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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 4, 2017 21:27:30 GMT
A British Muslim's perspective:
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 4, 2017 22:17:55 GMT
Perhaps successive U.K. governments should stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia as part of the effort. It would certainly make us all feel better. It'll make fuck all difference though as there are plenty who would step in to fill the gap. www.dw.com/en/weapons-go-to-conflict-zones-the-money-comes-to-germany/a-18798104The Saudis are fighting a proxi war with Iran in Yemen and no matter what we do they are not going to let the Houthis take over the country and establish a Shia presence on the peninsula, so close to home. Both sides are committing terrible atrocities.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 3:33:34 GMT
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Post by johnc on Jun 5, 2017 6:57:01 GMT
What I have heard over the weekend has made me considerably more worried than before: if this radicalisation is really a State sponsored movement by one or some of the world's richest countries, then the world has a massive problem and one that is going to be extremely difficult to counter. It will need international co-operation on a scale never seen before.
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Post by PG on Jun 5, 2017 9:49:41 GMT
A pretty terrible weekend for sure. Low tech attacks like this are almost impossible to stop, but 8 minutes from call to shot dead is a real change from what might have been a year ago. The armed police just went in and dealt with it. So well done to them for doing that. I do wonder if the calls for routine arming of all officers might come again? I know from surveys that the police themselves do not want this, but that brave Transport policeman who had to face them with his night stick, might at least have been able to shoot one of them? Mind you, they then might have taken his gun. No easy answer to any of this is there?
The quote from bob above is pretty much where the answer lies. But who has the political will to say this? It's much easier politically to have new powers, new rules. But very hard to say that the issue lies with people's religion being hijacked by a absolutist element. What has happened to Islam is like imagining that the extreme wing of the Protestant faith gained power and that thereafter all women had to return to the kitchen, alcohol was banned and puritanism became "normal" and that those who did not adhere were not worthy.
It's taken us 20-30 years to get where we are in terms of Muslim fundamentalism and their violence against everybody else. It will take 20-30 years to reverse it - but we have to start by calling out religious fanaticism for what it is - undemocratic, intolerant and unacceptable in any western society. And I personally believe that we need step back from "multi-culturalism". It's a dangerous mis-nomer. You can't have multi-cultural society, without destroying society. What you can have is personal and religious freedom and tolerance within a society. But only if the members of that religions accept that society is universal and you have to follow its rules.
And I include the CofE no women priest / no homosexual nutters here as much as the Imams who talk about Wahabbist Islam. The laws of the land are quite clear - no discrimination of grounds of race, sex, religion, age or sexual orientation. If you don't like that, then fuck off elsewhere. That's the message that needs to go out there.
A good place to start would be educating children - so perhaps no faith schools any more and stopping all home education. All schools to talk a secularist, inclusive message. Wed don't care what religion you want to follow. But you have to adhere to societies norms and expectations.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 5, 2017 10:19:46 GMT
Just at a time where nationalism and isolation seem to be ever more popular. I too am deeply worried largely because not sure what the answer looks like, and I suspect anyone who thinks they do has even less of an idea than I but they will surely tell everyone about 'what should be done' I’ll stick my head above the parapet: Resources need to be allocated so that the 3000 persons of interest can be fully investigated, their movements and affiliations tracked and if necessary they need to be pulled in and held under The Prevention of Terrorism Act. There are 1800 mosques in the UK, many of them with Imams that have come from Saudi, barely speak English, and are promoting a strict form of Wahhibism that is completely at odds with the traditional teaching of British Muslims. We need to work with the Muslim Council of Britain to weed out these hate preachers and deport them. We also need to stop extremist groups using the mosques to spread their message as well. Many young Muslim men are first radicalised in prison. They go in for fairly minor offences and, again, there is either a Imam or another prisoner feeds them literature and false information, presenting them with a way back to salvation that involved Jihad and a hatred of their captors. Again we need to work with the Muslim Council of Britain to ensure the message they are getting is a moderate Islamic one given to them by approved Imams. That will involve more resources and better segregation. We need to make sure that hate material is removed from the internet quicker and the tech companies have to be more proactive in tackling this. The people you see protesting on the street advocating Sharia Law need to rounded up and deported. The Saudi funded Madrassas that have sprung up all over and are teaching strict Wahhabism should be closed down. We need to make more efforts to integrate schools and make them more secular. Strict uniform rules need to applied and the headscarf banned – it’s not a religious requirement, it’s a fashion statement. The muslim girls when I went to school didn’t wear it and I see no reason for this to be adopted now. None of this can be accomplished without the support of the Muslim community but they need to wake up and smell the coffee – make relatively small concessions now or risk ruining everything we’ve worked for in creating a multicultural country that accommodates all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 10:38:41 GMT
Not sure about the whys and wherefores of deportation, but we have to do things differently. The forms of terrorism now being used are almost beyond prevention, so we need to start working on cures even if the road is a long one.
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Post by PG on Jun 5, 2017 10:44:28 GMT
All sensible stuff bob. But to say all that, the politicians (and by that I mean mainstream politicians) have to get off their PC, frightened to offend people arses and start facing a few hard truths. And the Muslim Council need to do the same.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 5, 2017 10:52:09 GMT
Not sure about the whys and wherefores of deportation, but we have to do things differently. The forms of terrorism now being used are almost beyond prevention, so we need to start working on cures even if the road is a long one. Yes, I meant to add; if they are here on student visas, working visas, immigrants waiting for documentation etc, deport them. Not so easy if they are British subjects with a UK passport and born here.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 11:16:49 GMT
We also need a change in law so that there are NO grounds to appeal removal from the country. How many radical imams have remained after stating that they fear for their lives should they be sent via extradition to their homelands where there are warrants for them. Given the chance, Islamic nations will deal with their radicals. We prevent this via laws that are too lenient.
Perhaps a set of laws based around inclusion and the nation state? Treason is still open as a legal offence aginst those would tear this country, group of countries, apart. It still has the death penalty, perhaps we need to use all these mthods in this thread and have a determination to carry them through. Money can be found even in hard times but a national strength? Too many mealy mouthed liberal minded idiots who think everyone wants to share. I watched a program based on putting a bunch of young British Muslim's together in a house for a while to give them a chance to work out who they really were. Two of them were radical, one of them stating that one of the others could be legally killed by any true Muslim. Something to do with the date Mohamed began the Islamic faith. If you believe one date you are fine, the other date and you are and apostate and should be put to death. All faiths have radical sections, keep in mind that there are Priest's in the US, Christians, who promote the killing of doctors and nurses etc who perform abortion. Some sects of Jehovah's witness's go so far in their belief that the body is holy and should not be desecrated that they no only refuse blood and organ donation, they also keep everything that leaves the body. Yes, everything. Just shows we human beings can be truly weird. A lot of people believe in a deity. Folk like myself believe that in the billions of galaxies out there, thousands of intelligent species exist. And people think I am weird. OK, probably but you get my point I hope. I am right and everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong.
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Post by Ben on Jun 5, 2017 11:39:38 GMT
I cannot understand why those who abhor the west and are militantly 'Islamic' (I think they pervert their own faith) don't go and live in a country that is run how they wish. Standard of living, I suppose. As to the answer, I wish I knew. It's not about that I think. It's about the feeling of being suppressed by Western powers. And looking at the way the US has been treating countries like Iraq and etc over the past decade I think it's no surprise they feel this way. Not that I condone it of course. Islam is nothing like what they're 'practicing' at all.
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Post by Tim on Jun 5, 2017 12:50:25 GMT
Looks like it's going to get even worse - on a global sense - in light of today's news from Qatar, etc.
I find it ironic that Saudi and their allies are accusing Qatar of sponsoring terrorism when its likely they've been doing exactly the same for years
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 5, 2017 13:59:41 GMT
Looks like it's going to get even worse - on a global sense - in light of today's news from Qatar, etc. I find it ironic that Saudi and their allies are accusing Qatar of sponsoring terrorism when its likely they've been doing exactly the same for years I'm looking forward to the World Cup in 2022. Got my Premier Inn booked and everything.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 15:14:49 GMT
I cannot understand why those who abhor the west and are militantly 'Islamic' (I think they pervert their own faith) don't go and live in a country that is run how they wish. Standard of living, I suppose. As to the answer, I wish I knew. It's not about that I think. It's about the feeling of being suppressed by Western powers. And looking at the way the US has been treating countries like Iraq and etc over the past decade I think it's no surprise they feel this way. Not that I condone it of course. Islam is nothing like what they're 'practicing' at all. You misunderstand - I know that's not the root cause - I just wonder what it is that keeps people with such hard line views from choosing to live in a country with a matching ideology.
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Post by johnc on Jun 5, 2017 15:24:19 GMT
You misunderstand - I know that's not the root cause - I just wonder what it is that keeps people with such hard line views from choosing to live in a country with a matching ideology. The desire for world domination?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 15:30:15 GMT
Saudi Arabia, an odd place and around the same age as the modern Israel. When I was working there, the atmosphere could be cut with a broad plank let alone a knife. The so called Al Mutawa where highly visible roaming around in Toyota Hilux pickups carrying bloody great bamboo "Whips" for encouraging the populace to prayer. They were not exactly shy at trying to bully anyone with the slightest skin tone with a (As Basil Fawlty would say) a damn good thrashing. One of my fellow ODP was spotted on one such trawl and the 8 enforcers climbed out of the APC wheels and started shouting "Prayer, Prayer and waving their toys around. We had been trying to sort out some problems with a joint owned GMC Jimny which was crap but it was wheels. Some quite minor injuries a bit like being caned but then we did not get anything like what the Philipino's got. They got a proper beasting any time they were seen out of work of home. My impression of the Saudi's is of a Jekyl and Hyde, nice as pie on their own or in the work place but when they were being watched by Al Mutawa, more like Nazi's than mates. I do not think it is as bad as some sources suggest but then I am not part of the great unwashed majority doing all the menial tasks. These are the folk with no blood relation to the house of Al Saud and their lives do not seem to be worth much. This is the part of the population that is agitating for change. Include the Palestinian refugee groups and you might well have some tinder ripe for burning. Much the same as another middle eastern country where F1 almost got involved not long ago. Not sure the law can keep control for ever.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 15:35:25 GMT
You misunderstand - I know that's not the root cause - I just wonder what it is that keeps people with such hard line views from choosing to live in a country with a matching ideology. The desire for world domination? Much the same thing that means they fight to stay here in any capacity is the reason they want to leave their country of origin. They know the law where they came from would not stand for the crap the talk, they would be arrested, beasted, tried and then killed. They would also be encouraged to give up the names of their friends and accomplices which as hard as they would try, they would give up. These countries have a zero policy for the likes of our radicals and anything seen as treason would end up the same way. Unless their waffle is supporting for example the Saudi Mosque views of the world. I think we should just get rid of them with png and a flight with nice shiny bracelets and a really good sedative like Ketamine. Shpould keep them tight until they get to chop chop square.
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Post by scouse on Jun 6, 2017 12:46:58 GMT
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 6, 2017 12:58:56 GMT
Hard to argue with any of that to be fair. I hate Piers Morgan but he had a point this morning when he asked why it is so easy to put banning orders on the travel of thousands of football supporters but so difficult to stop Jihads travelling in and out of the country?
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Post by Tim on Jun 6, 2017 13:26:12 GMT
I agree with some of that but surely our esteemed former Home Secretary could've got rid of whatever his name was that took 10 years to deport a lot quicker if she'd really wanted to, given the majority support of Parliament?
What Donald Trump tweeted was unforgiveable, there can be no excuses for that either.
Trotting out the line about the BBC is a predictable cheap shot, looking at them from what I consider a moderate viewpoint I constantly fail to see the left wing bias. Mind you if I was way out to the right most things would probably have that hue.....
In the same vein that we want the jihadis to piss off to a country they want to emulate I feel that (apparent) right wing commentators like this should piss off to the USA.
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Post by Tim on Jun 6, 2017 13:42:17 GMT
I've taken this quote from the BBC website on a story on the dispute between Trump and Sadiq Khan.
"White House adviser, Sebastian Gorka, meanwhile, has defended the president's comments, saying he was making a "very valid point".
He told BBC Newsnight: "We have to jettison political correctness. We have to apply honesty to the threat and saying, 'It's just business as usual, don't worry about a thing', [is] a Pollyannaish attitude to a threat that has killed 170 people in the last two years in Europe alone and maimed more than 700.""
I know we all know this won't happen but surely someone needs to go back to the Americans and query their own domestic shooting problem? The figures quoted are for the whole of Europe which has, I think, approx. twice the population of the USA. If they were reporting 85 shootings and 350 injuries in a 2 year period everyone would be surprised. Hell, that's probably the run rate for 1 month if your criteria is limited to disenfranchised, hillbilly white guys with bad teeth and odd haircuts......
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 6, 2017 13:44:15 GMT
I think the BBC gets fairly even amounts of post and emails complaining about left wing/right wing bias and I tend to spend as much time complaining about the liberal lefties in the Beeb as I do about the right wing establishment/status quo it promotes.
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Post by johnc on Jun 6, 2017 13:44:20 GMT
but surely our esteemed former Home Secretary could've got rid of whatever his name was that took 10 years to deport a lot quicker if she'd really wanted to, given the majority support of Parliament? She tried several times but had to abide by the law of the land. Parliament must never be, or consider itself to be, above the law.
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Post by Alex on Jun 6, 2017 13:54:18 GMT
but surely our esteemed former Home Secretary could've got rid of whatever his name was that took 10 years to deport a lot quicker if she'd really wanted to, given the majority support of Parliament? She tried several times but had to abide by the law of the land. Parliament must never be, or consider itself to be, above the law. I agree it's easy to want to rip up the rule book, chuck him on a plane and let him sue us later, but we wouldn't want the same applied to any of us if the government thought we'd said the wrong thing or held the wrong view.
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Post by Tim on Jun 6, 2017 14:21:19 GMT
No except they wanted to deport the guy to his country of origin (not sure if he had UK citizenship or not) whereas they couldn't send us 'home' because we're already there?
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Post by PG on Jun 6, 2017 18:47:34 GMT
but surely our esteemed former Home Secretary could've got rid of whatever his name was that took 10 years to deport a lot quicker if she'd really wanted to, given the majority support of Parliament? She tried several times but had to abide by the law of the land. Parliament must never be, or consider itself to be, above the law. From what I can remember, due process too bloody ages for him. Appeals after appeals. Then the fact that (under Human Rights legislation) you can't deport somebody to country that is thought to abuse uses torture (or something like that). Parliament was irrelevant - well unless they'd voted top leave the ECHR and repeal all that legislation. So for me, she gets credit for pure perseverance and finally got the fucker on a plane out of here.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 20:11:54 GMT
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Post by ChrisM on Jun 19, 2017 12:19:19 GMT
Never mind "Terrible week", it's becoming "Terrible month"..... what do we do now, ban white vans? Yet more outpouring of condolences for innocent vistims of lunatics' attacks
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Post by Ben on Jun 19, 2017 15:59:18 GMT
I'm just saddened by the frequency of these events. They cannot be allowed to become normal and commonplace.
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Post by johnc on Jun 19, 2017 17:13:04 GMT
.........and now the US have shot down a Syrian airforce jet which bombed rebels supported by the US and the Russians are stating that all US aircraft and drones will be considered to be targets. Oh what a wonderful, safe and secure world we live in. Apparently the US told the Russians the rebels were US backed and fighting IS (although against the Syrian regime) and a couple of hours later their positions were bombed by the Syrians, so they're all at it.
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