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Post by michael on Jan 26, 2021 12:37:37 GMT
If it doesn't then, then the EU should of course back down. From Robert Peston
The important difference between AstraZeneca's relationship with the UK and with the EU, and the reason it has fallen behind schedule on 50m vaccine doses promised to the EU, is that the UK agreed the deal with AZ a full three months before the EU did - which gave AZ an extra three months to sort out manufacturing and supply problems relating to the UK contract (there were plenty of problems). Here is the important timeline. In May AZ reached agreement with Oxford and the UK government to make and supply the vaccine. In fact Oxford had already started work on the supply chain. The following month AZ reached a preliminary agreement with Germany, the Netherlands, France and Italy, a group known as the Inclusive Vaccine Alliance, based on the agreement with the UK. The announcement was 13 June. BUT the EU insisted that the Inclusive Vaccine Alliance could not formalise the deal. The European Commission insisted it should take over the contract negotiations on behalf of the whole EU. So were another two months of talks and the contract was not signed till the end of August.
What is frustrating for AZ is that the extra talks with the European Commission led to no material changes to the contract, but wasted time on making arrangements to make the vaccine with partner sites. The yield at these partner sites has been lower than expected. The problem s in the course of being sorted. AZ say it is working 24/7 to make up the time and deliver the quantities the EU wanted. It says its contract with the EU - as with the UK - was always on a "best effort" basis, because it was starting from scratch to deliver unprecedented amounts for no profit. AZ is not blaming the EU. But it does not understand why it is being painted as the "bad guy" given that if the deal had happened in June, when Germany, the Netherlands, France and Italy wanted it done, most of these supply issues would already have been sorted. A pro-EU source at the company says "I understand Brexit better now".
PS According to AZ, the EU claim that it pays less to AZ per dose, and that is why AZ "works harder for the UK than for the EU", is "completely incorrect". It charges the same price to all buyers, wherever they are in the world, subject to small adjustments due to local costs
In terms of vaccines, thank Matt Hancock we did! He faced a barrage of condemnation last year for refusing to sign up to the EU plan and instead said we'd go our own way because it'd be quicker. He was right.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 12:56:49 GMT
There is always that little thing of the contract between HMG and AZ, the eu had to know that, they also have to know they would lose in their own court if it came to it. Pointless posturing imho but you do love the eu so I expect nothing less.
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Post by michael on Jan 26, 2021 12:59:23 GMT
Incidentally, the global Britain approach was announced this morning. We're opening up our world-beating sequencing capacity as Department of Health today launched the “New Variant Assessment Platform” to provide early warning of new mutations.Countries who want help “will be offered UK capacity to analyse new strains”.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 13:02:52 GMT
There is always that little thing of the contract between HMG and AZ, the eu had to know that, they also have to know they would lose in their own court if it came to it. Pointless posturing imho but you do love the eu so I expect nothing less. I don't love it. I'm just not given to knee-jerk nationalism.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2021 13:04:25 GMT
Looking for a TIC moticon but not finding it.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 13:05:02 GMT
I did also point out that if the EU is wrong, it should back down. But that always gets overlooked.
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Post by michael on Jan 26, 2021 13:08:00 GMT
You did, if you believe the Peston account I'm sure you'd agree the EU have failed here. It's probably not a coincidence that the French vaccine they'd be pinning their hopes on was cancelled yesterday after trails demonstrated marginal efficacy.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 26, 2021 13:14:06 GMT
From Robert Peston:
I know certain parties always like to paint the UK in a negative light but we’re really not the bad guys here.
EDIT: Michael beat me to it. I take no pleasure in the EU’s fuck up, we’re talking about people’s lives. Plus we need COVID to be beaten everywhere if we’re going to get back to some semblance of normality.
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Post by michael on Jan 26, 2021 13:17:25 GMT
From Robert Peston: I know certain parties always like to paint the UK in a negative light but we’re really not the bad guys here. I think we follow the same people on Twitter.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 13:48:42 GMT
There was a relevant comment reported in The Time today from one Robert Yates, the director of the Global Health Programme at Chatham House, who told Times Radio that the prospect of vaccine nationalism was “extremely concerning”.
“I think the Conservative Party put out a tweet just a couple of weeks ago crowing that the UK has vaccinated more people than Italy, France, Germany and Spain combined,” he said.
“Now, I think we get the politics of this but this really is not fostering this idea of collaboration and one worries that [EU] measures like this are perhaps seen as retaliation.”
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Post by Alex on Jan 26, 2021 13:50:52 GMT
Totally agree with the last point. At no point is anyone on here celebrating the EU getting it wrong but are rightly irritated that they've chosen to put out the line that it is other peoples fault and to make unfounded accusations against AZ, the latest being that the vaccine has severely reduced efficacy in those over 65. A claim that was published in Bild but has since had to be hastily retracted.
I'm not going to start another Brexit debate, I think we've all had enough of that, but it isn't anti EU to point out how petty they've been since the transition period ended and to criticise them for trying to use Covid19 for political point scoring. The truckers having their lunch confiscated and the fishermen having their paperwork rejected because of missing full stops will blow over but this is a virus that is killing people on a mass scale and is not something that politicians of any side should be messing about over.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 13:51:28 GMT
I don’t condone in any way the notion that retaliation is justified or appropriate. But we do seem to have lost or abandoned the art of diplomacy. Politicians seem to forget that what they say to score domestic points can also be heard in other countries.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 13:52:17 GMT
And that applies across the board, and not just in the UK.
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Post by michael on Jan 26, 2021 13:57:53 GMT
I don't agree with that analysis at all. It's important to compare how countries are doing, it's not a race with each other but it is a race against time and it's a race we all need to win. I also don't think those comments have anything to do with the timing of the EU's sabre rattling, either. They're trying to cover their track as the French vaccine has failed. The EU have completely screwed up the vaccine process, the ventilator process and now they need to try to assert some sort of authority - particularly over the country that left the block and has demonstrated itself to be far more nimble for this exercise.
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Post by Roadrunner on Jan 26, 2021 14:08:31 GMT
Surely they could have helped out when you needed a car to carry all your kids and family? It’s cheaper for him to rent the hearse and main car when he needs it, so all he has is a Galaxy for body moving and a newish black E400d for visiting families, which can also be used as an extra funeral car. I like the thinking which chooses a 400d for a car to be used in 30 MPH funeral processions. Clearly a right-thinking sort of a chap.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 14:23:40 GMT
I don't agree with that analysis at all. It's important to compare how countries are doing, it's not a race with each other but it is a race against time and it's a race we all need to win. I also don't think those comments have anything to do with the timing of the EU's sabre rattling, either. They're trying to cover their track as the French vaccine has failed. The EU have completely screwed up the vaccine process, the ventilator process and now they need to try to assert some sort of authority - particularly over the country that left the block and has demonstrated itself to be far more nimble for this exercise. Certainly that's one way of looking at it. I'm waiting to see how our special strategy works out of giving millions one dose and then waiting for much longer than the manufacturer's recommended interval to give the second dose. I can certainly see the rationale - better for more to have some sort of immunity than for less to have more guaranteed immunity, and I'm sure the fact it enables good headlines is entirely coincidental. I just hope to God it's a gamble that works.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jan 26, 2021 14:37:33 GMT
I don't agree with that analysis at all. It's important to compare how countries are doing, it's not a race with each other but it is a race against time and it's a race we all need to win. I also don't think those comments have anything to do with the timing of the EU's sabre rattling, either. They're trying to cover their track as the French vaccine has failed. The EU have completely screwed up the vaccine process, the ventilator process and now they need to try to assert some sort of authority - particularly over the country that left the block and has demonstrated itself to be far more nimble for this exercise. Certainly that's one way of looking at it. I'm waiting to see how our special strategy works out of giving millions one dose and then waiting for much longer than the manufacturer's recommended interval to give the second dose. I can certainly see the rationale - better for more to have some sort of immunity than for less to have more guaranteed immunity, and I'm sure the fact it enables good headlines is entirely coincidental.I just hope to God it's a gamble that works. Cynical. Professor Whitty answered the reasoning behind this strategy at a recent press conference. It's been adopted by a number of countries now.
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Post by michael on Jan 26, 2021 14:44:14 GMT
The overwhelming weight of scientific evidence supports the delay of the second dose.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 14:47:00 GMT
I'm not alone in that. I've had a number of people say that to me unprompted, including my own mother.
And I think it's as much because this government has a trust problem, as much as it is people necessarily worrying about the actual strategy itself.
Like I say, I hope it works.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 14:47:42 GMT
The overwhelming weight of scientific evidence supports the delay of the second dose. That's a punchy statement. Have you actually had the scales out?
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Post by michael on Jan 26, 2021 14:54:56 GMT
I've seen the evidence that's been presented and who by. For contrast, the reported letter seen by the BBC from 'senior doctors' was written by the Doctors Unions, the BMA who have not commissioned any research in this area and are not expert.
There is a temptation by some with an axe to grind to think the government is fucking everything up. That may be true of some things, but with vaccination, the only exit from this, the UK government has smashed it out the park and we are lucky to benefit from it. Other countries could learn from us too.
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Post by Tim on Jan 26, 2021 15:20:43 GMT
I'm more astounded that Matt Hancock got something right than by any failings in the EU process......
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 15:48:25 GMT
I'm more astounded that Matt Hancock got something right than by any failings in the EU process...... That's a bit harsh. He's far from being the biggest incompetent in the cabinet and has easily the toughest gig. Be thankful that the Health Secretary isn't Gavin Williamson....or worse Field Martinet Patel.
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Post by Tim on Jan 26, 2021 15:54:59 GMT
I'm more astounded that Matt Hancock got something right than by any failings in the EU process...... That's a bit harsh. He's far from being the biggest incompetent in the cabinet and has easily the toughest gig. Be thankful that the Health Secretary isn't Gavin Williamson....or worse Field Martinet Patel. I just don't trust him, I remember him being interviewed when May was still PM and he was anti-Boris. Feels like he was bought off with a senior role. I suppose he's just a normal politician in that regard. As you say it could be worse.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 15:57:42 GMT
I've seen the evidence that's been presented and who by. For contrast, the reported letter seen by the BBC from 'senior doctors' was written by the Doctors Unions, the BMA who have not commissioned any research in this area and are not expert. There is a temptation by some with an axe to grind to think the government is fucking everything up. That may be true of some things, but with vaccination, the only exit from this, the UK government has smashed it out the park and we are lucky to benefit from it. Other countries could learn from us too. You've not answered my question. You said "overwhelming weight of scientific evidence" - could you provide details to back that statement up? I'm not saying you are wrong. But that kind of assertion needs corroborating if I am to buy it. Otherwise it's just opinion.
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Post by michael on Jan 26, 2021 16:01:35 GMT
It's an expression. But to dismiss your argument that jabs are counted this way to make the figures look good; they count them that way consistently across geographies so our figures look good however you cut it. The spanner in the works is when the Johnson&Johnson jab comes online as it's only one shot.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 16:02:05 GMT
That's a bit harsh. He's far from being the biggest incompetent in the cabinet and has easily the toughest gig. Be thankful that the Health Secretary isn't Gavin Williamson....or worse Field Martinet Patel. I just don't trust him, I remember him being interviewed when May was still PM and he was anti-Boris. Feels like he was bought off with a senior role. I suppose he's just a normal politician in that regard. As you say it could be worse. Never said I particularly liked him and yes he's a conspicuous ambitious opportunist whose principles can be flattened by the merest change in the political breeze. It's been widely speculated that he got health as a poisoned chalice for not being a true believer from the get-go.
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Post by Roadrunner on Jan 26, 2021 16:07:06 GMT
News out today:
Israel sees 60% drop in hospitalisations for age 60-plus 3 weeks after 1st shot. Full effects of Pfizer’s shots only kick in around a month after inoculation, but data from Israel shows there is a stark drop in infections even before that point.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 16:10:33 GMT
Sounded like an assertion of fact to me! Never mind. As I say, let's hope fate smiles on the gamble.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 26, 2021 16:14:16 GMT
News out today: Israel sees 60% drop in hospitalisations for age 60-plus 3 weeks after 1st shot. Full effects of Pfizer’s shots only kick in around a month after inoculation, but data from Israel shows there is a stark drop in infections even before that point. They also have a pretty strict lockdown in Israel and it was tightened further....three weeks ago. Not saying there is no correlation but let's not risk cherry-picking.
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