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Post by racingteatray on Jan 13, 2021 20:24:41 GMT
Well indeed. Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader in the Senate, has apparently "let it be known" that he supports impeaching Trump. Presumably precisely because a ban on him from holding public office would be very handy.
But the Republicans are walking a very, very fine line here. McConnell is the wiliest of wily old birds but nobody is infallible. They could get it all horribly wrong.
That's not a reason not to do it in my view though.
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Post by michael on Jan 13, 2021 21:11:49 GMT
I think it’s a dangerous game to play that could prove hugely divisive. The problem with the democrats is they’re very much into identity politics so the divisions are what they’re all about, but the problem is it’ll disenfranchise an enormous number of Americans to the point another Trump type of candidate may prove inevitable. It would be disastrous for us all if the US slipped any further from where it is but it’s heading that way.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 13, 2021 22:23:24 GMT
Yes, but it would have set an appalling precedent to allow it to have gone unpunished.
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Post by johnc on Jan 14, 2021 7:14:26 GMT
There is still a very large part of educated, intelligent and productive USA who fully appreciate the danger of a populist, insular America and they will hopefully vote with the Black and ethnic minorities to keep that kind of destructive character out of the White House. The whole of US politics also needs to waken up to the fact that only having candidates who are over 70 yrs old is not the most sensible option.
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 14, 2021 9:32:53 GMT
American politics needs to work out that funding is not the sole solution to selecting candidates. Agreed that in Europe we have a large number of wealthy candidates and leaders but the leader of the UK opposition grew up in a three bed semi, the leader of Germany grew up in the DDR and met her husband whilst they lived in a squat. American politics makes the royal households their founding fathers sought to escape look like democratic paragons!
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Post by PetrolEd on Jan 14, 2021 9:38:46 GMT
I just look at the whole shit show and the conclusion that comes to mind is the American political system is a complete disaster. Much like Brexit, these issues will rumble on and on. Trump got near 50% of the vote therefore you can't just ignore that number of people. The old cutting your nose of to spite your face is well in play. Alienating Trump supporters by impeaching the President again just drives more hate and division. America massively needs everyone to come together and this isn't the way. As the political elite further separate themselves further from whoever a Trump supporter is more hate grows.
Bidens got a lot to do but have zero confidence he's the one to bring everyone together. I dread to think what horrors the US citizens will have to vote for in 4 years time.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 14, 2021 9:58:59 GMT
Well it's the problem of having a two party system, as we essentially do here - it fosters deep tribalism of the sort that goes on defending the utterly indefensible just because it wears the same colour rosette.
Now, you can go too far the other way too. For example in Italy and Israel where small splinter parties or special interest groups can wield undue influence over coalitions disproportionate to their importance.
But a change is needed. Anyone arguing against proportional representation here needs to have a long look in the mirror about why they support first past the post (short and honest answer: because it favours their chosen tribe).
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 14, 2021 10:19:46 GMT
Well it's the problem of having a two party system, as we essentially do here - it fosters deep tribalism of the sort that goes on defending the utterly indefensible just because it wears the same colour rosette. Now, you can go too far the other way too. For example in Italy and Israel where small splinter parties or special interest groups can wield undue influence over coalitions disproportionate to their importance. But a change is needed. Anyone arguing against proportional representation here needs to have a long look in the mirror about why they support first past the post (short and honest answer: because it favours their chosen tribe). When I was a student I was very much in favour of PR but then realised it wasn't the way to go for the very reasons you refer to. Too much accommodating of the often the unpleasant views of minority parties to put together coalitions. If you look at everyone's darling, Jacinda Ardern of New Zealand, she was forced into a coalition with the far right New Zealand First Party. Not a party I'd want with influence over government policy. Imagine if we had PR here and the Green Party started to wield real power in a minority government - you can kiss goodbye to IC engines and the ability to drive freely about the UK. More to the point; imagine the UK with a PR and a Nigel Farage led party calling shots? Or go back to the 70s and the National Front?
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 14, 2021 10:49:56 GMT
Hmm. PR does allow the less credible to have credibility where it’s not due. What’s required is credibility across more than two parties which is attempted in the UK but clearly fails. There are tribalisms and as humans there always will be. There are also influences on all our lives that drive that tribalism one way or the other, so a kid from a working family may grow up either a rabid capitalist because they liked what that offered them or they became a flag waving socialist because they wanted a share of the overall national wealth. Or some median point between the two.
Politics should be the balancing point between anarchy and dictatorship with a swing either way as society needs. The USA is vast and its stste structure means it is constantly between the two whereas the UK and Germany appear to have had longer balanced periods in the recent past. France of course is in constant anarchy but the national psyche likes this in the same way Central European states, Arab states and a lot of far eastern states are more comfortable with more dictatorship on a national basis.
The vast majority of us are happy with sitting wherever we are on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs regardless of politics.
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Post by PG on Jan 14, 2021 13:06:52 GMT
The vast majority of us are happy with sitting wherever we are on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs regardless of politics. Well, that's probably true until politics knocks us off our comfort spot. If enough people lower down the comfort scale vote to reduce your circumstances to theirs, is that democracy or not? Re PR, I think the idea of electing multiple MP's from super-constituencies has more appeal than PR (as was used in Euro elections). It means that the link between MP's and locality is not broken and parties need to get a sensible percentage of votes to get anybody elected.
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Post by Tim on Jan 14, 2021 13:08:20 GMT
I just look at the whole shit show and the conclusion that comes to mind is the American political system is a complete disaster. Much like Brexit, these issues will rumble on and on. Trump got near 50% of the vote therefore you can't just ignore that number of people. The old cutting your nose of to spite your face is well in play. Alienating Trump supporters by impeaching the President again just drives more hate and division. America massively needs everyone to come together and this isn't the way. As the political elite further separate themselves further from whoever a Trump supporter is more hate grows. Bidens got a lot to do but have zero confidence he's the one to bring everyone together. I dread to think what horrors the US citizens will have to vote for in 4 years time. I think you're making the mistake of assuming that everyone who voted Republican is a Trump supporter. I'm sure that, as in the UK and no doubt everywhere else, many simply voted for the guy whose name was against their favoured party rather than the individual.
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Post by johnc on Jan 14, 2021 13:09:05 GMT
The vast majority of us are happy with sitting wherever we are on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs regardless of politics. Well, that's probably true until politics knocks us off our comfort spot. If enough people lower down the comfort scale vote to reduce your circumstances to theirs, is that democracy or not? No - that's a revolution! It should be an aspiration to reach for the top. Dragging everyone down to the bottom is something else altogether.
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Post by PG on Jan 14, 2021 13:13:25 GMT
Well, that's probably true until politics knocks us off our comfort spot. If enough people lower down the comfort scale vote to reduce your circumstances to theirs, is that democracy or not? No - that's a revolution! It should be an aspiration to reach for the top. Dragging everyone down to the bottom is something else altogether. The SNP introduced higher tax rates; I bet a future Labour government would introduce a wealth tax (after it will only affect "the rich" that hated species that can be fiscally beaten up with zero cost to everyone else - yeah....right..); fiscal drag has put more and more people into the 40% tax band; etc etc. None of which has ever been called a revolution.
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Post by Tim on Jan 14, 2021 13:18:06 GMT
No - that's a revolution! It should be an aspiration to reach for the top. Dragging everyone down to the bottom is something else altogether. The SNP introduced higher tax rates; I bet a future Labour government would introduce a wealth tax (after it will only affect "the rich" that hated species that can be fiscally beaten up with zero cost to everyone else - yeah....right..); fiscal drag has put more and more people into the 40% tax band; etc etc. None of which has ever been called a revolution. We've had 10 years of Tory government and they've not fixed that yet. Fucking Commie bastards, eh?
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Post by johnc on Jan 14, 2021 14:13:33 GMT
The slow stealthy increase in tax take just results in the slow migration of people away from those taxes. Some leave the country, others restructure their affairs more tax effectively and others just grin and suffer. However if someone comes along and overnight increases the tax take significantly then there is an immediate equal and opposite reaction.
My Great Uncle was a millionaire (as well as being a doctor, war hero, Japanese POW) and in the 1970's, as soon as they introduced the 83% higher rate tax along with the 15% Investment Income Surcharge on top, making a 98% top rate of tax, he left the country for Jersey and he lived there for the rest of his life. All of his taxes were then lost to the UK.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 14, 2021 14:15:10 GMT
That was my point. People are often surprisingly quiet about things their preferred party does, where they'd be up in arms if "the other side" did it.
Personally, I despise that approach. It's intellectually lazy and it is also a form of bigotry.
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Post by Big Blue on Jan 14, 2021 15:25:31 GMT
No - that's a revolution! It should be an aspiration to reach for the top. Dragging everyone down to the bottom is something else altogether. The SNP introduced higher tax rates; I bet a future Labour government would introduce a wealth tax (after it will only affect "the rich" that hated species that can be fiscally beaten up with zero cost to everyone else - yeah....right..); fiscal drag has put more and more people into the 40% tax band; etc etc. None of which has ever been called a revolution. But are people being removed from their position in the hierarchy of needs? I'll pay more tax (in percentage terms) this year and next than I did last and two years before that I was in a similar position of higher tax rate than the previous years but I'm not really upset as I am still able to live the life I have lived continuously - housing, heating, clothes, food, travel etc. hence no revolution will come from me and my ilk. Similarly those worse off than I are not as badly off as they are made out to be as there is no revolutionary rumbling (the Brexit vote is the closest we have come recently, with the body being revolted against being, erroneously, the EU) within the UK and there is no mass desire to share wealth more widely regardless of individual input given the lack of success of the Corbynistas even within the wider Labour Party. As I said: balance is the key.
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