Bye bye elections

A couple of nights ago I had a wierd dream in which Nigel Farage came, uninvited, to my house. I had a massive row with him, refusing to cook him a meal, so he started to cook something for himself. It all went wrong and he burnt a big hole in the worktop, leaving the kitchen and cooker completely wrecked.

All sorts of metaphor in there, and yet some are saying he would make a good leader for the Conservatives.

I think Momentum are quietly lurking, waiting in the background, ready for a Labour win. Then they'll emerge and you'll see a battle for the heart of the Labour Party between the Trojan Horse, Starmer, and the hard line Corbynists as they try to wrest control. 

I may be wrong but didn't the results of the latest by-elections hinge on large numbers of previous Tory voters not voting? I may be wrong but I seem to remember from some figures I read that the Labour vote didn't actually go through the stratosphere.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong.

I was always a Labour voter until local events created a backlash and lead many locals to vote Tory for perhaps the first time. Corbyn was also a factor for me and to this day I don't think his shadow and that of the more extreme left has reduced enough to allow me to vote labour. I think I am concerned about a future labour govt and what it could lead to given the more extreme leanings of some supporters and groups.

I'd like to see a new party more in line with the Labour party of old, left leaning on some issues and more conservative (conservative, not Tory) on other issues.

Many people who voted for Brexit wouldn't consider themselves "far right" or anything like it. People like me. I was a traditional Labour voter from a working class and traditionally Labour voting area which voted decisively for Brexit. As did many similar areas and people.

To link people like this with anything "far right" is simply wrong. However the definition of "far right" nowadays seems to include anyone who isn't a member of Hamas. Tongue in cheek but you get my point.

The Conservative govt deserves to be voted out and Sunak does imo need to go but I do see potential things to fear from a future labour govt, things which are not already here. Whatever govt "we" vote for "we" will have to live with the consequences. I hope people realise this as they vote.

I'm afraid you've demonstrated everything that's wrong with modern society, from social media keyboard warriors all the way to those in Westminster setting the rules under which society lives.

There was no mention by me of Brexit at all: I pointed out the reason for the Conservatives calling a referendum. I did not mention any Brexit voters from any historical political background at all (although the figures for votes in traditional Labour constituencies showed at the Boris Johnson election that the "foreigners are being nasty to you" approach had some tangible effect and anyone that thinks otherwise is lying to themselves) because there is no black and white; them and us; two sided argument for the running of a nation of 67M people yet that is how everything in society is approached.

Some examples:
You're a homosexual yet you refuse to accept that transexuals can be women in the same sense as a woman born with no Y chromosome - you're a TERF and need to be killed.
You're a white person in a fight with a black person; you defend yourself robustly and injure the other party. The argument was about a girl / spilled drink / football but you are a racist.
You think that carpet bombing the civilian population of Gaza is atrocious - you're an antisemite.
You think that taxing the better off more is going to result in the flight of wealth and loss of tax income - you're a greedy capitalist.
You think that making sure that the wealthy pay their share of tax yet can maintain their lifestyle - you're a raving Marxist.

As to the remark about the "far right" and Labour voters, Labour being the party of socialist ideals, the power of the common man and the rights of workers - the National Socialist German Workers' Party was exactly that. Apparently they were also "far right".

Sorry if I've come across as a bit bate-y in this post, but this country is in a shocking state and even if, as I said, Count Binface became the leader of the ruling party it couldn't be any worse than the current shower of utter shit. That coming from a reasonably well-off boy from a Surrey schooling background that's quite some criticism.

I agree but the difference with Labour this time is that the Momentum nutters are still hanging around and if they do what they did in the 1960s and 70s, they will chase anyone with money out of the country. Remember that the higher rate tax threshold should be about £90K now if it had moved with earnings and inflation but at £50,250 in England and Wales and £43,662 in Scotland (and an additional 2% on top) the people they are taking nearly half their earnings from are hardly wealthy. The danger is, a bit like the SNP, that they try to appeal to those at the very bottom, who contribute a tiny proportion of the tax but would be happy to see all those above them pay much more. Unfortunately it isn't that simple. 

What's worse then, Labour with a possibility of Momentum getting involved or the Tories with the ERG nutters doing a full takeover?

I don't think that Labour will pursue the misgendering thing and net zero will be toned down once they see the cost and need for much higher taxes.
As for them not giving a stuff about working people, well they're no different from the current Tories there are they?
Don't forget we're currently paying more in tax than ever before and this under a Tory government.


One of the parties has to realise that what the vast majority of people actually want is a centrist - slightly left or right probably doesn't matter - Government that at least pretends to listen to the main issues that normal folk worry about.

I think Brexit has been a massive temporary bump in the road that has somehow become a false indication - to the morons in power/potentially in power - that most people want more right leaning policies. I don't think that's the case at all.

Haven't some countries flirted with a move to the right and then gone back a bit?
I can't remember who but saw it mentioned somewhere recently.

This is about where we are.

I get (as per the comments above) that fear of change and fear of the unknown are big drivers behind the continued re-selection of the Conservative party (change and fear of the unknown are pretty much conservative traits) but as history shows every so often a shake-up is required to rein-in the creeping complacency and the blatant abuse of the [political] [social] [taxation] system. The biggest issue is that politicians in the history of the filthy career have only ever had one agenda and that is to remain in office because it allows them to play the game that they want to play. That game can differ amongst many:

Atlee used the desire for a more vocal public voice by the masses following the war to get elected. That the US (who were handing out money at the time) saw him as leading a party of "commies" and treated the UK with suspicion in their (the US') most fruitful years was inconsequential. Given his social background (he once write a paper attacking striking taxi drivers; benefitted from inherited wealth and lived a lifestyle akin to the current front bench of the Conservative party) he was hardly a natural Labourite.

If you check back to the introduction of the Common Agricultural Policy in the UK and see how many politicians suddenly became farm owners and understand the long term level of system abuse.

Thatcher used the militancy of the unions to gain power (as was also common, but not as vehemently reported, in the rest of Europe). That the policies of her government probably increased the lot of a far greater number of families than the vociferous many that regale the issues they feel are "working class" that she opposed says much about the political and media landscape. There was no them and us in the late 70s: everyone was fucked with the well-off being taxed at 83% and the rest of everyone wearing clothes that made static sparks if you rubbed them together.

Major was probably the last true Conservative political leader as far as the general population were concerned. He came from a relatively normal background (as did Thatcher compared to the alternatives of her time) and understood what most ordinary people wanted most of the time, something that is sadly lacking in all parties today. He was never a glory chaser and became leader in an era of party turmoil. His electoral success was probably as hated by the Tory grandees as by the foaming lefties and his undoing was brought about by the excesses of the type of Conservative we see today, storming out of election halls as bad losers.

Blair used that middle ground that had been built by the Thatcher and Major years to gain power. The left despised his centralism; the right were suspicious of any left wing possibilities.

Since then there has been a farcical situation at No 10 on all fronts. Brown was a lost cause with the centre ground voters and his much-publicised brush with a common or garden member of the public did him no favours with the working classes either. The Cameron hung-parliament was toilet and he had to resort to playing on the anti-foreigner atmosphere to get the next GE over the line by promising a referendum. Some will point at the Johnson GE success as a pointer of stability of direction in the polls but his tenure was an exact illustration of my point above above about politicians only being there to stay in.

So a change is required. It may be that there is a mad lurch to the left and we're all enslaved at 20mph; maybe taxes will go up more (although remember who currently made them this high); maybe there will be a flight of business from the UK, but there is already. The tax issue is the biggest gripe for me: I'm not concerned about my tax percentage neither am I concerned about it going up or down 5%. What pisses me off the most is seeing it being utterly pissed against a wall with no benefits for society as a whole visible no matter which side is in power at a local and national level.

Pete's analysis is largely correct: carry on with the same, knowing it's shit or; change not knowing what shit will come. I suspect many will be looking at the latter and gritting their teeth that they can stand it for five years if it makes the other side understand where the limits are.

Poland recently.

France: always on the brink of a Le Pen administration but never quite making it

Slovakia: Nationalists didn't make it to full parliament and have to coalition with all sorts of dregs

Germany: same as Slovakia

But Gordon Brown and Tony Blair stopped the automatic increase in the bands with inflation - the Tories then used that to their advantage and I quite agree, have screwed us ever since. The SNP just added a bit more pain north of the border.

Like Jeff, I want to know where all my tax money is going.

No way. Have you seen how much these guys get paid and most of them are average at best!

Ha! We deliver services through the big 4 (all of them) because they are on Government Frameworks that provide certain services and the Big 4 haven't got direct capability in those certain services. We (and others like us) do have so we are tiered suppliers. The thing is the tenders that the Big 4 respond to (and win) would be won by companies like ours if we were allowed to enter the Frameworks as stand alone but there are more barriers that way than partnering with a big 4 and letting them do the expensive tendering bit.

It results in seasoned professionals being managed by callow youth, if I'm honest. I know what my general charge-out rate range is and it can be into 4-figures a day. The big 4 are still making money on the deal as well as administering us. Then get this: we as a tiered provider division in the Partnership are more profitable than the traditional arms of the business that do the really fancy front-of-house stuff for FTSE100 companies.

This is probably why I'm not concerned about being taxed, but remain concerned about where it is spent for the general populace.

We’re involved in a fairly large government tender process and I’ve never seen anything like it, from the paperwork to the decision process. Thankfully it’s not my Division. They do want everything with one supplier, but in this particular case I can see why and it does make sense.