|
|
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 29, 2020 8:13:57 GMT
I suppose the manual owner will still be driving with a smile on his face while the PDK owner will be driving a loaner while his is in for repairs.
|
|
|
|
Post by Eff One on Apr 29, 2020 8:20:31 GMT
I drove manual and PDK back-to-back on the Porsche test track a couple of years ago and the PDK is the one to have. You can override the auto shifts and whatever you think you're doing with a manual the electronics are far better to a level that is off the scale. Don't mistake PDK for a slush-box - it's doing all the stuff a manual does without ever missing a bite point and if you use it on a track it won't ever be in the wrong gear if all the systems are in place. Also I was gritting my teeth doing launch-control with the PDK: massive revs and a clutch dump. Then the instructor told me that the car I was in had done several hundred of them and never failed. There's a reason that PDK was a costly option. Ask people like Mansell and his generation that swapped from manual boxes to flappy paddles in F1 what was better. I don't dispute for a second that PDK is faster and if I were racing, I'd want it or something like it. For ease of use and point to point speed, a manual can't compete. But that's missing the point for me. Driving enjoyment is about using and improving the various skills, and changing my own gears is intrinsic to that. So for as long as it's on offer, I'll always choose a manual, especially in a sports car. |
|
|
|
Post by PetrolEd on Apr 29, 2020 8:57:27 GMT
I drove manual and PDK back-to-back on the Porsche test track a couple of years ago and the PDK is the one to have. You can override the auto shifts and whatever you think you're doing with a manual the electronics are far better to a level that is off the scale. Don't mistake PDK for a slush-box - it's doing all the stuff a manual does without ever missing a bite point and if you use it on a track it won't ever be in the wrong gear if all the systems are in place. Also I was gritting my teeth doing launch-control with the PDK: massive revs and a clutch dump. Then the instructor told me that the car I was in had done several hundred of them and never failed. There's a reason that PDK was a costly option. Ask people like Mansell and his generation that swapped from manual boxes to flappy paddles in F1 what was better. I don't dispute for a second that PDK is faster and if I were racing, I'd want it or something like it. For ease of use and point to point speed, a manual can't compete. But that's missing the point for me. Driving enjoyment is about using and improving the various skills, and changing my own gears is intrinsic to that. So for as long as it's on offer, I'll always choose a manual, especially in a sports car. 100% this. Its the stuff you pride yourself on as an enthusiast that makes us different from non car people. Its not just things like perfecting hell and toe and all the other queefisms, its general car maneuvering that makes it evident who knows what they're doing and those that dont. I'd never ever use anything like park assist where the car parallel parks for you, why, cause I pride myself on being able to do it quicker and better then the computer. It might come to a time when I'm 80 and I want the car to do it but don't see the need now. With a manual I think I can do it better then an auto on the road. Do I welcome ABS, hell yes, why because its better then I can ever be and doesn't interfere until I've ballsed up and its the same with some stability systems. Ultimately its down to the car you buy, no way would I get a manual 7 series, SUV, GT etc as they don't suit the car. I was looking very closely at an Alfa Giulia QV before the Covid which of course comes as an auto only so I'm not against them but if you were to point me in the direction of an M2 It'd be in manual flavour all day long. |
|
|
|
Post by Martin on Apr 29, 2020 9:11:03 GMT
I don't dispute for a second that PDK is faster and if I were racing, I'd want it or something like it. For ease of use and point to point speed, a manual can't compete. But that's missing the point for me. Driving enjoyment is about using and improving the various skills, and changing my own gears is intrinsic to that. So for as long as it's on offer, I'll always choose a manual, especially in a sports car. 100% this. Its the stuff you pride yourself on as an enthusiast that makes us different from non car people. Its not just things like perfecting hell and toe and all the other queefisms, its general car maneuvering that makes it evident who knows what they're doing and those that dont. I'd never ever use anything like park assist where the car parallel parks for you, why, cause I pride myself on being able to do it quicker and better then the computer. It might come to a time when I'm 80 and I want the car to do it but don't see the need now. With a manual I think I can do it better then an auto on the road. Do I welcome ABS, hell yes, why because its better then I can ever be and doesn't interfere until I've ballsed up and its the same with some stability systems. Ultimately its down to the car you buy, no way would I get a manual 7 series, SUV, GT etc as they don't suit the car. I was looking very closely at an Alfa Giulia QV before the Covid which of course comes as an auto only so I'm not against them but if you were to point me in the direction of an M2 It'd be in manual flavour all day long. Can't argue with any of that! |
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Apr 29, 2020 10:35:54 GMT
I'm thinking of getting an auto when the 320 gets replaced but part of that is down to looking at 340s where there are manuals but possibly only about 1% of the cars on the market.
Having said that I enjoy the manual, even in a 2 litre diesel commuter car like the 320.
There's a set of corners near me - John will know them, they're 3/4 mile out of Cupar on the A913.
You approach at a decent speed (lets say it might be 100 if you were in a 370Z and there were no limits), there's a left hand kink that requires a dab then 60-70 yards before a 3rd gear 90 right leading into another 3rd gear left.
Getting all the turning, braking and gear changing done right between the kink and the right hander is a feeling of absolute joy that I can't imagine being replicated with some flappy paddles.
|
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Apr 29, 2020 11:34:11 GMT
I'm with Ed. I'd want a manual 911. Dailies can have auto boxes but toys should be manuals.
Whether I'd actually buy a manual 911 is another matter. My wife would love a Porsche and there's no way we could have one unless she could also drive it. However in my experience, they can have quite heavy transmissions (at least the older cars) so, while my wife drives a manual and prefers a manual most of the time, she'd struggle with anything too "manly". For example, she used to find the manual transmission in the M135i a bit tough and prefers the auto in the 440i in that respect.
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin on Apr 29, 2020 11:45:14 GMT
I'm with Ed. I'd want a manual 911. Dailies can have auto boxes but toys should be manuals. Whether I'd actually buy a manual 911 is another matter. My wife would love a Porsche and there's no way we could have one unless she could also drive it. However in my experience, they can have quite heavy transmissions (at least the older cars) so, while my wife drives a manual and prefers a manual most of the time, she'd struggle with anything too "manly". For example, she used to find the manual transmission in the M135i a bit tough and prefers the auto in the 440i in that respect. The clutch in our Boxster was quite a lot heavier than a regular hatchback, but it wasn't too bad. Lindsay managed fine with it for 4 years and was pretty adamant that her next car would be a manual when we had to change, not because she wasn't used to an auto as she drove the 535d regularly, but because she enjoyed changing gear and the feeling of being more in control. I made sure the test drive in an R was with the DSG gearbox and she was happier with it than expected and just over 18 months later, wouldn't be in a rush to go back to a manual. I've not driven a manual 911, so don't know whether it would be harder work than a Boxster or not. |
|
|
|
Post by PetrolEd on Apr 29, 2020 11:53:30 GMT
The GT4 was heavy but I drove that into Central London on a few occasions and never suffered to much. In fact my old 130i had a far harder clutch to modulate. My old 2.7 Cayman clutch was a joy to use but then I had come out of a 993 which was like a gym workout.
Edited to add, for some reason I've always struggled with BMW clutches, don't know if I find the last quarter of travel over springy but I have been known to bounce down the road in a number of BMW. And I've tried all manor or BM's from E30 to F30
|
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Apr 29, 2020 12:23:59 GMT
Against expectations the clutch on the 370Z was pretty easy, no heavier than most hatchbacks I think.
BMW clutch pedals have a loooooong travel, it's one of the other reasons at looking for an auto version so Mrs Tim is more comfortable driving it.
|
|
|
|
Post by franki68 on Apr 29, 2020 12:26:31 GMT
No, you're right about the gearlever, I think we've become used to seeing an ultramodern centre console like that with at most a tiny auto selector. As you say its good of them to offer it at no extra cost given that autos are usually a £2k+ option where manual is standard fit. Aren't manuals also significantly lighter, I have a feeling the latest EVO or CAR made a comment in one of their tests about a DSG being 60 or 70kg heavier than the standard fit manual in something. I know the gt3 pdk is 17kg heavier . |
|
|
|
Post by franki68 on Apr 29, 2020 12:47:51 GMT
Points people forget about when discussing pdk.Not sure on the normal cars but on gt3s the manual box has 'flat shifting' ,in essence the computer is doing a large part of the job for you,thus removing a large part of what a Manual box is supposed to give you.
With pdk you can manually change gear if you so wish,the difference is you are not using your left foot to do so,but you have full control of the shifts .
Not sure with the 992 but with the 991 gt3 the car was actually designed around a pdk box.
When I bought the first pdk car I was worried after 30 years of driving manuals I would miss the involvement,but having now run two pdk cars for myself and one for the missus I would not consider a manual ever again.The gt3 is so fast I enjoy not having to take my hands off the wheel,and tbh if you want old school involvement,buy an old car .
There is some weird nonsense that a 'real ' driver will only drive a manual,but let me put it this way,when polled about useage pdk owners use their cars far more than the manual owners in general,so who is getting more enjoyment and value out of their purchase ?
Ultimately it is down to personal preference though,there is no right answer or wrong answer ,I enjoy the gt3 more than any other car I have owned ,the vast majority of which have been manuals,and before you ask I have driven the manual gt3 and absolutely no way would I change to one,but it is a great manual box (better than the gt4 ).
|
|
|
|
Post by chipbutty on Apr 29, 2020 14:51:11 GMT
I'd go for the manual - I really miss having a manual and enjoy driving them whenever I get the chance.
These types of cars sound better with a manual and I find the additional interaction more enjoyable - especially when just mooching about or driving briskly (i.e, not wellying the nubblies off it).
Getting caught in traffic occasionally is just not a factor for me and this would not put me off using one every day.
However, what would put me off is excessive road noise. As has been mentioned by Martin, the 992 Harry M drove suffered terribly from road roar and the exhaust note was not particularly attractive.
I like loud and obnoxious sounding cars - but that has to come from the powertrain and not from crappy refinement.
|
|
|
|
Post by franki68 on Apr 30, 2020 7:30:07 GMT
I'd go for the manual - I really miss having a manual and enjoy driving them whenever I get the chance. These types of cars sound better with a manual and I find the additional interaction more enjoyable - especially when just mooching about or driving briskly (i.e, not wellying the nubblies off it). Getting caught in traffic occasionally is just not a factor for me and this would not put me off using one every day. However, what would put me off is excessive road noise. As has been mentioned by Martin, the 992 Harry M drove suffered terribly from road roar and the exhaust note was not particularly attractive. I like loud and obnoxious sounding cars - but that has to come from the powertrain and not from crappy refinement. The 992 I drove was the most refined 911 I have driven ,I don’t recall it suffering from excessive road roar. |
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Apr 30, 2020 9:09:40 GMT
I'd go for the manual - I really miss having a manual and enjoy driving them whenever I get the chance. In an F-Type that doesn't surprise me remotely. But apart from the occasional drive on an Alpine pass, I've never wanted my 440i to have a manual box - don't think it would suit it. Similarly, I can't imagine our Fiat 500 being nearly as much fun if it had an automatic box of any description. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2020 9:20:16 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Big Blue on Apr 30, 2020 9:32:07 GMT
But apart from the occasional drive on an Alpine pass, I've never wanted my 440i to have a manual box - don't think it would suit it. Similarly, I can't imagine our Fiat 500 being nearly as much fun if it had an automatic box of any description. Alas W2.1's aversity to manuals means that the Mini Cooper is an auto and due to the lack of desire to spend too much on a 1,000 mile a year car it's not the automated manual of he newer ones. I always need it to be in sport mode with sport box. |
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on Apr 30, 2020 10:15:55 GMT
But apart from the occasional drive on an Alpine pass, I've never wanted my 440i to have a manual box - don't think it would suit it. Similarly, I can't imagine our Fiat 500 being nearly as much fun if it had an automatic box of any description. Alas W2.1's aversity to manuals means that the Mini Cooper is an auto and due to the lack of desire to spend too much on a 1,000 mile a year car it's not the automated manual of he newer ones. I always need it to be in sport mode with sport box. Sounds like my mother's Countryman, which has a 6spd auto box which isn't a patch on the 8spd ZF in my car. |
|
|
|
Post by Martin on Apr 30, 2020 10:23:12 GMT
Traditional automatics work better as the engine size increases. I used to think that was down to the torque and the way they're set up to keep the revs down as much as possible, but they seem to work better on a mid size petrol engine than a smaller diesel (e.g. 340i vs 320d as I've driven both), so I don't know what the technical reason is.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2020 11:03:05 GMT
Sara had an auto 206 with a 1.6 petrol. Horrible bloody thing, from junctions or lights it had some of the ability of a slug and could not get out of its own way. Several scary moments when the thing lumbered into a spot someone else thought was going to be empty.
|
|
|
|
Post by garry on May 1, 2020 10:51:31 GMT
My 991.1 has a manual box. I love it and wouldn’t want to change it. I looked at a 992 and one thing that put me off was no manual option at the time. There’s nothing like that feeling of getting it ‘right’ on a good country road. I completely accept that Pdk is quicker.
As for road noise, my car is very refined (for a sports car). I’ve got the sports exhaust and panoramic roof. The engine noise above 5k is thrilling and is the stand out noise. On a gentle drive, roof closed, sports exhaust off, it’s a completely comfy place to be. The 992 I drove was more refined ( perhaps a little too gt for my tastes). If I needed to do a 200 mile motorway run I wouldn’t choose the 911, but it wouldn’t be a remotely unpleasant car to use for that type of journey. I could easily live with a 911 as my only car if I only needed two seats.
|
|
|
|
Post by Roadsterstu on May 3, 2020 10:41:24 GMT
It's almost a badge of honour, now, a manual gearbox in a sea of dual clutch, paddle shift, farty autos. I'd admire anyone who bought a manual for keeping the skill alive. Even more if they could double declutch and heel and toe. (Which I can't).
|
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on May 3, 2020 12:22:53 GMT
It's horses for courses, to utter a banality.
If I lived in village England and commuted to work, with lots of opportunities for real driving, I'd have a manual. It's what I prefer - I've owned 21 cars over 23 years, and only four of them have been automatics (a Mk2 Golf (bought cheap as a stopgap when I was a student), the 500E, the M5 and my current GC).
But I don't. I live in the middle of our biggest city and most of my driving outside of said city is on motorways. So a well-programmed, slick modern auto with paddle-shift functionality like the 8spd ZF in my GC was a no-brainer this time around.
|
|
|
|
Post by franki68 on May 3, 2020 13:19:55 GMT
It's almost a badge of honour, now, a manual gearbox in a sea of dual clutch, paddle shift, farty autos. I'd admire anyone who bought a manual for keeping the skill alive. Even more if they could double declutch and heel and toe. (Which I can't). It's a useless skill though now,its like spinning a basketball on your finger. |
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on May 3, 2020 13:42:53 GMT
It's almost a badge of honour, now, a manual gearbox in a sea of dual clutch, paddle shift, farty autos. I'd admire anyone who bought a manual for keeping the skill alive. Even more if they could double declutch and heel and toe. (Which I can't). It's a useless skill though now,its like spinning a basketball on your finger. A skill is not useless if you enjoy it. We have a top-of-the-range digital Yamaha piano. It can play itself. But that is hardly the point. |
|
|
|
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 3, 2020 15:07:48 GMT
It's almost a badge of honour, now, a manual gearbox in a sea of dual clutch, paddle shift, farty autos. I'd admire anyone who bought a manual for keeping the skill alive. Even more if they could double declutch and heel and toe. (Which I can't). It's a useless skill though now,its like spinning a basketball on your finger. I’ve always wanted to be able to do that but I wasn’t tall enough to be a basketball player. |
|
|
|
Post by franki68 on May 3, 2020 16:54:57 GMT
It's a useless skill though now,its like spinning a basketball on your finger. A skill is not useless if you enjoy it. We have a top-of-the-range digital Yamaha piano. It can play itself. But that is hardly the point. The flat shifting in a Porsche removes most of the skill I found ,no rev matching needed etc , |
|
|
|
Post by PetrolEd on May 4, 2020 8:28:54 GMT
It's almost a badge of honour, now, a manual gearbox in a sea of dual clutch, paddle shift, farty autos. I'd admire anyone who bought a manual for keeping the skill alive. Even more if they could double declutch and heel and toe. (Which I can't). This is not the fault of the driver in a lot of cars unfortunatley. Poorly spaced peddles, over servo'd brakes, built in safety systems which means you can't use the brake and accelerator at the same time all make the job of heel and toe a nuisance in some cars. It was nearly impossible in my old Gti. Double clutching however is a rather pointless task in anything I guess from the 50's onwards. James is your man for that and might be a skill still required in the Standard. |
|
|
|
Post by Roadrunner on May 4, 2020 9:01:21 GMT
It's almost a badge of honour, now, a manual gearbox in a sea of dual clutch, paddle shift, farty autos. I'd admire anyone who bought a manual for keeping the skill alive. Even more if they could double declutch and heel and toe. (Which I can't). This is not the fault of the driver in a lot of cars unfortunatley. Poorly spaced peddles, over servo'd brakes, built in safety systems which means you can't use the brake and accelerator at the same time all make the job of heel and toe a nuisance in some cars. It was nearly impossible in my old Gti. Double clutching however is a rather pointless task in anything I guess from the 50's onwards. James is your man for that and might be a skill still required in the Standard. I learned to dive on crash gearboxes, so double de-clutching is something I instinctively do when in a manual car. Pointless and even a hinderance in a modern car, but essential in the Standard. |
|
|
|
Post by johnc on May 4, 2020 9:50:56 GMT
I learned to dive on crash gearboxes, so double de-clutching is something I instinctively do when in a manual car. Pointless and even a hinderance in a modern car, but essential in the Standard. Also preferable in a Caterham as you arrive to do the donut at PalmerSport. |
|
|
|
Post by racingteatray on May 4, 2020 10:17:36 GMT
This is not the fault of the driver in a lot of cars unfortunatley. Poorly spaced peddles, over servo'd brakes, built in safety systems which means you can't use the brake and accelerator at the same time all make the job of heel and toe a nuisance in some cars. It was nearly impossible in my old Gti. Double clutching however is a rather pointless task in anything I guess from the 50's onwards. James is your man for that and might be a skill still required in the Standard. I learned to dive on crash gearboxes, so double de-clutching is something I instinctively do when in a manual car. Pointless and even a hinderance in a modern car, but essential in the Standard. I learned to double-declutch on my father's 1965 Fiat 500 when I first had my driving licence. Been years since I last drove it though, so no idea whether I still could master it. |
|
