desired effect by creating ideal conditions for crime. If a bad guys modus operandi was to seek out women when no one else is there then removing 50% of the population from the street will create more chance of that happening.
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 15, 2021 13:18:32 GMT
It's a shit state of affairs when the mere presence of a man can make a woman feel uncomfortable. I recall an interview with Bob Geldof where he pointed out the when he was travelling on the underground with his then young daughters he'd get odd looks as a scruffy bloke out with two young girls. His reaction was "what, am I some kind of danger automatically because I've got this thing between my legs?"
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Post by Alex on Mar 15, 2021 14:46:33 GMT
I don't know how to react to the knee jerk reaction of a curfew. On the one hand, I can kind of see the point, but on the flip side it demonises those of us who are the good guys. I've never once felt the need or desire to scare or attack a member of the opposite sex. I've always actively made sure my female friends get home safely after a night out, even if it meant putting myself in potential danger. It's a shit state of affairs when the mere presence of a man can make a woman feel uncomfortable. I'd imagine a curfew on men could have the opposite of the desired effect by creating ideal conditions for crime. If a bad guys modus operandi was to seek out women when no one else is there then removing 50% of the population from the street will create more chance of that happening. As I tried to explain before, no one is calling for a curfew on men. It's a metaphor being used to point out that women already have a self imposed curfew based on all the warnings they get instilled in them about the dangers of being alone in the presence of men late at night. If you genuinely think it's a call to have us men curfewed you've missed the point of what they're setting out to campaign for. And the point you make about making sure your female friends get home safely kind of backs up their argument that you shouldnt have to think about it, it should be a given that a women should be able to make her own way home safely at night. Do you focus as much attention on your male friends getting home safely? I generally don't. Whenever I've been out with friends the women always have suitable arrangements for getting home, usually as a group, us guys don't.
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Post by garry on Mar 15, 2021 14:57:34 GMT
I'd imagine a curfew on men could have the opposite of the desired effect by creating ideal conditions for crime. If a bad guys modus operandi was to seek out women when no one else is there then removing 50% of the population from the street will create more chance of that happening. As I tried to explain before, no one is calling for a curfew on men. It's a metaphor being used to point out that women already have a self imposed curfew based on all the warnings they get instilled in them about the dangers of being alone in the presence of men late at night. If you genuinely think it's a call to have us men curfewed you've missed the point of what they're setting out to campaign for. And the point you make about making sure your female friends get home safely kind of backs up their argument that you shouldnt have to think about it, it should be a given that a women should be able to make her own way home safely at night. Do you focus as much attention on your male friends getting home safely? I generally don't. Whenever I've been out with friends the women always have suitable arrangements for getting home, usually as a group, us guys don't. I don’t. But that’s more a cultural thing than a risk thing. Men are at higher risk of attack than women but most men are conditioned to protect those close to them by putting themselves at increased risk.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 15, 2021 15:35:39 GMT
I'd imagine a curfew on men could have the opposite of the desired effect by creating ideal conditions for crime. If a bad guys modus operandi was to seek out women when no one else is there then removing 50% of the population from the street will create more chance of that happening. As I tried to explain before, no one is calling for a curfew on men. It's a metaphor being used to point out that women already have a self imposed curfew based on all the warnings they get instilled in them about the dangers of being alone in the presence of men late at night. If you genuinely think it's a call to have us men curfewed you've missed the point of what they're setting out to campaign for. And the point you make about making sure your female friends get home safely kind of backs up their argument that you shouldnt have to think about it, it should be a given that a women should be able to make her own way home safely at night. Do you focus as much attention on your male friends getting home safely? I generally don't. Whenever I've been out with friends the women always have suitable arrangements for getting home, usually as a group, us guys don't. i wonder when someone will have the balls to stand up and call out the curfews placed on some women by their culture, race and religion? Standing in Parliament, the Senedd, the Scottish Parliament and calling for a curfew on men and then saying that they were only saying it as a way of highlighting the issue, to raise awareness, what does that achieve? It certainly won't make the sick fuckers who carry out these attacks think twice but it is good virtue signalling. Tell me what needs to change so that a woman will feel safe walking home from a bar at night? More police? Brighter streetlights? Maybe less scaremongering? They say men need to change, but we don't need to change, we're not part of the problem. Tell me how you are going to target that small minority of bullies of both sexes who think it's OK to prey on those they perceive to be weaker. Maybe if we treated women as equals and didn't instill fear into them at an early age, make them believe they are weak and vulnerable, instilled in them a self confidence to call out behaviour they find unacceptable from an early age, we'd have more women walking home and it won't be seen as the strange action of someone who is sure to be attacked.
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Post by LandieMark on Mar 15, 2021 16:49:09 GMT
I'd imagine a curfew on men could have the opposite of the desired effect by creating ideal conditions for crime. If a bad guys modus operandi was to seek out women when no one else is there then removing 50% of the population from the street will create more chance of that happening. As I tried to explain before, no one is calling for a curfew on men. It's a metaphor being used to point out that some women already have a self imposed curfew based on all the warnings they get instilled in them about the dangers of being alone in the presence of men late at night. If you genuinely think it's a call to have us men curfewed you've missed the point of what they're setting out to campaign for. And the point you make about making sure your female friends get home safely kind of backs up their argument that you shouldnt have to think about it, it should be a given that a women should be able to make her own way home safely at night. Do you focus as much attention on your male friends getting home safely? I generally don't. Whenever I've been out with friends the women always have suitable arrangements for getting home, usually as a group, us guys don't. That bit in bold would be a more accurate statement which is why I don't agree with with it. It's hardly the fault of all the men in the UK if some women feel that way.
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Post by scouse on Mar 16, 2021 3:30:55 GMT
Let’s be honest, the reasons this particular crime s making such a splash is because the victim was a white, middle class female, the alleged perpetrator was a police officer and it took place during COVID restrictions when news in general (especially this type) is a bit slower than normal. Change any one of three things and it becomes just’ another murder. Then you add in the Met high command’s usual incompetence, a bunch of rentamob activists (just what does attempting to attack Churchill’s statue have to do with the poor woman’s death?) and you have the current shitshow. We bring our boys up to defend themselves knowing that ther men can be bastards and to give them (literally) a fighting chance - an average 13 stone man is going to have a chance against another man, your average 11stone woman won’t, which is why we bring our daughters up to be more careful.
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Post by PG on Mar 18, 2021 13:46:15 GMT
It would appear my old school is "a hotbed of sexual violence". www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/17/20000-a-year-private-school-accused-hotbed-sexual-violence/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhrA £20,000-a-year private school has been accused of being a “hotbed of sexual violence” in an open letter to its headmaster.The letter to King's College School in Wimbledon, south-west London, has accused male pupils of violent sexual assaults on women who were unconscious, telling rape jokes, threatening rape, and circulating nude photos of girls without their knowledge in group chats.The 11-page document addressed to headmaster Andrew Hall was written by Ava Vakil, a former pupil of Wimbledon High School, who invited girls to share their experience of “sexual violence or harassment” from students at King's.Ms Vakil has called on Mr Hall to “publicly admit the extent of this problem” and improve safeguarding, as she goes on to accuse teachers of “ignoring the problem” of misogyny.Instances of racial and homophobic abuse, including the use of the n-word, anti-Semitism, “slurs and much more” were also cited in the letter.“It is no secret amongst local schools that King's has a problem. King's has a cultural problem of misogyny and bigotry which leads to (and has led to) sexual harassment and sexual violence,” Ms Vakil wrote.She added that the school “cannot attempt to unravel its misogyny without first properly acknowledging it”.Part of the letter reads: “The label of a 'King's boy' is one which has come to mean a privileged, usually white, usually wealthy boy who engages in derogatory behaviour towards women.“I speak in these crude categories because they are relevant. I want to be clear: not every student of King's, nor every male-identifying student of King's is part of this problem, but that does not mean the problem does not exist.“Misogyny and sexual violence is clearly a worldwide issue, but I would like to explain why I feel as though your school needs to tackle it as a particularly internal one as well."Kings is a hotbed of sexual violence."I will say two things. Firstly, fuck me, the fees have gone up. My parents would have had to sell a kidney to pay that much. Secondly, I'm not sure much has changed since my day (1970's). We didn't have the internet of course and there were no girls in the 6th form, but the hormonal output of a few hundred adolescent boys cold still be felt from several miles away. Amongst some pupils this led to serious bullying issues and some pretty terrible (booze and girl related) tales from parties. In my defence, let me say that as an 8 stone weakling, I was on the receiving end of the former and never got invited to the latter! Whilst I find the behaviour shocking, I'm probably more shocked that the school are acting all shocked about this. Which rock have they been living under for the past 50 years FFS?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2021 13:49:47 GMT
Any rock they can would seem to be about right. Not the first and unlikely to be the last either, no organisation like this is ever going to cop for anything.
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Post by Tim on Mar 18, 2021 18:13:25 GMT
Did anyone think to ask any of the boys the same question?
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Post by Big Blue on Mar 18, 2021 18:57:38 GMT
I went to a mixed all years school and I’m only a couple of years behind you PG (and was only about 5 miles up the road) and it was no different. The presence of girls had no bearing on the matter other than a couple that left at 14 / 15 to give birth. My sister went to an all girls school where she rose to games captain and I’m not sure if anyone thinks they all leave as twee, sweet little ladies but if you do you’re well fucking wrong!
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