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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 10:27:31 GMT
If the EU had changed its ways or even shown willing to do so, we may well have stayed but this is an attempt to make an example of us to deter others from leaving the sinking ship. The EU has changed from being trading partners to an emerging nation state. Not something the average citizen signed up for.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 12:20:20 GMT
My frustration is if the EU had tabled an offer to end or substantially limit free movement or restrict benefits we wouldn't be where we are and other European countries wouldn't have seen the rise of far right groups.
The first part of this is a very valid point - if the EU had made some concessions when David Cameron went to see them we'd probably be staying. However, I suspect the EU thought along the same lines as many people did in that they never expected a Leave vote to get anywhere near success.
They did - okay they didn't roll over and ask him to scratch their belly which is what Farage et-al would expect as a minimum, he got concessions that were either specific to the UK (e.g. none-Euro countries would not be expected to take part in a Euro bail-out) or of benefit to all (i.e. commitment to reduce red tape...granted that depends on your belief this would actually happen).
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 12:27:27 GMT
The first part of this is a very valid point - if the EU had made some concessions when David Cameron went to see them we'd probably be staying. However, I suspect the EU thought along the same lines as many people did in that they never expected a Leave vote to get anywhere near success.
They did - okay they didn't roll over and ask him to scratch their belly which is what Farage et-al would expect as a minimum, he got concessions that were either specific to the UK (e.g. none-Euro countries would not be expected to take part in a Euro bail-out) or of benefit to all (i.e. commitment to reduce red tape...granted that depends on your belief this would actually happen). How does an exemption on a bail out end free movement?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 12:39:14 GMT
Don't remember saying it did.
It has been cited that the EU were unwilling to compromise or negotiate, that doesn't appear to be the case which implies to me there are (or we're) further discussions to be had on key subjects.
On migration, he didn't get anywhere on those who move and work although in-work benefits would be phased-in over 4 years; EU migrants could not claim job seekers allowance for 3 months and after 6 if they had not found a job they would be required to leave. Benefits could be sent 'home' for children but proportionate to that countries benefits for children.
Not acceptable if you are Farage, but a sign of negotiation and compromise on both sides.
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 13:34:38 GMT
The entire debate you quoted was to do with migration, the one where your first two words were "They did". It's an unhealthy obsession of the left to frame debates on their own moral terms in order to shut down an argument, this sort of thing, "Not acceptable if you are Farage". You might like immigration but those who disagree with you slightly are not right-wing Farage wannabes, they simple have a position that is different from your own.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 14:23:28 GMT
The entire debate you quoted was to do with migration, the one where your first two words were "They did". It's an unhealthy obsession of the left to frame debates on their own moral terms in order to shut down an argument, this sort of thing, "Not acceptable if you are Farage". You might like immigration but those who disagree with you slightly are not right-wing Farage wannabes, they simple have a position that is different from your own. Apologies, I was trying to engage in a generally constructive discussion but that's invariably impossible of course if contributors would rather try and score futile points to give their own ego a little massage. That those who are pre-engineered to see the bad in everything EU (the 'Farage') wouldn't be willing to see that negotiation had yielded some results should hardly a shock, in the same sense that the rosy EU garden of Europhiles don't understand the need for reform. Of course, in trying to be centrist some would see it as a leftist plot, there is little one can do about that other than look on with a degree of sadness.
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Post by Tim on Jul 5, 2017 14:23:39 GMT
I'm happy with immigration at its current levels and really don't consider myself to be from 'the left', in fact I find the constant references to 'the left' to be quite condescending. It's a term rooted in the 1970s to my mind and even if you think that's the era Corbyn is operating in doesn't mean people who share some of the same views think similarly. I know I don't. In the run up to the 2015 election I found myself agreeing with about 90% of what Nigel Farage said but I don't think that means I'm from 'the right'. I could never have brought myself to vote for UKIP as they have a couple of policies that are an absolute no-go for me. Similarly I agree with quite a lot of Tory policies. Perhaps at the next election I should simply vote for all the candidates and paint myself red, blue, yellow and purple?
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 14:31:05 GMT
The entire debate you quoted was to do with migration, the one where your first two words were "They did". It's an unhealthy obsession of the left to frame debates on their own moral terms in order to shut down an argument, this sort of thing, "Not acceptable if you are Farage". You might like immigration but those who disagree with you slightly are not right-wing Farage wannabes, they simple have a position that is different from your own. Apologies, I was trying to engage in a generally constructive discussion but that's invariably impossible of course if contributors would rather try and score futile points to give their own ego a little massage. That those who are pre-engineered to see the bad in everything EU (the 'Farage') wouldn't be willing to see that negotiation had yielded some results should hardly a shock, in the same sense that the rosy EU garden of Europhiles don't understand the need for reform. Of course, in trying to be centrist some would see it as a leftist plot, there is little one can do about that other than look on with a degree of sadness. Do I need to point out the irony here?
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 14:35:16 GMT
Perhaps at the next election I should simply vote for all the candidates and paint myself red, blue, yellow and purple? I'm trying to think what is in those colours but the best I can come up with is you wouldn't suit them. With Brexit I think all the main parties have a good chance of blowing themselves to shreds so maybe we will get some new fetching shades and tints that go together.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 14:44:00 GMT
Apologies, I was trying to engage in a generally constructive discussion but that's invariably impossible of course if contributors would rather try and score futile points to give their own ego a little massage. That those who are pre-engineered to see the bad in everything EU (the 'Farage') wouldn't be willing to see that negotiation had yielded some results should hardly a shock, in the same sense that the rosy EU garden of Europhiles don't understand the need for reform. Of course, in trying to be centrist some would see it as a leftist plot, there is little one can do about that other than look on with a degree of sadness. Do I need to point out the irony here? Carry on, being the self-appointed righteousness police must surely have some benefits.
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 14:46:32 GMT
I assume you are just taking the piss now!
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Post by Tim on Jul 5, 2017 14:48:45 GMT
Perhaps at the next election I should simply vote for all the candidates and paint myself red, blue, yellow and purple? I'm trying to think what is in those colours but the best I can come up with is you wouldn't suit them. With Brexit I think all the main parties have a good chance of blowing themselves to shreds so maybe we will get some new fetching shades and tints that go together.
My wife says purple suits me.......
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 14:50:17 GMT
Ask for an Aston Villa strip for your birthday, I think that's as close as I can get.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 5, 2017 16:14:11 GMT
I think that sticking to debating the point in question, rather than the person, would lead to a more harmonious Politics section of the Forum.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 5, 2017 17:23:43 GMT
It is the cross to bear of the centrist that everybody hates you - the rightwingers think you an appalling leftist and the leftwingers think you're a fascist. That's because so many people who hold "wing" views effectively think in political black and white: if you criticise Corbyn, you must be a screaming Tory, if you criticise the Tories, you must be a paid-up commie.
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 17:35:17 GMT
It's funny though that I voted remain, and would again, yet can see why people voted for brexit (it was immigration) yet that seems to make me right wing. It's all to do with perspective but I feel I'm the one seeing things in shades of grey. Then again when you get certain individuals accusing others, without any irony, of being self-appointed righteous police having themselves been the ones who bring morals into the debate in the first place you soon realise some are incapable of reasoned debate or indeed reflection.
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Post by LandieMark on Jul 5, 2017 17:43:17 GMT
It is the cross to bear of the centrist that everybody hates you - the rightwingers think you an appalling leftist and the leftwingers think you're a fascist. That's because so many people who hold "wing" views effectively think in political black and white: if you criticise Corbyn, you must be a screaming Tory, if you criticise the Tories, you must be a paid-up commie. It's funny though that I voted remain, and would again, yet can see why people voted for brexit (it was immigration) yet that seems to make me right wing. It's all to do with perspective but I feel I'm the one seeing things in shades of grey. Then again when you get certain individuals accusing others, without any irony, of being self-appointed righteous police having themselves been the ones who bring morals into the debate in the first place you soon realise some are incapable of reasoned debate or indeed reflection. Can't argue with either of those statements. There is also the issue of people who see themselves as centrist, but hold extremist views on both the right and left. Facebook is full of that.
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Post by PG on Jul 5, 2017 17:46:43 GMT
It is the cross to bear of the centrist that everybody hates you - the rightwingers think you an appalling leftist and the leftwingers think you're a fascist. That's because so many people who hold "wing" views effectively think in political black and white: if you criticise Corbyn, you must be a screaming Tory, if you criticise the Tories, you must be a paid-up commie. All debates are shades of grey. But in our sound bite, small attention span, Twitter world, that is totally lost and people end up making black or white statements. Then everyone gets the trenching tools and barbed wire out and then we are in trench warfare.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 5, 2017 17:52:13 GMT
The EU has changed from being trading partners to an emerging nation state. Not something the average citizen signed up for. Setting aside the fact I think your first statement is incorrect, I have never quite grasped why the second one is correct. I get that it is but I don't really get why that is the case, other than a failure of education systems to banish traditional cultural prejudices.
Obsessions with nationalism and sovereignty have always struck me as remarkably backward-looking. In principle, I couldn't care less whether we had one single world government with a World President whose precise country of birth could be frankly anywhere, provided it was effective, well run, liberal, responsible and globally fair [etc]. Obviously, I am aware that's almost certainly impossible in practice. But I do get the sense that there are large numbers of people who would simply object on sheer principle to being ruled by somebody born somewhere they don't consider to be the same country. And it's hard to see how that is anything other than xenophobia.
Nobody likes to think they might be prejudiced but until we all learn to recognise and confront our own prejudices, then we are never going to get very far.
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 18:00:57 GMT
I'd counter that the issue is more around the ability to vote them out rather than their nationality. In the case of European Commission plenty of them are British anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 20:13:58 GMT
I think it is the fault of all those left wing nazi liberals myself.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 20:27:29 GMT
It should not be a surprise that those living on a large island should have a more protectionist attitude to those on mainland Europe. If the EU had been run responsibly rather than the ridiculous Schengen accord that allows mass migration to occur with little hindrance more voters MAY have voted to remain. The waste and ignorance of the EU is what made me vote to leave but I am not ignorant and if I had seen change would have voted remain but the EU has not intention of changing and every intention of continuing the growth into a nation state which will be a real monster, roll on the discussions with Putin and others. I am a Trekkie and the thought of a one planet government is a halo part of what I believe but until the governments operate as intelligent people without special privilege for "Friends" the average citizen will not accept it. If this sounds like I am blaming Schengen for everything, I am not as there are far too many foul ups to meekly accept that the EU can us us as an example to others who are perceived to be standing on the edge of the cliff and wondering how deep the water is.
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2017 21:03:54 GMT
We're not and never have been in Schengen? The migrant crisis isn't related to the EU, it just makes the journey here a little (relative) easier. Schengen itself is marvellous and makes continental drives a bit more of a pleasure.
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 5, 2017 21:15:28 GMT
Schengen is fine but the poor buggers on the outskirts were / are forever being vilified for being fascist unfeeling bastards when they take hordes of migrants from outside Schengen and put them in camps; then they're called wayward when they let them all just migrate to what are effectively shanty towns in places like Calais. Are the people of Sardinia horrible racists because they dislike the port area being overrun with African migrants, each with two mobile phones and simply just living in what are public spaces? Or are are they simply proud of their island and don't like to see it abused?
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 6, 2017 15:13:42 GMT
Since you mention Italy, if you go to Milan or to my wife's home town in Le Marche, or I suspect pretty much any sizeable settlement, you cannot go 40ft without being accosted by yet another beggar, most of whom are African migrants. Apart from the fact that it quickly gets quite tedious, no matter how polite they often are, you can also quite easily get through 10 euros a day in coins handed out to desperate-looking people. Which can start to fray your generosity after a while. And moreover, it really brings home the fact that Italy has been absolutely flooded by something like half a million migrants (whether refugees or otherwise).
And yet the country making the biggest fuss so far about migration isn't Italy. Apart from the Eastern European countries, where racism against anyone non-white (or indeed non-Slav) is unashamedly rife, it's supposedly tolerant and multicultural Britain, where it's still pretty rare to be accosted by a begging migrant.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 6, 2017 15:20:06 GMT
The EU has changed from being trading partners to an emerging nation state. Not something the average citizen signed up for.
Obsessions with nationalism and sovereignty have always struck me as remarkably backward-looking. In principle, I couldn't care less whether we had one single world government with a World President whose precise country of birth could be frankly anywhere, provided it was effective, well run, liberal, responsible and globally fair [etc]. That sounds like a nightmare dystopian vision of the future of us all being run by an unelected elite. Unless you fancy yourself as one of those elite I suppose.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 6, 2017 15:31:56 GMT
Since you mention Italy, if you go to Milan or to my wife's home town in Le Marche, or I suspect pretty much any sizeable settlement, you cannot go 40ft without being accosted by yet another beggar, most of whom are African migrants. Apart from the fact that it quickly gets quite tedious, no matter how polite they often are, you can also quite easily get through 10 euros a day in coins handed out to desperate-looking people. Which can start to fray your generosity after a while. And moreover, it really brings home the fact that Italy has been absolutely flooded by something like half a million migrants (whether refugees or otherwise). And yet the country making the biggest fuss so far about migration isn't Italy. Apart from the Eastern European countries, where racism against anyone non-white (or indeed non-Slav) is unashamedly rife, it's supposedly tolerant and multicultural Britain, where it's still pretty rare to be accosted by a begging migrant. That's good to know. It means we don't need to tackle the problem until it gets that bad here. But seriously, the population of Italy is stagnant and is expected to fall from 59 million to 58 million by 2030. The population of the UK is expected to grow from 66 million to 70 million by 2030 and is far more densely populated. We add about 400k people per year and our nett migration is nearly double theirs.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 6, 2017 15:39:14 GMT
Some Brits are moaning about immigration due to the reduction in wages in many sectors and nothing to do with begging Africans. If you think you have the opportunity to improve your lot, no matter how small by voting out of the EU, you can't blame those that have gone down that route.
Some people might love immigration as their jobs are in a professional capacity and therefore little competition from overseas and it means it costs less to get their house in the country painted every few years or the gardeners now cheaper.
Its a bit much not to get both sides of the argument. Now those that left just because they wanted their country back and not to have laws passed to us from Brussels probably do need to have their vote taken away.
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Post by michael on Jul 6, 2017 15:58:45 GMT
Migration is a massive issue across Europe. The far right vote in Austria was nearly 50%, the anti immigration party of Geert Wilders in Holland came second in their election and look how well Le Penn did. It's disingenuous to suggest that racism is rife in Britain, that's simply not the case. Those who are concerned by migration are not racists, they're simply concerned. The Syrian migrant crisis has stoked up a lot of tension so what happens if there is another crisis, from Algeria perhaps? My guess would be that the French would then quite like border checks with Spain.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 6, 2017 16:16:05 GMT
Those who are concerned by migration are not racists, they're simply concerned. Well on that we'll have to disagree. I'm always startled by just how casually racist many people are, both here and in other European countries, especially once you get outside the main cities. I know probably more people who are than who aren't, even in "cosmopolitan" London.
Often they'd never consider themselves racist and would be offended to be characterised thus, but they are. Not intentionally - it's just a prejudice so deep-seated that they are actually unaware of it. So they find other reasons to explain their discomfort.
And I say that as someone who is not exactly a bastion of political correctness.
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