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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2020 14:26:05 GMT
I know a lot's been said and written about the lack of sonic character in the above, but having heard a few over the last few days I find myself wondering why they sound quite so shitty.
Fiat Spyder thingummy, a base 718 and today a Focus RS. They all sound crude, bilious and course, like someone shouting a song. Admittedly a four rarely gets beyond being able to carry a reasonable tune (to stretch the analogy), as opposed to the six's palate which stretches from OK to you-might-pay-to-go-to-see. Are there mechanical reasons why the turbo four sounds worse than it used to? Is it down to high boost pressures, or that these arrive earlier in the rev range? Or is it that the decibel level is cranked up to imply sportiness?
If I were in the market for something in this range, the sound of the engine would in some cases completely rule cars out - no matter how excellent they might be otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2020 15:55:59 GMT
I take it emissions have a certain effect on this. Or am I wrong?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2020 16:25:27 GMT
I'm sure it is, but what is lost on me is why many of them sound so bad. And the worst culprits do seem to be from the 'sportier' end of the spectrum.
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Post by chipbutty on Apr 11, 2020 16:53:37 GMT
Older nat asp fours can sound engaging and Subaru’s flat four with unequal length manifolds sound awesome.
Unfortunately the combination of turbo charging and gpfs soak up any interesting noises and what is left has to be engineered in. On the plus side, anyone driving a current RS will be happy enough because Ford worked miracles with the interior sound enhancements, they sound fantastic, as does the last gen ST and the current one.
That’s going to be the future, those inside the car soak up the noises whilst those outside won’t be bothered by unnecessary volume or tone.
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Post by Martin on Apr 11, 2020 17:33:14 GMT
I think the biggest problem is the engineered in sillyness, which can also make 6 & 8 cylinder engines sound terrible, although they do start from a better base. As Pete says, GPFs don’t help either.
I was surprised, but the Golf sounds pretty good from the outside at low revs in normal mode, but most will be in race which sounds pretty bad imo, thank goodness for individual mode. I’m not really bothered what a car sounds like from the outside as you rarely hear it and I don’t care what anyone else thinks. Having said that, the 750 sound even better from the outside, but that’s because it’s so refined,. Sport mode helps a lot and thankfully it doesn’t add in any silly pops/bangs/rattles.
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Post by Andy C on Apr 11, 2020 18:08:05 GMT
I think they have a place. They clearly do a decent job in stuff like the Golf R / Leon Cupra, and I don't particularly dislike the sound, they just don't sound anywhere near as good as something like the M140i and RS3. Comparing 2 mates cars - 140i and S3. 3 things stand out ; how much quicker the 140 is, especially in gear, how much better it sounds, and how much more efficient it is.
Using the EA888 as an example, an ABT map and a more cultured noise from the exhaust from say milltek would convince a lot more people
Out of all the 4's Ive heard. I have to say Colins Abarth sounds the best.
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 11, 2020 18:16:06 GMT
That nice sound you hear from a four pot is usually induction noise. The turbo drowns most of that out and it has an effect on exhaust too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 10:53:54 GMT
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Post by Blarno on Apr 12, 2020 12:45:05 GMT
Simple. Modern 4 pot turbos tend to have mani-turbos, where the exhaust manifold is cast into the head and the turbo bolts straigh to it. Older engines had the option of tubular manifolds to smooth out the pulses or even have them work against each other (like the aforementioned Subaru) and experienced engine tuners could wring all kinds of noises out of a 4 pot using exhausts. Induction noise is pretty much gone nowadays, even opting for an aftermarket air filter does next to nothing with modern engines as they are already hugely efficient.
And GPFs, the next big killer of modern engines....
But also, people have been sold the idea of popping, banging and farting as being sporty. Older engines will do that too, but only every so often and usually in a high state of tune, not on every up or downshift.
Decent sounding nat asp 4 pots are long gone and I for one miss that. I've had some belting engines powering me along in my past - every Peugeot 1.9, whether 8 or 16 valve. The Legacy Turbo, the Clio, even the 8v 2.0 in my GTEs.
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Post by PG on Apr 12, 2020 12:47:08 GMT
As said above, I think the lack of induction noise has a lot to do with it. Basically, externally, all you're left with is mechanical noise and exhaust.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2020 13:18:25 GMT
I keep seeing a Golf GTi in the village, the version where the last sporty one has a six-pot. This particular car has an R32 twin-pipe exhaust, but sounds fucking grim. Loud, which is what the owner was after I suspect, but grim nonetheless.
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Post by Tim on Apr 14, 2020 8:54:37 GMT
The 1990s touring cars sounded pretty good. Conversely an AMG A35 Mk1 I followed a while back sounded terrible, like a swarm of bees in a can interrupted by a sharp burp/fart when it changed gear. Utterly atrocious. The Abarth 500s can sound incredible with a beautiful deep sound from the exhaust as if they have a huge engine rather than 1.4 litres.
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Post by Blarno on Apr 14, 2020 13:08:50 GMT
The 1990s touring cars sounded pretty good. Conversely an AMG A35 Mk1 I followed a while back sounded terrible, like a swarm of bees in a can interrupted by a sharp burp/fart when it changed gear. Utterly atrocious. The Abarth 500s can sound incredible with a beautiful deep sound from the exhaust as if they have a huge engine rather than 1.4 litres. I always think the opposite of the Arbroath Fiats, they sound like a tiny engine with too large an exhaust, like when boy racers used to put drainpipe exhausts on Renault 5GTTs.
I've always had a soft spot for the Sierra Cosworth engine note, especially with a decent stainless exhaust on it. Lots of low compression burble and whooshy boost noises. And Escort RS Turbos - how they made the CVH engine sound good is beyond me.
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Post by Martin on Apr 14, 2020 14:03:54 GMT
The 1990s touring cars sounded pretty good. Conversely an AMG A35 Mk1 I followed a while back sounded terrible, like a swarm of bees in a can interrupted by a sharp burp/fart when it changed gear. Utterly atrocious. The Abarth 500s can sound incredible with a beautiful deep sound from the exhaust as if they have a huge engine rather than 1.4 litres. I always think the opposite of the Arbroath Fiats, they sound like a tiny engine with too large an exhaust, like when boy racers used to put drainpipe exhausts on Renault 5GTTs.
I've always had a soft spot for the Sierra Cosworth engine note, especially with a decent stainless exhaust on it. Lots of low compression burble and whooshy boost noises. And Escort RS Turbos - how they made the CVH engine sound good is beyond me.
Agree with you on the 500s, the one with the 4 pipes don't sound good at all. They always want to race you as well, I usually let them go but on the odd occasion they try it when I'm in the BMW i can't help it which must hurt a bit.....
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Post by Tim on Apr 14, 2020 14:07:31 GMT
The 1990s touring cars sounded pretty good. Conversely an AMG A35 Mk1 I followed a while back sounded terrible, like a swarm of bees in a can interrupted by a sharp burp/fart when it changed gear. Utterly atrocious. The Abarth 500s can sound incredible with a beautiful deep sound from the exhaust as if they have a huge engine rather than 1.4 litres. I always think the opposite of the Arbroath Fiats, they sound like a tiny engine with too large an exhaust, like when boy racers used to put drainpipe exhausts on Renault 5GTTs.
I've always had a soft spot for the Sierra Cosworth engine note, especially with a decent stainless exhaust on it. Lots of low compression burble and whooshy boost noises. And Escort RS Turbos - how they made the CVH engine sound good is beyond me.
I think the Abarth I heard only had 2 pipes possibly. I always thought that the Sierra Cosworth, on a standard exhaust, sounded a lot like my mum's 1984 Toyota Corolla 1.3
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Post by johnc on Apr 14, 2020 14:27:08 GMT
Most of my race cars had Tony Law tuned exhausts and they were all 4 cylinder and sounded wonderful. I think it is all down to turbos and emission controls. You never hear a poor sounding Caterham or Ariel Atom which are designed with the minimum possible adherence to emissions and sound restrictions.
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Post by Blarno on Apr 14, 2020 14:45:21 GMT
I'm keen to see how we can make the 2.3 Ecoboost 4 pot sound in the Mono. We have a much shorter exhaust system and no GPF. I hope we can make it nice and burbly with some whooshy boost noises.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 15:45:30 GMT
Can you post the audio at some time? Obviously nothing there yet but it would be nice to have a listen.
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Post by Blarno on Apr 14, 2020 15:50:40 GMT
As soon as we have a running car, I will likely video the first start/run for posterity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 16:46:13 GMT
Thanks, something for a petrol head to look forward to.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 14, 2020 21:11:57 GMT
The 1990s touring cars sounded pretty good. Conversely an AMG A35 Mk1 I followed a while back sounded terrible, like a swarm of bees in a can interrupted by a sharp burp/fart when it changed gear. Utterly atrocious. The Abarth 500s can sound incredible with a beautiful deep sound from the exhaust as if they have a huge engine rather than 1.4 litres. I always think the opposite of the Arbroath Fiats, they sound like a tiny engine with too large an exhaust, like when boy racers used to put drainpipe exhausts on Renault 5GTTs. I had a moment there wondering what an "Arbroath Fiat" was...and was thinking one would need a large exhaust in order to achieve the desired smokiness...
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Post by ChrisM on Apr 14, 2020 21:13:40 GMT
^ It may be a special edition for Tim, he's not that far from there is he?
I'd like to know what happened to the Italian restaurant I used to go to there, in the late 1990's
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 14, 2020 21:17:40 GMT
Older nat asp fours can sound engaging and Subaru’s flat four with unequal length manifolds sound awesome. I always thought my Golf Mk2 GTI 16v sounded decent enough, as did my old Mk2 1.8GL after I had it fitted with a Weber carb (the original gave up the ghost). And I never had any complaint about the turbo'd fours in my 2001 A3 1.8T quattro and 2003 S3, but then again perhaps I just didn't know any better. Certainly after selling the S3, I bought the first Z1 with of course a straight six, and since then I've only bought cars with at least six cylinders.
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Post by Tim on Apr 15, 2020 8:32:06 GMT
^ It may be a special edition for Tim, he's not that far from there is he? I'd like to know what happened to the Italian restaurant I used to go to there, in the late 1990's I've only been to Arbroath twice and one of them was just because the train stopped there on the way to Aberdeen! I fancy a trip to Montrose as there's a growing air museum there, I think its taken 2 or 3 exhibits on loan from the RAF Museum store.
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Post by Boxer6 on Apr 15, 2020 10:24:45 GMT
^ It may be a special edition for Tim, he's not that far from there is he? I'd like to know what happened to the Italian restaurant I used to go to there, in the late 1990's I've only been to Arbroath twice and one of them was just because the train stopped there on the way to Aberdeen! I fancy a trip to Montrose as there's a growing air museum there, I think its taken 2 or 3 exhibits on loan from the RAF Museum store. It's quite near the local model flying club fields, which are apparently public park land they 'officially borrow' from the local council. I got a flyer about it at East Fortune last year, and the fella on the stand was very knowledgeable and chatty, keen to promote it. On my list for a post-lockdown visit.
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Post by Tim on Apr 15, 2020 10:48:53 GMT
I've only been to Arbroath twice and one of them was just because the train stopped there on the way to Aberdeen! I fancy a trip to Montrose as there's a growing air museum there, I think its taken 2 or 3 exhibits on loan from the RAF Museum store. It's quite near the local model flying club fields, which are apparently public park land they 'officially borrow' from the local council. I got a flyer about it at East Fortune last year, and the fella on the stand was very knowledgeable and chatty, keen to promote it. On my list for a post-lockdown visit. Give me a shout if you're going. There's also a good sounding one near Inverness (Morayvia). I see that it has a cockpit section of a Valiant bomber, a very, very rare commodity.
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Post by ChrisM on Apr 15, 2020 12:10:14 GMT
I've been to the Montrose Air Museum.... small but very interesting and you get personal treatment
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 15, 2020 12:11:54 GMT
I've been to the Montrose Air Museum.... small but very interesting and you get personal treatment Is a warm chamois involved?
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Post by Boxer6 on Apr 15, 2020 17:59:31 GMT
It's quite near the local model flying club fields, which are apparently public park land they 'officially borrow' from the local council. I got a flyer about it at East Fortune last year, and the fella on the stand was very knowledgeable and chatty, keen to promote it. On my list for a post-lockdown visit. Give me a shout if you're going.There's also a good sounding one near Inverness (Morayvia). I see that it has a cockpit section of a Valiant bomber, a very, very rare commodity. Will do. Do you still have the same mobile number?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 18:05:37 GMT
Will you be taking pictures? Valiant parts are so rare I have never seen one outside of pictures. Almost as rare as Short Sperrin parts.
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