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Post by Tim on May 21, 2020 15:36:09 GMT
Mrs Tim works in assessment at a uni and has been flat out for weeks (actually since she went there 2 years ago but there's been no let up recently). She's currently putting together a variety of exams, most of which will have 3 sittings as a result of the students now being scattered around the world having gone on Spring Break at the moment lockdown was declared!
Tomorrow she's invigilating one exam, first sitting is 9:30am, second 5:30pm and third 1:30am on Saturday.
If I left her to it she would be working 12 hours a day for at least 6 days a week and most of her colleagues are in the same boat.
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Post by Big Blue on May 21, 2020 15:37:39 GMT
Our youngest goes back on the 8th June. The schools are spreading years R,1 and 6 across space for R,1,2,3,4,5,6 so there's no shortage of space. The other years (2,3,4,5) are being taught with full streamed syllabus on Google Meet. As to moving the school year - fuck off, bluntly. As a parent that's worked through the whole of the horror of home schooling I want the summer holiday to be as late as possible so we get even a remote chance of going somewhere that is not our house and has a pool / sea.
Re: work during the furlough period, you can't put yourself into the mindset of others, only witness their actions and decide yourself. Union leaders want their members to stay away so that they (the leaders) can continue to all the shots (I keep repeating that they want the working class to stay downtrodden more than the most ardent capitalist as they benefit from this position the most) and are using the "safety card" to make it seem reasonable to stay away. The safety card was often the biggest cause of over running works on the railway because if some team leader fancied a night down the pub they'd just tell the watchman to stay home or (on the underground) distract the CRID inspector so they didn't actually witness the power being shut off. This is most painful because there are a larger percentage of employees, unionised and non-unionised, that just want to get on with it and accept that life comes with risks (but risks bring rewards) but they are "led" by complete arseholes with a point to prove. It would be amusing if Starmer told the unions to stick their money up their arse and got massive funding from some commercially and socially responsible source.
I saw that some union gob-shite was saying that "why is it the workers that take the pain of a downturn?" when Rolls-Royce announced a huge lay-off. What's he expecting? No managers will be canned? The business continues racking up huge losses to keep them all on the books until it's so bad EVERYONE is out without any redundancy above stat? They keep churning out engines to lie in a field and rot?
This is the mentality: we're the workers and it's your job to give us work no matter what the need for work is. Of course it's easy for me to think like that so I have sympathy for workers that are fucked over every 7-10 years or so but the bollocks that comes out of the mouths of union leaders needs to be called out by some workers so they get the message that they're cunts.
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Post by scouse on May 21, 2020 15:55:33 GMT
Do you have to be in a union to be a teacher? You dont have to be, it's just very strongly encouraged, usually along the lines of 'if a kid/parent/other teacher ever makes a false allegation, we'll be there to spport you' or 'if you need some sort of suport against management' type of bollocks. When in reality they'd be the first to turn away until you've cleared yourself. Personally I reckon teachers would be better off with some sort of Professional Indemnity insurance.
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Post by ChrisM on May 21, 2020 16:17:17 GMT
As a parent that's worked through the whole of the horror of home schooling I want the summer holiday to be as late as possible so we get even a remote chance of going somewhere that is not our house and has a pool / sea. I can see your point; I've also been working (albeit from home almost all the time) and putting in longer hours than if I were at my "place of work" although my kids are past school age. I would sure appreciate a holiday somewhere far from home later this year but I think we have to face up to reality and be prepared to accept that we may just have to write off 2020 as a year with no hols. Yesterday younger daughter was talking to one of her old schoolfriends who lives just round the corner from us; she's in a management position at a nearby hotel and has been furloughed until at least the end of June...... despite them being the closest hotel to our local huge hospital they are not open at all, not even to support health workers being brought in from elsewhere. Apparently there are currently only around 50 hotels open across the entire country for essential key workers in healthcare who have to work away from home.
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Post by Alex on May 21, 2020 19:28:57 GMT
Do you have to be in a union to be a teacher? When you are a science teacher yes because it provides you with insurance cover should some stupid kid fuck around during a practical and get acid in his face or burn his eyebrows off with a bunsen!
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Post by LandieMark on May 21, 2020 19:36:03 GMT
If you are an employee, surely that's covered by Employers liability insurance?!
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Post by Alex on May 21, 2020 19:42:01 GMT
Regarding the cancellation of the school holidays, youd have to pay teachers a shit load more because their contract doesn't cover the holiday period.
My wife's been working solidly each day reworking all her lessons so that they can be put online as well as recording them on a piece of software which her school got for free therefore it has no editing function thus she often gets 15mins in when one of the girls opens the door or our next door neighbour fires up his mower and she has to start all over!
My eldest, being autistic, has started going back to school of her own accord as they are open for SEN children and as several of her other band of misfits are going in too shes so much happier. The distancing works fine as there's only about 20 kids.
My youngest is year 6 and I cant wait for her to get back to school on 1st June because shes doing fuck all right now and needs to start doing some work. We spoke to her teacher on the phone and he said most of her classmates had also given up. Were from an affluent rural area so it's not like they're all deprived kids either. Shes in a mixed class of year 5/6 so there will be about 10 of them in a class that normally has 25 with plenty of space to distance from another.
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Post by Alex on May 21, 2020 19:42:54 GMT
If you are an employee, surely that's covered by Employers liability insurance?! Not if the school turn round and say its not their fault the teacher didn't supervise the kids properly!
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Post by LandieMark on May 21, 2020 19:45:16 GMT
Legally, I still don't think they would have a leg to stand on. The contract is with the school, not the teacher.
Supply or freelance, then yes, but as a full time employee, no.
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Post by Alex on May 21, 2020 19:55:40 GMT
Legally, I still don't think they would have a leg to stand on. The contract is with the school, not the teacher. Supply or freelance, then yes, but as a full time employee, no. It is covered by the school but the school isn't covered if the parent decides to pursue the teacher because they felt it was the teachers fault that an accident happened such as not giving the correct instructions or failing to follow school guidance on supervision.
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Post by LandieMark on May 21, 2020 20:01:55 GMT
I am not a lawyer, but it's still the school's problem IMO. Example: Gritter driver doesn't follow council guidence on how to drive gritter and wipes out a street of cars with his plough. Council is liable and that's who you sue, not the gritter driver. These are lawyers and no mention is made of being able to sue teacher individually. www.daslaw.co.uk/blog/educational-negligence-claimsThis sort of insurance boils my piss a little because I think they are praying on people being scared of being sued knowing that there is no chance of liability.
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Post by Alex on May 21, 2020 20:48:52 GMT
Maybe you're right Mark but I think she got a pretty cheap rate when she did her teacher training which they've kept low due to her being part time.
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Post by johnc on May 22, 2020 7:21:46 GMT
I don't profess to be an expert on it but I believe that teachers normally join the Union so that they get some protection if their employer comes after them following an incident in the classroom.
I totally agree with BB's comments above re Union leaders. The Mum of one of the girls who works for me is a teaching union rep: I was having a chat with my employee about how children (hers in particular) were going to make up for the time lost at school etc and I suggested that they could take their summer holidays now and go back to school a month earlier for the winter term. She told me there was no way the Union would agree to this and she had already had an argument with her Mum about it. Her daughter takes her Nat 5's (O levels, GCSE's or whatever they are called now) next year and she feels she won't have the time next year to learn her Nat 5 course and also catch up with the lost 3 months from this year which the Nat 5 course uses as a foundation.
Everyone loses as far as I see it unless there are compromises.
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Post by Tim on May 22, 2020 8:33:43 GMT
I nearly had a big argument years ago while playing golf with a striking firefighter - they were out for quite a few weeks I remember - and when the subject of his fall in income came up I asked him how much of his £80k salary (it was a good few years ago) he thought the union leader was losing.
I already knew the answer was none as obviously the leaders salary is paid by the union, not the employer. It wasn't well received.
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Post by scouse on May 22, 2020 9:06:17 GMT
Regarding the cancellation of the school holidays, youd have to pay teachers a shit load more because their contract doesn't cover the holiday period. Forgot about that. Sefton's teacher contract is actually for 29 hours per week. Even at the moment, Mrs Scouse is generally still working one way or another long after 3.15. Normally only stops when i close the laptop at 5pm. In normal circumstances shes gets into school around 7.50, very rarely leaves before 5, generally puts in at least another 90 minutes of an evening and at least 4 hours of a sunday. Unfortunately a huge amount of this extra work generally has fuck all to do with the kids and revolves around spurious paperwork and statistics for OFSTED.
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Post by alf on May 22, 2020 9:51:13 GMT
When we look at the political landscape, Unions are a big worry to me. Yes if the Tories were in opposition they might be doing the same hyocritical stuff the current opposition are doing, bleating about everything then moaning about U-turns on the occasion anyone listens to them. But they don't have the Unions behind them. Unions are a huge undemocratic powerbase. In many professions you pretty much have to be a member, and then your financial contributions and "vote" are handled by others. They have almost complete control over one of the two parties than have between them governed the UK for 100 years. Their top echelons are often made up of people like Ken Livingstone - professional complainers with extreme views and axes to grind, and often pretty horrific individuals (being a holocaust denier in his case). They wield huge power with only a tiny fraction of the accountability of a senior politician, who would not get away with the sort of online comments many Union officials make on topics like the holocaust, Jews in general, rich people, white people and so on.
It is great to see that Labour is no longer quite so in thrall to either the idiots at Momentum, or - hopefully - the Unions, but you still can't get anywhere in the party without Union backing. Getting some of the big 5 Unions behind you is critical to becoming party leader for a start. Then they control much of the party's income, indeed they founded it.
They have a very big political influence in the UK by themselves and it gives Labour two bites of the cherry. If the public vote for something, be it an election, referendum, or whatever, and Labour don't like the outcome, they can oppose it directly politically but also get the Unions to speak "on behalf of" millions of members. They can be all over the news, they can strike and bring misery to the rest of us, they can basicall disregard democracy and carry out a guerrilla campaign of intimidation and direct action. They abuse this power a lot - it is proven that jobs were striking causes the most general misery (like train drivers) are disproportionately well paid as that power is abused regularly. Now I fear they will be rubbing their hands with glee at the opportunity to use the epidemic to drag their heels about everything and anything to try and discredit the government that was overwhelmingly voted for. I didn't vote for them, but they are in charge and should be allowed to get on with it.
It looks like I'm not the only one who doesn't think that is fair!
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Post by Tim on May 22, 2020 10:11:11 GMT
I agree with all that. To be even handed though you have to look at some of the contributors to Tory Party funds (and I'm sure Labour - who can forget 'Bernie's bung' - and the LimpDems have some crackers too).
While I'm sure there are a lot of nice people a few clearly aren't e.g. some hedge fund bods that have been fully behind Brexit while shorting UK listed companies in the knowledge that their share price would fall in the event of Brexit, has anyone ever asked them what their private views are compared with their overwhelming desire to add a few more £millions to their existing billions?
If you had a spare £50k you could donate it to the Tories and get a seat next to BoJo at some event and tell him whatever you wanted. If you promised to add another few £000k do you think he would tell you to get lost or would he at least give you a hearing? In that instance you, as an unelected individual, would potentially have some sway directly on the PM, not just the leader of the opposition.
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Post by chipbutty on May 22, 2020 12:52:31 GMT
I hope the Government learn to grow a pair and quickly – they need to stop worrying about their public opinion now and think more about what public opinion will be when the next elections come around if they don’t sort this mess out asap.
Not surprised, but still thoroughly disappointed that elements of this country are so overwhelming political that they would seek to make this situation even worse than it is just to score points against the Government. Which makes it all the more surprising that Bojo and crew bother pandering to these fuckwits, they just look weaker and give aforementioned fuckwits more encouragement to be more fuckwitty.
With regards to the schools, the medical observations and evidence from other countries who have sent schools back is clear – the risks to all are miniscule, so be reasonable and crack on.
If the unions want to play silly buggers, then fine – if you don’t go back to work and/or won’t teach on line, then you don’t get paid.
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Post by johnc on May 22, 2020 13:28:50 GMT
.....and if schools don't go back many parents won't be able to return to work especially since Grandparents are a common source of holiday childminding and they are supposed to be locked up tight.
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Post by racingteatray on May 22, 2020 13:51:50 GMT
Good piece on this in The Times today entitled: "Boris Johnson’s idols can teach him a lesson or two - Pericles and Churchill knew how vital it was to communicate effectively with their people in times of national crisis" by Philip Collins.
"There is no job description for the role of prime minister. The closest we have is a Cabinet Office paper called Function of the Prime Minister and his Staff which dates back to 1947 and has probably never been shown to a living premier. Its definition includes making ministerial and official appointments, chairing cabinet meetings, and managing diplomatic and national security crises. At no point does it mention the vital prime ministerial task of being a teacher. With his ratings beginning to fall and no sign that he is in charge, this is the part that Boris Johnson needs to learn to play.
There is no mention in the 1947 note of political strategy or communication. When the constitutional historian Peter Hennessy updated it in 2011 he added a section on articulating a public message, which was a strange omission in 1947. It would have been a strange omission back in Athens in the 5th century BC because the role of teacher-in-chief has been intrinsic to politics since its earliest days. As a classicist, Mr Johnson will be aware of the virtues of Pericles, the great Athenian statesman, and of his associate Protagoras, most notable among the sophists who taught the skill of public explanation. And Mr Johnson will be keenly aware too that, in the history of British politics, there was no more devoted student of these orators than Winston Churchill.
Mr Johnson’s inadequacy as teacher-in-chief has been cruelly exposed by the dispute with the teachers. The question of when children should return to primary schools is one on which rational and public-spirited people can disagree. That is because there are four sets of risks and your view of the correct course will depend on which risk is uppermost in your mind. There is the safety risk, of infection, transmission and the suffering of illness. There is the logistical risk that reconfiguring schools to observe social distancing is not easy, especially for Reception and Year 1 children aged between 4 and 6. There is the economic risk that parents, and as a consequence their children, will suffer financially if child-minding duties prevent them going back to work. And then there is the educational risk, set out starkly this week in a report by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, that the poorest children will be receiving the least online support and suffering the sharpest reversal in development while their schools are closed.
For all the usual cops-and-robbers of the government versus the unions, this is a complex question which, like all political questions, has to be reduced to a yes or no answer. It is the job of the teacher-in-chief to explain to a sceptical profession and nation why, and on what basis, the government has come to its view. He needs to concede the risks rather than deny them, and then explain, with evidence from other nations as well as reasonable inferences from government scientists, why the balance of risks means that a return to school will be safe and better for children than staying at home. If we had an education secretary of greater authority than Gavin Williamson then perhaps the task could be delegated but we don’t so it requires the presence of, and a calm explanation from, the prime minister. Who promptly disappeared.
The predicament needs a more sophisticated response than this, and Mr Johnson will recognise the etymology. The sophists were a band of Ancient Greek philosophers who insisted that the art of human affairs could be communicated and taught. They were also the first thinkers to argue that virtue could be acquired, not merely inherited, if people were exposed to wisdom expressed in speech. The best known of the sophists was Protagoras who, in his “Great Speech”, argued, in good lockdown style, that the essence of good citizenship lies in justice and self-restraint. Protagoras was employed by Pericles, whose “Funeral Oration” is the first recorded attempt by a politician to bind together a democratic electorate in a time of crisis, in his case a war that was going wrong.
Mr Johnson’s hero, Winston Churchill, faced the same task. Churchill’s speeches in the House of Commons in the summer of 1940 are best known for their dramatic flourishes: finest hour, fight them on the beaches, and so on. In fact, the substance of each one lies in Churchill’s ability to explain the state of battle. The speeches are full of detail and, though the tone is necessarily optimistic, most of the details point towards pessimism. Churchill took most of his political lifetime to learn that inspiration has to be earned but, by 1940, he had got the classical structure right. His speeches are a lesson in the risks and trials of the past and present which then justify optimism about the future. Failing in his duty as a teacher, Mr Johnson’s optimism sounds perfunctory at best, hollow at worst.
The release from lockdown is going to be torturous and fractious if Mr Johnson does not find it within himself to explain the situation better to an anxious public. For the first time this week more people said they disapproved of the government’s handling of Covid-19 than said they approved. Mr Johnson’s personal ratings are falling as Sir Keir Starmer’s are rising. The prime minister, who has been rattled by the Labour leader, tried a new aggressive tactic against Sir Keir in the House of Commons this week. If he could learn how to be a teacher he could try a different and quite unusual tactic. When Sir Keir asks him a question, he could answer it. He could show mastery of the detail, an appreciation of the risks, an emphatic desire to decide and act. In short, he could cast the Labour leader as a man who is very good at questions, like the pupil, while he is a man who is very good at answers, like the teacher.
The best recent exemplar of this method is Barack Obama who proved, very much like Mr Johnson, that he was good at electoral politics but who, as soon as he won the White House, dialled down the poetry and governed in more sedate language. The common criticism of President Obama — that he turned into a law professor — was in fact high praise in disguise. Ronald Reagan had the same quality in a different way, with a gift for American vernacular, a reassuring personality and a ready wit. There is more than one way to teach a lesson but no way of avoiding the responsibility. It is the key part of the job description."
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 14:28:10 GMT
That is about the best piece I have ever seen on the topic.
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Post by garry on May 22, 2020 14:29:34 GMT
I hope the Government learn to grow a pair and quickly – they need to stop worrying about their public opinion now and think more about what public opinion will be when the next elections come around if they don’t sort this mess out asap. Agreed. But they’ve painted themselves into a corner. They’ve let sentiment/hype take hold on a multitude of issues and it’s going to be difficult to reel back in: They’ve promoted a ‘directed by the science and evidence’ narrative as if there’s a single truth (helpful to get everyone locked down) when in reality there was only ever scientific opinion and hypothesis (Lockdown would have been harder to achieve if they’d said ‘This guy has a theory that 500k people will die, but this guy thinks it’s no different to flu’). We’ve now got unions saying that they too will be directed by the science. All a union boss has to say to a scientist is ‘can you guarantee my members will be safe’ and we’ll stay locked down forever with unions saying ‘we too are directed by science and evidence’. They need to take back control and make it clear that science is ONE of the inputs they’ll take as they reignite the economy. They’ve been front and centre of the fear campaign that made lockdown very effective and is making any attempt to unlock almost impossible. Lots of people are in fear because they were told to be very afraid. Johnson needs to be out there building a ‘ready to reignite’ message and be on the news every day visiting factories and shops that are leading the re-ignition. He needs to drive the media narrative so they’ve got more interesting things to talk about than ‘Here’s the widow of a fit and healthy man left devastated by his untimely death IT COULD BE YOU!!’ They’ve let ‘Our NHS’ develop a cult-like following that’s going to be tricky to manage when the dust settles. At the moment telling the country that the NHS isn’t getting extra cash would be like telling god botherers than Jesus can only have 11 disciples. They need to separate in the public mind ’Our NHS’ from doctors and nurses so that they can deal with the NHS without being branded as heartless tory bastards. They need to get public bodies and officials back in line. When Johnson announced easing of lockdown there was no confusion. It got confusing when police forces and local councils tried to limit those easing measures. Police forces should not be taking to twitter to undermine the government policy. Imagine if at the start of lockdown some police forces had said “We heard what the prime minister had to say , but you’re still welcome here as long as you’re careful”.
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Post by Tim on May 22, 2020 14:48:42 GMT
Good piece on this in The Times today entitled: "Boris Johnson’s idols can teach him a lesson or two - Pericles and Churchill knew how vital it was to communicate effectively with their people in times of national crisis" by Philip Collins. " In fact, the substance of each one lies in Churchill’s ability to explain the state of battle. The speeches are full of detail and, though the tone is necessarily optimistic, most of the details point towards pessimism. " I don't think Boris is renowned for his focus on detail. So that leaves us relying on the likes of Williamson (referenced in the article), Hancock, Patel, etc to fill in the gaps. It's not going to go well, is it? I think this could've been the point where the politicians gave us a pleasant surprise and pulled together but actually in the absence of clear, strong leadership its just not going to happen. I've appreciated Boris' optimism, I think it had helped improve the general mood in the country but he needs to change that to 'Get This Done' as we come out of lockdown. Perhaps Mr Cummings can come up with a better 3 word catchphrase to see us through.
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Post by johnc on May 22, 2020 15:14:16 GMT
I don't know if any of you saw Question Time last night but the Danish PM was on and she was saying that all parties in Denmark came together to find a collaborative solution. She then remarked that this was somewhat different to the adversarial approach taken in the UK which she felt would hamper our ability to move forward. She is so right. Everywhere in our Political system someone is looking to stab you in the back or take advantage at every opportunity - we really are politically prehistoric sometimes in this country.
As for the cost to the NHS, my wife has a friend who works part time as a doctor doing out of hour cover etc. Her normal monthly gross is c£5,000. She has been working full time recently and has been getting c£15K a month.
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Post by michael on May 22, 2020 15:50:51 GMT
I don't know if any of you saw Question Time last night but the Danish PM was on and she was saying that all parties in Denmark came together to find a collaborative solution. She then remarked that this was somewhat different to the adversarial approach taken in the UK which she felt would hamper our ability to move forward. She is so right. Everywhere in our Political system someone is looking to stab you in the back or take advantage at every opportunity - we really are politically prehistoric sometimes in this country. As for the cost to the NHS, my wife has a friend who works part time as a doctor doing out of hour cover etc. Her normal monthly gross is c£5,000. She has been working full time recently and has been getting c£15K a month. Isn’t it the case that a half of GPs now work part time (why don’t we have enough?). Doctors get paid nearly £100 to sign death certificates, two are usually required though not at the moment. I had a former colleague who had Crems listed in her diary two nights a week when she would go to Newcastle crematorium and sign off death certificates earning thousands a night.
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Post by Tim on May 22, 2020 15:51:54 GMT
As usual we're following the trends set by our distant cousins across the Atlantic.
Their politics is a complete mess at the moment, if you take Trump's impeachment as a simple example the Republicans stood up on day one and said that whatever the evidence was they wouldn't impeach. Someone should remind them (and our lot) that's not the way things are meant to be. I know it's often spoken about but is there ever going to come a point when it gets so bad that there really is a popular surge towards another group that actually listens (even though that wouldn't last)?
I'm completely bored with the constant sniping from all sides, perhaps its just a corollary of the modern social media world?
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Post by ChrisM on May 22, 2020 16:29:58 GMT
I'm completely bored with the constant sniping from all sides, perhaps its just a corollary of the modern social media world? Bored?? I'm totally fed up with it... United Kingdom? Never - Wales, Scotland and NI all want to go their own ways. When you look back not so long ago we had an amazing Empire that stretched out across the world (how many of you can remember buying goods with a label stating "Empire made" ?) and now we are reduced to arguing with our nearest neighbours over almost everything.
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Post by racingteatray on May 22, 2020 17:04:28 GMT
As for the cost to the NHS, my wife has a friend who works part time as a doctor doing out of hour cover etc. Her normal monthly gross is c£5,000. She has been working full time recently and has been getting c£15K a month. On the other hand, the government gets nearly half that back in tax...
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Post by racingteatray on May 22, 2020 17:09:00 GMT
I'm completely bored with the constant sniping from all sides, perhaps its just a corollary of the modern social media world? When you look back not so long ago we had an amazing Empire that stretched out across the world (how many of you can remember buying goods with a label stating "Empire made" ?) and now we are reduced to arguing with our nearest neighbours over almost everything. Not least because a significant chunk of the population finds it difficult to get over the fact that we no longer have an Empire (as if small Atlantic islands, however storied, are somehow entitled to have one) and dislikes having to face up to, or adapt to, the new normal. All nations think of themselves as special but we British unfortunately really do take the notion of our own exceptionalism far more seriously than today's reality merits.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 22, 2020 17:52:38 GMT
When you look back not so long ago we had an amazing Empire that stretched out across the world (how many of you can remember buying goods with a label stating "Empire made" ?) and now we are reduced to arguing with our nearest neighbours over almost everything. Not least because a significant chunk of the population finds it difficult to get over the fact that we no longer have an Empire (as if small Atlantic islands, however storied, are somehow entitled to have one) and dislikes having to face up to, or adapt to, the new normal. All nations think of themselves as special but we British unfortunately really do take the notion of our own exceptionalism far more seriously than today's reality merits. Most countries do, it’s by no means unique to Britain.
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