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Post by johnc on Dec 23, 2017 10:36:55 GMT
Agreed - probably no chance. If the EU had agreed to limit freedom of movement, then the vote would possibly have gone the other way. But as the EU keep on saying that the four "freedoms" can't be split, I don't see them changing that now. I think that kind of deal would be in everyone's best interests - it's just a pity that the EU didn't think a bit more seriously about it when David Cameron was trying to get a better deal and some changes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2017 11:01:09 GMT
The deal would probably dilute the EU nation state that is being built. Power mad muppets in the EU caused all this in the first place.
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Post by racingteatray on Dec 23, 2017 12:55:49 GMT
The deal would probably dilute the EU nation state that is being built. Power mad muppets in the EU caused all this in the first place. I really do need an eye-rolling emoticon. Sorry but I do see that point of view as evidence of the efficacy of the lies put about by those in the media ideologically opposed to Europe in any shape or form. I am firmly of the view that most of our problems and those of other EU countries are self-generated by national and local governments. That’s where the real corruption, vested interests, inefficiencies, absence of care and general bureaucratic overreach actually is. But our own politicians and those in other EU countries have spent so long gleefully blaming Europe for everything that goes wrong that it’s no surprise that many see the problem being Europe.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2017 14:58:51 GMT
What makes you think I am swayed by the media? I am firmly and decidedly making up my own mind and do not need to be told what to think or who to believe thanks.
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Post by racingteatray on Dec 23, 2017 18:49:04 GMT
But we all make up our minds based on what we see, hear and read said by other people. Few of us have sufficient direct personal experience on every topic to do otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2017 9:30:36 GMT
Actually, I do not need other people's opinion to make mine. Basic facts of what is going on and I decide on my own. Using that "We all" brush rather too liberally there.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 24, 2017 9:54:38 GMT
Everyone is affected by the nurturing of others, whether that’s positively or negatively, parents, carers, the forces, a spouse, the things you read, see, experience the actions of others. Etc.
Also, knowing “what’s going on”: let me assure you that people across the desk from each other in Westminster don’t know what each other know so we mortals have no chance of having a clue what’s going on regarding Brexit. For instance people thought the U.K. could just make trade demands based on the strength of UK spending and economy when in actuality Brexit has given other economies a chance to scale that back, which is what the Brexit extraction cost is all about: take away a huge chunk of the U.K. budget and stop advancement of trade in other areas due to reduced spending. There are also lots of people in Germany that want to give the U.K. a special deal but other pressures prevent them from being vociferous about it so the German people don’t really know where they stand. The leading right wing French candidate is utterly pro-British but France hates Britain’s trading and banking sectors being so dominant over theirs, so the French don’t know what’s going on either.
It’s never that simple to know what’s going on which is why it’s best to make a View based on the information available from several sources.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2017 12:07:39 GMT
On the topic of where the bleaders of the EU are pushing for a nation state is directly from the bleatings of junckers and barnier. They have called for an and to the national veto and the cdreation of a standing army. The standing eu air force and navy will probably come later. Despite those same people and others, the departure of the UK from the eu is something of a potential deck of cards for them, take into account the events in Spain. Take into account also, the balance of trade between us and the eu nations and it is very lop sided which is something our bleaders seem to fail to take into account, I said seem because I agree I cannot know. I am not taking this personally in anty way because that would be churlish to say the least. I see the potential for some very dark days indeed if the junckers/barnier train get their way because no deal would be much better than that deal.
There was a mention that some Germans would like to see a special deal for the UK but that does not take into account the other countries which have at least as much, and possibly much more to lose than we do.
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Post by racingteatray on Dec 25, 2017 20:24:00 GMT
But so far as I can tell, they can call for an EU army until they are blue in the face but the rest of Europe, not least the French and Germans, are no keener on that idea than you are and therefore it’s not likely to happen. And we also used to have a rather useful and powerful veto over any excessive European nonsense. But we’ve rather chucked that baby out with the Brexit bathwater.
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 30, 2021 11:35:29 GMT
Fascinating reading back the early pages of this thread...
I was trying to find the horribly and unwittingly prescient bit in this or another interminable Brexit thread, where some years pre-plague, I commented that the only way Brexit would be anything other than a massive f*ck-up would be if some ghastly major international incident intervened that overshadowed it...
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Post by michael on Mar 30, 2021 12:12:29 GMT
Usual suspects I see...
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Post by garry on Mar 30, 2021 12:36:36 GMT
Fascinating reading back the early pages of this thread... I was trying to find the horribly and unwittingly prescient bit in this or another interminable Brexit thread, where some years pre-plague, I commented that the only way Brexit would be anything other than a massive f*ck-up would be if some ghastly major international incident intervened that overshadowed it... I was a remainer. I'm also a sceptic of the handling of Covid. Although a Conservative, I'm no fan of Boris Johnson (Who seems like a horrific lab experiment where Worzal Gummage, Peter Stringfellow and Pinocchio all simultaneously wanked over a latin dictionary that was then fermented in a test tube) But the governments vaccine response has been excellent. I don't see how we would have had that freedom of movement to plot our own path through this if we were still part of the EU. It's not convinced me that I was wrong to be a remainer, but it's made me think it was a more evenly balanced case than I did previously.
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Post by Alex on Mar 31, 2021 15:37:22 GMT
That's the sort of view I've always taken. I dont think I would have voted to leave but the more the process has gone on and especially with the events of the last year (both in relation to Brexit and Covid), the more it's become obvious that the argument is much more nuanced than the idea that the argument is between the young liberals who cleverly voted remain and the old racists who stupidly voted leave. I dont think Brexit will go down in history as being an utter shitshow but equally I don't think we'll ever see the sunny uplands that Boris has promised us.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Mar 31, 2021 15:46:19 GMT
I voted remain, never really thinking the vote would go the other way. I wouldn’t vote to rejoin though.
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Post by Alex on Mar 31, 2021 15:48:32 GMT
I didn't vote at all because I couldn't get back home from Scotland due to my flight being delayed because the French air traffic controllers were on strike! There's some irony in that.
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Post by PetrolEd on Mar 31, 2021 16:26:39 GMT
I voted remain, never really thinking the vote would go the other way. I wouldn’t vote to rejoin though. +1
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Post by racingteatray on Mar 31, 2021 16:32:51 GMT
It would certainly even more seem insane to re-join in the short term than it was to leave in the first place.
However I see no merit in saying how I would or wouldn't vote in a hypothetical future situation, as I would like to think I'd make that decision based on an assessment of the facts then, not the views I might hold now.
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Post by michael on Apr 1, 2021 11:03:19 GMT
I voted remain but obviously wouldn’t vote to rejoin the present version of the EU. If after COVID there was a recognised need to reform the EU and the UK was invited to be part of that process I’d jump at it.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 1, 2021 11:36:05 GMT
Both Racing’s And Michael’s points demonstrate the very severe consequences of the failure to acknowledge or act on Cameron telling the EU to reform or risk the departure of the UK. In their arrogance the EU ignored the warnings and ploughed ahead and whilst Brexit is a very British problem in our press it’s a severe problem for the families, businesses and workers from almost all EU states that are affected. I am also a Remainer and would now not recommend a rejoining of the current EU as the UK would just be that bunch of twats over there. What irks most is leaving the best deal of all EU nations so only a fundamental reform whereby such a deal was largely reinstated would be acceptable. This would only be possible if Germany and France were allowed such deals and that nationalist interests were allowed up to greater thresholds (so certain projects and supply deals were allowed to be ring fenced to maintain the impression of National control). The whole rules on settlement and access to services works fine so the UK would have to be clear about enforcing it, which of course would upset millions of Commonwealth arrivers and stayers if the rules were applied uniformly as they should be.
As a trade and travel block without automatic settlement rights all would be fine but the huge service budgets from the financial sector have become a battleground for the former and the lack of required physical id in the UK is a barrier to the latter - plus of course the UK business mindset of paying as little as possible for maximum short term returns which has driven the ingress of labour for generations.
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