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Post by Ben on May 23, 2017 14:51:39 GMT
We've already had Nicky Hayden gone, then a terrorist attack, and now Roger Moore. And it's only Tuesday.
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Post by Roadsterstu on May 23, 2017 20:21:18 GMT
Hayden was a tragic accident, Moore a sad loss, certainly. Then, on a totally different scale, young people, kids and parents targetted in Manchester. Truly awful. My cousin's two kids were at the concert. Very shaken but thankfully safe.
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Post by johnc on May 24, 2017 7:06:01 GMT
I have never felt so disgusted and angry at the same time. I am now getting very close to the point where I believe if you are on the Police watch list for this kind of thing, it should be terminal. Terminal 5 if you weren't born here and any other terminal you like for those that were.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 24, 2017 7:13:33 GMT
I have never felt so disgusted and angry at the same time. I am now getting very close to the point where I believe if you are on the Police watch list for this kind of thing, it should be terminal. Terminal 5 if you weren't born here and any other terminal you like for those that were. Every time these incidents happen it always comes out that they were "known" to the police. He dropped out of University, he recently returned from Libya, he was known and yet he was still allowed to commit this atrocity. There's over hundreds, if not thousands, of fighters returned from Syria walking around our streets, it's costing £9 billion a year to monitor them. How on earth did we let it get to this situation? I am no longer surprised by these incidents, we are just holding our breath waiting for the next one.
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Post by grampa on May 24, 2017 8:41:21 GMT
What we don't know of course (and quite rightly IMO) is how many such attacks get thwarted.
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Post by Big Blue on May 24, 2017 9:00:00 GMT
For the first time I recall an Imam was on the news last night trying to explain how he has to go into the community and talk to people that have been affected by this that aren't Muslims. He said he was in no doubt that the fact the perpetrator was a Muslim would be in the forefront of people's minds as they spoke to him and that he would struggle to change their mind about Islam. He then ended the interview with a statement that true muslims need to drive this out of their religion; that it needs to be pressed home that this is not what Islam is about. I'm glad to see and hear that from an Imam (accepting that he now has a price on his head) and it's only that kind of thing that will ease the push of radicalism to a degree, but that's all it will ever do. There will forever be fundamentalist nut-jobs as long as there is religion.
As to the event, I called my friend in Manchester yesterday and he said "it was only a matter of time until we had something in Manchester. At least the wait is over." Harsh, cold but true.
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Post by Tim on May 24, 2017 9:16:32 GMT
I can only echo what BB says.
Perhaps it might help if a few senior Muslims were interviewed and asked what part of their religious texts says its ok to target young children?
I'm also sure that 99.9% of Muslims will feel the same way as the rest of us.
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Post by grampa on May 24, 2017 9:24:49 GMT
here will forever be fundamentalist nut-jobs as long as there is religion. I'm sure if there wasn't religion there would be something else that such people would hook into - a political cause or something else. How you begin to understand such minds so you start to be able to make inroads into stopping them, I have no idea.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 24, 2017 9:33:28 GMT
What we don't know of course (and quite rightly IMO) is how many such attacks get thwarted. I heard the figure of 12 quoted for major attacks thwarted last year.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 24, 2017 9:44:24 GMT
here will forever be fundamentalist nut-jobs as long as there is religion. I'm sure if there wasn't religion there would be something else that such people would hook into - a political cause or something else. How you begin to understand such minds so you start to be able to make inroads into stopping them, I have no idea. I think it was Steven Weinberg who said; — 'With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.' When these people are radicalised it is religion that is used to say to them "look there's a higher power and the promise of a better future in the hereafter - you may be in prison, you may have lead a dissolute life, you may feel oppressed and discriminated against but do this in the name of religion and your sins are cleansed, it's the ultimate get out of jail free card. It's hard to see anything other than religion having that hold over someone. The fact is the muslim community are the ones that hold the key to this - they have to point out the suspects, make sure that these people can't hide among them, and deliver a clear message in the mosques that this is not the way forward.
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Post by PetrolEd on May 24, 2017 9:54:25 GMT
In a way we're fortunate that these acts aren't more commonplace and probably demonstrates the good job the security forces have done in protecting us so far bur how many incidents are deemed acceptable before we get serious. All people on the watch list need proper tagging and monitoring where we know their location 24/7. Anyone suspect that wasn't born in the UK needs to be out of here asap and proper detention centres for those we think are a real threat.
There is no chance of change with the liberal thinking of the UK population. People won't stand for deportation of foreigners, imprisonment of suspects without trial etc. and not sure even with my right of centre outlook that I'd find it acceptable.
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Post by grampa on May 24, 2017 15:44:09 GMT
I'm sure if there wasn't religion there would be something else that such people would hook into - a political cause or something else. How you begin to understand such minds so you start to be able to make inroads into stopping them, I have no idea. "I think it was Steven Weinberg who said; — 'With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.' When these people are radicalised it is religion that is used to say to them "look there's a higher power and the promise of a better future in the hereafter - you may be in prison, you may have lead a dissolute life, you may feel oppressed and discriminated against but do this in the name of religion and your sins are cleansed, it's the ultimate get out of jail free card. It's hard to see anything other than religion having that hold over someone. The fact is the muslim community are the ones that hold the key to this - they have to point out the suspects, make sure that these people can't hide among them, and deliver a clear message in the mosques that this is not the way forward." EDIT: quote button not working again. There have been other 'causes' which have managed to convince people to commit terrorist acts though - yes they may radicalise different people (although I'm sure there must be a common thread amongst people who are susceptible to being persuaded they should kill and/or die for their beliefs), but there have been acts of terrorism in the names of things other than religion - probably for as long as man has had the ability to terrorise his fellow man.
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Post by Tim on May 24, 2017 16:15:42 GMT
I keep thinking attacks like this and the Westminster one are more mental health issues than actual terrorism. Suggestible people being manipulated into doing something terrible.
The Florida nightclub shooting fell under the same category to my mind.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 17:30:08 GMT
It will take all of us to stop this, it seems that whenever there is one of these attacks there is a backlash towards the community involved. Take a look at the continental US and the murders of doctors and nurses working in abortion clinic's.
We all have to get together and prove that we are able, as a species, to work together in all life's endeavours. I hope we make it soon but will not be holding my breath.
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Post by Alex on May 24, 2017 18:04:10 GMT
I can only echo what BB says. Perhaps it might help if a few senior Muslims were interviewed and asked what part of their religious texts says its ok to target young children? I'm also sure that 99.9% of Muslims will feel the same way as the rest of us. The point about children is that, in so far as his beliefs go, they were doing something abhorrent as far as Allah is concerned. How dare these females go out on their own and enjoy watching a scantily clad (and by that I mean that to them, a miniskirt and boob tube is in complete defiance of the Koran's rule that women should dress modestly when outside) woman perform pop songs? To his warped view of Islam, they were acting in severe disobedience of Sharia law and were therefore fair game. I personally believe that a deterrent to suicide bombing could be to refuse this Scumbag a proper Islamic burial. The risk of their soul not being handled properly and therefore the risk of them not receiving martyrdom could be a suprisingly effective deterrent.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 18:21:47 GMT
That might alienate the remainder of the Islamic faith. Not a safe way anywhere other than ship them off to an Islamic nation for trial. I believe Saudi Arabia would be favourable to such a scheme. Chop chop square would have a heap of new competitors for the weekly games.
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Post by PG on May 24, 2017 18:32:07 GMT
The issue is that the Muslim faith and the elders who represent it, never quite come out and say "these people are a disgrace to Islam". And as FB said, the Pope never quite said that about the IRA either. So religions are responsible in that they refuse to "ex-communicate" (or the equivalent for their faith) those people who commit acts of murder and terrorism in either their name or as a member of that faith. For example, here is the press release issued by the Muslim Council of Britain after the atrocity last night -
"Following the attack on Manchester Arena last night, Harun Khan, Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, issued the following statement: “My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. I understand teenagers and children have been caught up in what the police has confirmed to be a terrorist attack. This is horrific, this is criminal. May the perpetrators face the full weight of justice both in this life and the next.
I pay tribute to the police and emergency services who have worked valiantly to save lives last night. They were helped by civilians who rushed into offer their support. I urge all those in the region and around the country to pool together to support those affected.”
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Post by Boxer6 on May 24, 2017 20:40:50 GMT
The issue is that the Muslim faith and the elders who represent it, never quite come out and say "these people are a disgrace to Islam". And as FB said, the Pope never quite said that about the IRA either. So religions are responsible in that they refuse to "ex-communicate" (or the equivalent for their faith) those people who commit acts of murder and terrorism in either their name or as a member of that faith. For example, here is the press release issued by the Muslim Council of Britain after the atrocity last night - "Following the attack on Manchester Arena last night, Harun Khan, Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, issued the following statement: “My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. I understand teenagers and children have been caught up in what the police has confirmed to be a terrorist attack. This is horrific, this is criminal. May the perpetrators face the full weight of justice both in this life and the next.
I pay tribute to the police and emergency services who have worked valiantly to save lives last night. They were helped by civilians who rushed into offer their support. I urge all those in the region and around the country to pool together to support those affected.”You're right, they don't, and perhaps it may help a little if they did. But that statement could have been attributed to pretty much any political figure and you'd never know the difference - even the "next life" bit could be expelled from Darth May's poisonous gob.
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Post by racingteatray on May 24, 2017 22:05:31 GMT
Yes, it's a truly terrible week.
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Post by Blarno on May 25, 2017 8:35:24 GMT
And people wonder why I'm a raging atheist.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 6:22:07 GMT
D
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Post by Roadsterstu on Jun 4, 2017 8:28:16 GMT
No it didn't, did it. Low tech, easy to do. I think more will follow. Still, 8 mins to turn up and shoot em dead. Good going.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 4, 2017 10:53:24 GMT
No it didn't, did it. Low tech, easy to do. I think more will follow. Still, 8 mins to turn up and shoot em dead. Good going. Unfortunately it looks like Ramadan is going to be a very bloody month. There needs to be a new approach, "keep calm and carry on" doesn't work - there's another 7 people not carrying on today, #prayforlondon won't work, lighting up the Eiffel Tower with the Union flag won't work. The platitudes of the useless London Mayor won't work. All those people on watch lists, persons of interest etc need to be pulled in and held until their movements and relationships can be determined. Anyone who has been to Syria and Libya needs to be pulled in - they didn't go there for an all inclusive poolside holiday. I never thought I'd support internment but we did it during the war and we're sure as fuck in a war now.
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Post by LandieMark on Jun 4, 2017 11:14:11 GMT
I agree that we need to be more proactive rather simply reactive. It's not simple though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 11:30:35 GMT
I think the idea was that they be shot dead, as a recruitment thing, perhaps they could have been rendered captive but the fake suicide vests suggests they were pushing for the lethal method. How bloody sad that people think dying for their faith is a better way than living for it but then, these actions are pushed by activists who never go near the sharp end of these things unless a drone "drops one" on their heads.
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Post by Alex on Jun 4, 2017 11:55:13 GMT
Not easy though. If you lock up every current person of interest you risk giving the hate preachers more evidence of how the infidels of the west are enemies of Islam. This will only help their recruitment drive. Sometimes surely they have to be allowed to keep planning their attack until there is enough evidence to prosecute them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 13:27:53 GMT
I cannot understand why those who abhor the west and are militantly 'Islamic' (I think they pervert their own faith) don't go and live in a country that is run how they wish. Standard of living, I suppose. As to the answer, I wish I knew.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 4, 2017 14:48:10 GMT
Not easy though. If you lock up every current person of interest you risk giving the hate preachers more evidence of how the infidels of the west are enemies of Islam. This will only help their recruitment drive. Sometimes surely they have to be allowed to keep planning their attack until there is enough evidence to prosecute them. Do you think they could hate us any more?
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Post by Alex on Jun 4, 2017 16:22:14 GMT
Not easy though. If you lock up every current person of interest you risk giving the hate preachers more evidence of how the infidels of the west are enemies of Islam. This will only help their recruitment drive. Sometimes surely they have to be allowed to keep planning their attack until there is enough evidence to prosecute them. Do you think they could hate us any more? No but it'll help them persuade others to hate us!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 16:37:48 GMT
Larger numbers could be persuaded to, I think that's a legitimate fear. But things do have to change, I just wish I knew how.
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