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Post by Boxer6 on Jul 6, 2017 16:22:02 GMT
Since you mention Italy, if you go to Milan or to my wife's home town in Le Marche, or I suspect pretty much any sizeable settlement, you cannot go 40ft without being accosted by yet another beggar, most of whom are African migrants. Apart from the fact that it quickly gets quite tedious, no matter how polite they often are, you can also quite easily get through 10 euros a day in coins handed out to desperate-looking people. Which can start to fray your generosity after a while. And moreover, it really brings home the fact that Italy has been absolutely flooded by something like half a million migrants (whether refugees or otherwise). And yet the country making the biggest fuss so far about migration isn't Italy. Apart from the Eastern European countries, where racism against anyone non-white (or indeed non-Slav) is unashamedly rife, it's supposedly tolerant and multicultural Britain, where it's still pretty rare to be accosted by a begging migrant. I suppose that depends on where you are, by which I don't just mean town/city but areas therein. For example, there are certain streets in Glasgow city centre where the beggars are one every hundred yards or less, who apparently are mostly Romanian, and can get quite physical with some people on occasion if they feel "dissed" or short-changed. I understand that in the not too distant past shopkeepers have been assaulted by these beggars' minders, and other's have reported them being bussed into the centre in Transit mini-buses, suggesting organised gangs are at work in addition to the "real" beggars.
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Post by michael on Jul 6, 2017 16:33:58 GMT
Well on that we'll have to disagree.
And that's okay! I can sort of see your point, but I can't make the jump to saying they're all racist. I genuinely don't believe the British have a problem with people because they're foreign or of different ethnicity. I think they have a problem because failures of integration have led to societies within societies.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 6, 2017 16:40:38 GMT
According to the figures I see on-line, net migration to the UK in 2016 dipped under 250k and hit an all-time high of 330k in 2015. Not really "about 400k".
And as for comparisons with Italy, the CIA World Factbook (yeeeesss, I know) figures suggest that net migration in Italy was 3.9/1,000 population, whereas it was 2.5/1,000 population for the UK.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 7, 2017 8:11:34 GMT
Those who are concerned by migration are not racists, they're simply concerned. Well on that we'll have to disagree. I'm always startled by just how casually racist many people are, both here and in other European countries, especially once you get outside the main cities. I know probably more people who are than who aren't, even in "cosmopolitan" London.
Often they'd never consider themselves racist and would be offended to be characterised thus, but they are. Not intentionally - it's just a prejudice so deep-seated that they are actually unaware of it. So they find other reasons to explain their discomfort.
And I say that as someone who is not exactly a bastion of political correctness.
Ah, the old "all white people are racist and all men are rapists" argument. Ok.....
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 7, 2017 8:18:53 GMT
According to the figures I see on-line, net migration to the UK in 2016 dipped under 250k and hit an all-time high of 330k in 2015. Not really "about 400k".
And as for comparisons with Italy, the CIA World Factbook (yeeeesss, I know) figures suggest that net migration in Italy was 3.9/1,000 population, whereas it was 2.5/1,000 population for the UK.
250k is basically the importation of a city the size of Newcastle every year. So if you think of all the homes and schools and hospitals we have in Newcastle, we have to build those every year just to stand still. And of course 250k is just the documented immigration, if anyone thinks that's the sum total they need to give their head a wobble. You can pretty much double that figure. Why do you think we still have no idea how many people died in the Grenfell Tower tragedy? The last figures I read there are approx 500k immigrants that are being used as forced labour in the UK, paid well below minimum wage, living in overcrowded and dangerous conditions and with no recourse to any legal services. But it's OK because they'll wash my car for fiver. Remember Big Issue sellers? They used to be cheery chaps who you'd have a chat with and buy a copy? We don't see them anymore - you have old Roma women selling them on every street corner because the gangmasters beat up the local sellers and move them on from the lucrative pitches so that they can put their people in place.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 8:47:38 GMT
We're not and never have been in Schengen? The migrant crisis isn't related to the EU, it just makes the journey here a little (relative) easier. Schengen itself is marvellous and makes continental drives a bit more of a pleasure. Correct but it has effected the number of people crossing EU borders to get to us, once in they make a bee line for the UK, or at least they have been doing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 8:53:27 GMT
I used to buy big issue every time I went into Lichfield but the last conversation I had with the guy made me rethink. Far from being worse off than me he claimed he was making £350 a week and taking the job he was due to get would mean being £60 a week worse off. I know that is not every seller but the money to be made is obviously there. Definitely a target for illegals and their gang masters or whatever they are called. Barkeeps perhaps?
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Post by michael on Jul 7, 2017 9:22:53 GMT
Some of those on the continent blame our generous benefits system for that. Whether that is true or not isn't the point, why should we change something that UK parliament has designed for the UK people because of migration? Similarly why should the Europeans in Schengen change their friction-less borders that work so well for them just because of migration? And the fact remains that once they (and it's not all) reach the channel there is a border. The migrant crisis was badly handled with an inconsistent approach across Europe but it's no reason to dismantle the things that do improve lives of Europeans.
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Post by Alex on Jul 7, 2017 10:12:10 GMT
Some of those on the continent blame our generous benefits system for that. Whether that is true or not isn't the point, why should we change something that UK parliament has designed for the UK people because of migration? Similarly why should the Europeans in Schengen change their friction-less borders that work so well for them just because of migration? And the fact remains that once they (and it's not all) reach the channel there is a border. The migrant crisis was badly handled with an inconsistent approach across Europe but it's no reason to dismantle the things that do improve lives of Europeans. I agree that Schengen makes getting across borders around the continent hassle free and is an important part of life for many of Europes citizens. The biggest problem is the lack of support for those at the edge of Schengen not getting enough support to be effective in their role as gatekeeper. Does Italy really get enough protection from all the Africans that head for their shores. Possibly not.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 7, 2017 10:27:20 GMT
Well on that we'll have to disagree. I'm always startled by just how casually racist many people are, both here and in other European countries, especially once you get outside the main cities. I know probably more people who are than who aren't, even in "cosmopolitan" London.
Often they'd never consider themselves racist and would be offended to be characterised thus, but they are. Not intentionally - it's just a prejudice so deep-seated that they are actually unaware of it. So they find other reasons to explain their discomfort.
And I say that as someone who is not exactly a bastion of political correctness.
Ah, the old "all white people are racist and all men are rapists" argument. Ok..... That's a trite remark and you know it. All cultures suffer from racism - as I argued earlier it seems to be a frequent feature of human culture in general. The fact that we happen to be talking about Europe (since that's what the topic relates to) does not mean I or anyone else here is suggesting it is an inherently European issue.
Do I really strike you as a bleeding heart political correctness warrior? If I do, then you risk falling foul of what I was saying about people thinking in black and white when it comes to politics.
I think the immigration debate, like most things, comes in a range of shades of grey, and inextricably woven into that spectrum of reasons and motivations is racism, whether you like it or not.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 7, 2017 10:35:45 GMT
According to the figures I see on-line, net migration to the UK in 2016 dipped under 250k and hit an all-time high of 330k in 2015. Not really "about 400k".
And as for comparisons with Italy, the CIA World Factbook (yeeeesss, I know) figures suggest that net migration in Italy was 3.9/1,000 population, whereas it was 2.5/1,000 population for the UK.
250k is basically the importation of a city the size of Newcastle every year. So if you think of all the homes and schools and hospitals we have in Newcastle, we have to build those every year just to stand still. And of course 250k is just the documented immigration, if anyone thinks that's the sum total they need to give their head a wobble. You can pretty much double that figure. Why do you think we still have no idea how many people died in the Grenfell Tower tragedy? The last figures I read there are approx 500k immigrants that are being used as forced labour in the UK, paid well below minimum wage, living in overcrowded and dangerous conditions and with no recourse to any legal services. But it's OK because they'll wash my car for fiver. Remember Big Issue sellers? They used to be cheery chaps who you'd have a chat with and buy a copy? We don't see them anymore - you have old Roma women selling them on every street corner because the gangmasters beat up the local sellers and move them on from the lucrative pitches so that they can put their people in place. I'm not disputing that. I was just fact-checking your figures. Playing free and loose with statistics was quite a feature of the mendacious Leave campaign that got us into this mess in the first place, so I do think that we should at least try to all learn the lesson to (a) be a bit more precise and (b) not simply cherry-pick the evidence that supports our arguments whilst ignoring that which does not.
On the topic of which, undocumented immigration is just that. Which is not so much an immigration issue or some monstrous imposition of the EU authorities, but rather a failure by the UK authorities to act in an efficient and responsible manner. I know we all somehow think ID cards are un-British but the lack of them certainly doesn't help resolve this particular issue.
And on your last point, that is surely at least in part caused by policing and security failings, something Mrs May's fingerprints are all over.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 11:46:46 GMT
Item on the news which has not been repeated. We lose 26 markets and they (EU post Brexit) lose 1. Cannot see it myself, 26 nations will be remaining in the EU and they each lose 1 market which to my mind is 26 markets lost to the EU as a whole. We are at least as strong in bargaining chips as the other 26 nations are. The suggestion that not wanting uncontrolled immigration makes a racist I cannot fathom. Simple logic tells us we cannot continue and for whatever reason people think it began, it has to stop. Why we were giving anyone who just turned up on our doorsteps money and homes is something I have never understood, not generosity, stupidity.
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Post by Tim on Aug 3, 2017 12:27:54 GMT
Why we were giving anyone who just turned up on our doorsteps money and homes is something I have never understood, not generosity, stupidity.
I think this has been overstated, sadly. All of the foreigners I know are working, usually with a much better work ethic than the locals.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2017 14:41:39 GMT
Not meaning the working folk who quite frankly get a bad press. I mean the so called refugee's and illegals, not to mention those running criminal gangs etc, which reminds me of a criminal gang of home breeds that could do with changing.
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Post by Big Blue on Aug 3, 2017 14:43:35 GMT
Why we were giving anyone who just turned up on our doorsteps money and homes is something I have never understood, not generosity, stupidity.
I think this has been overstated, sadly. All of the foreigners I know are working, usually with a much better work ethic than the locals.
Indeed. The media and other organisations always find the worst cases to show us how it's all gone wrong. Aside from the loss of a source of workers, who or what is going to replace all the tax and NI paid by the immigrant workforce which pays the benefits of those sections of the indigenous population that don't work, won't move to where work is and who expect to be given hand-outs to sustain their lifestyles? You can argue all these points until you're blue in the face: that skilled workers can be undercut by foreign workers living 10 to a house; that UK workers can't sustain a UK-lifestyle on the salaries offered due to that undercutting etc. etc. The point is a protectionist society is no better: far from it. Towns on the French Riviera are suffering 40-50% shortfalls in work due to the French regulations on workforces and strict work-to-regulation rules in the yachting industry - in France you can't simply call a Polish builder or chef or barman on the cheap: they cost as much to employ as an other Jacques or Giles. OK so yachts are owned by billionaires but the folks that work on them, work on the mooring sites, run the cafes and bars in the mooring ports are ordinary people. Far from the over-reported "facts" that we are awash with sponging Jonny-foreigners having 10 kids each most foreign nationals come here to work and earn money. They're not coming for the climate, are they? Edited to add: There's been criminal gangs in the UK as long as there have been across the rest of the world. We're not some puritanical society. Illegal immigrants also don't really get the kind of welfare the rest of society gets either. I agree something needs to change but coherently, not some knee jerk popularist agenda based on hearsay.
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Post by michael on Aug 3, 2017 15:09:31 GMT
Item on the news which has not been repeated. We lose 26 markets and they (EU post Brexit) lose 1. Cannot see it myself, 26 nations will be remaining in the EU and they each lose 1 market which to my mind is 26 markets lost to the EU as a whole. We are at least as strong in bargaining chips as the other 26 nations are. That isn't correct. The single market is just that, single market. The single market looses a customer much smaller that it, we loose a customer much larger. We are not in a strong position just as we will not be in a strong position when we set up trade deals with other countries. What matters now is how we get on outside of the EU.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 3, 2017 17:06:17 GMT
I was somewhat more taken aback at the report of the number of Brexit supporters who consider that Brexit would be worth them or a family member losing their job. That's quite astounding.
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Post by Alex on Aug 3, 2017 18:59:59 GMT
I was somewhat more taken aback at the report of the number of Brexit supporters who consider that Brexit would be worth them or a family member losing their job. That's quite astounding. I was amazed by that too considering how a strong part of the argument was that we'd be better off (to the tune of £350m a day if you believe what you read on the side of buses).
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 3, 2017 20:16:25 GMT
Imagine your brother or sister telling you that as far as they are concerned, Brexit is more important to them than you having a job!? You'd be pretty unimpressed.
I'm afraid to me it's just more evidence than Brexitism is not grounded in any form of reality.
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Post by michael on Aug 3, 2017 20:55:38 GMT
I know you've said you're not a fan of getting on with it now it has happened but what do you suppose should happen next?
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Post by Alex on Aug 4, 2017 7:18:21 GMT
Trouble is, as we're finding out, we can't just get on with it. Many leave voters assumed that we'd wake up the next morning instantly out of the EU. For one thing there was no way they'd ever let us do that but, mainly, I don't think there is the political appetite for it. I can't help suspecting that there are a lot of politicians who'd rather not have their name associated with it should the shit properly hits the fan.
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Post by ChrisM on Aug 4, 2017 7:20:02 GMT
I think that the politicians have proved how useless and hopeless they all are since we are now a year down the line and still, they do not have a proper plan of how to proceed......
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Post by michael on Aug 4, 2017 7:25:59 GMT
Trouble is, as we're finding out, we can't just get on with it. Many leave voters assumed that we'd wake up the next morning instantly out of the EU. But then the trouble is we have to get on with it because Article 50 has been triggered and we are leaving the EU. We are beyond the point of no return hence the need to get on with it.
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Post by Tim on Aug 4, 2017 10:22:39 GMT
I think that the politicians have proved how useless and hopeless they all are since we are now a year down the line and still, they do not have a proper plan of how to proceed......
That point has been made again today by the SMMT on the back of falling car sales - they're down 2.2% year to date despite the big rush prior to the VED change in March.
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Post by johnc on Aug 4, 2017 11:00:09 GMT
I can't help suspecting that there are a lot of politicians who'd rather not have their name associated with it should the shit properly hits the fan. I think many of them are now realising that there is a massive fan and an endless supply of shit. It's not a case of will we get hit it's a case of how badly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2017 13:44:28 GMT
I think this has been overstated, sadly. All of the foreigners I know are working, usually with a much better work ethic than the locals.
Indeed. The media and other organisations always find the worst cases to show us how it's all gone wrong. Aside from the loss of a source of workers, who or what is going to replace all the tax and NI paid by the immigrant workforce which pays the benefits of those sections of the indigenous population that don't work, won't move to where work is and who expect to be given hand-outs to sustain their lifestyles? You can argue all these points until you're blue in the face: that skilled workers can be undercut by foreign workers living 10 to a house; that UK workers can't sustain a UK-lifestyle on the salaries offered due to that undercutting etc. etc. The point is a protectionist society is no better: far from it. Towns on the French Riviera are suffering 40-50% shortfalls in work due to the French regulations on workforces and strict work-to-regulation rules in the yachting industry - in France you can't simply call a Polish builder or chef or barman on the cheap: they cost as much to employ as an other Jacques or Giles. OK so yachts are owned by billionaires but the folks that work on them, work on the mooring sites, run the cafes and bars in the mooring ports are ordinary people. Far from the over-reported "facts" that we are awash with sponging Jonny-foreigners having 10 kids each most foreign nationals come here to work and earn money. They're not coming for the climate, are they? Edited to add: There's been criminal gangs in the UK as long as there have been across the rest of the world. We're not some puritanical society. Illegal immigrants also don't really get the kind of welfare the rest of society gets either. I agree something needs to change but coherently, not some knee jerk popularist agenda based on hearsay. For a very long time illegals have been getting health care and housing help etc. There have been many second lettings of council properties to illegals. I hope this is going to cease and illegals are found and removed. The black economy needs to be eradicated.
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Post by johnc on Aug 4, 2017 15:05:45 GMT
I hope this is going to cease and illegals are found and removed. The black economy needs to be eradicated. I can assure you that the black economy is predominantly an issue for British tradesmen and for immigrants from outside the EU. As BB said, the immigrants I have met who came from inside the EU (and to be fair, some from outside) only want to work, to do things properly and to stay out of trouble.
There will always be exceptions to the rule but the above is based on my day to day experience.
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Post by racingteatray on Aug 4, 2017 15:57:01 GMT
Let's Brexit again....like we did last summer...
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 29, 2017 12:20:18 GMT
This is potentially very good news for the local supply chain. It's long been a worry that, while Nissan is assembling in the UK, an increasing percentage of the parts that go into every vehicle are made across Europe and imported.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 10:40:22 GMT
I hope this is going to cease and illegals are found and removed. The black economy needs to be eradicated. I can assure you that the black economy is predominantly an issue for British tradesmen and for immigrants from outside the EU. As BB said, the immigrants I have met who came from inside the EU (and to be fair, some from outside) only want to work, to do things properly and to stay out of trouble.
There will always be exceptions to the rule but the above is based on my day to day experience.
It is only a part but we should make a start on the job somewhere. Criminal gangs of all varieties should be eradicated rather than repeated slaps on the wrist, those who have an origin outside of this group of loosely aligned nations should be removed with no appeal, family too. We are a soft touch compared to some nations out there and it should stop.
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