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Post by johnc on Jun 14, 2018 18:01:38 GMT
I just received a newsletter from a BMW dealer and included in it was this:
2018-06-04
Developments in road safety have taken a huge leap forward with a landmark EU proposal to mandate the fitting of lifesaving technologies, including Advanced Emergency Braking and Intelligent Speed Assistance, in all new cars.
The proposal is part of the European Commission’s Third Mobility Package, a set of measures with the aim of allowing all drivers to benefit from safer traffic, less polluting vehicles and more advanced technological solutions.
A survey of more than 2,000 drivers by road safety organisation Brake and the insurer Direct Line has found overwhelming support for the move, with 90% of drivers polled agreeing that all new cars should be fitted with the latest lifesaving safety features as standard.
However, the survey also highlighted a lack of awareness about AEB and ISA, and a reluctance to buy them as optional extras:
58% of drivers said they didn’t know what AEB was. When the technology was explained, only 15% thought their car was fitted with AEB, with 12% unsure.
67% of drivers said they didn’t know what ISA was. When the technology was explained, only 15% thought their car was fitted with ISA, with 7% unsure.
90% of drivers agreed that all new cars should be fitted with the latest lifesaving safety features as standard. However, the majority of drivers said if they were buying a new car, they would not spend more to ensure it had AEB or ISA technology.
This bolsters the Commission’s case that mandating these technologies is the best way to get them on our roads.
“These technologies are proven to save lives, so this announcement should be warmly welcomed by all who are truly committed to improving road safety,” Joshua Harris, Brake’s Director of Campaigns, said. “Drivers want their vehicles to be safe, but the reality is they rarely opt to spend more on safety features as optional extras. This decision puts the onus for safety back on car manufacturers and, in one swoop, will dramatically improve the safety of our roads forever.”
Neil Ingram, Head of Motor Product Management at Direct Line, added: “With improvements in the road casualty rate stalling, the fitting of AEB and ISA as standard on all new cars has the potential to be the step-change in road safety we have been looking for. Such technologies can also continue the progression and growth, as well as driver acceptance, of semi-autonomous vehicles and the benefits in safety they can bring.”
Like most people I thought ISA was where you put your savings but a quick google has left me somewhat perplexed - apparently this soon to be compulsory feature will sound warnings as soon as you exceed the speed limit and in some cases prevent the car exceeding the limit or make the accelerator pedal harder and harder to press if the limit is exceeded. Goodbye overtaking and goodbye any brief moments of pleasure behind the wheel. I see a big opportunity for sales of performance cars pre compulsory fitting! |
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Post by Martin on Jun 14, 2018 18:25:56 GMT
I thought ISA was functionality within the latest voodoo cruise systems, it adjusts your speed based on what the camera thinks the speed limit is, so is easily overridden by not using the cruise. In BMWs you can set a speed tolerance. I don’t have that, but I do have speed limit display which uses the cameras and works really wel, even picking up temporary limits in roadworks, variable speed limits on the lotoreay etc.
I hope that continues and you can still turn it off!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2018 7:43:38 GMT
Is that exceeding the limit road-specific? Obviously that will require the vehicle to know where it is.
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Post by Martin on Jun 15, 2018 8:21:25 GMT
Is that exceeding the limit road-specific? Obviously that will require the vehicle to know where it is. It uses a combination of the sat nav and windscreen camera to asses the legal speed. I wonder if that means it would drive past my house at 30mph, when 15mph is more than enough?! The actual speed displayed in my HUD goes red when it’s over the current limit, that’s the most nannying that goes on and you can turn that ‘feature’ off. I haven’t as it’s not particularly annoying/distracting and there’s bound to be a time that it will be useful. |
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Post by PG on Jun 15, 2018 11:45:56 GMT
The European Transport SAfety Council (ETSC) are the people pushing ISA. Here is their briefing paper on it. It will start off as switchable - like Eco and Stop-start, it would be on when you start the car and you can switch it off each time. But how long would that allowance last I wonder? I can see me keeping the Jag a long time if this sort of stuff becomes mandatory for use. etsc.eu/briefing-intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/ |
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Post by johnc on Jun 15, 2018 12:48:10 GMT
The European Transport SAfety Council (ETSC) are the people pushing ISA. Here is their briefing paper on it. It will start off as switchable - like Eco and Stop-start, it would be on when you start the car and you can switch it off each time. But how long would that allowance last I wonder? I can see me keeping the Jag a long time if this sort of stuff becomes mandatory for use. etsc.eu/briefing-intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/I feel really sorry for the generations after ours, eternally grateful for all the fun I have had in the past and a great regret that I didn't do even more than I have done already. |
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Post by PG on Jun 15, 2018 13:51:55 GMT
I feel really sorry for the generations after ours, eternally grateful for all the fun I have had in the past and a great regret that I didn't do even more than I have done already. We are lucky. We actually got to have some fun. The next generation will only be allowed "virtual fun" using technology. And even then only under close supervision and without any offence being caused, virtually, to anyone. Perhaps this will merely hasten the legalisation of class A drugs to keep the populace sedated and happy. Actually, when you see sci-fi films there are two distinct pictures the the future. One a brutal, harsh, tough world (the Bladerunner world) and one where we are all liberated and happy (the Star Trek world). |
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Post by racingteatray on Jun 17, 2018 20:26:11 GMT
God how tedious. I’ve just finished reading “The 100yr old man who climbed out of the window and disappeared” and I confess that more and more I’m starting to feel a great deal of sympathy for the sort of devil-may-care worldview held by the main titular protagonist.
If you’ve read the book you’ll know what I mean. If you haven’t, I really recommend that you do. Delightfully barmy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 10:36:48 GMT
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Post by Alex on Jun 18, 2018 11:35:05 GMT
God how tedious. I’ve just finished reading “The 100yr old man who climbed out of the window and disappeared” and I confess that more and more I’m starting to feel a great deal of sympathy for the sort of devil-may-care worldview held by the main titular protagonist. If you’ve read the book you’ll know what I mean. If you haven’t, I really recommend that you do. Delightfully barmy. It is quite a story that one and the film adaptation was also well worth the watch. |
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Post by scouse on Jun 18, 2018 12:17:24 GMT
The future's likely to be a version of Demolition Man, but without Wesley Snipes & Sylvester Stallone blowing shit up. Just the 'happy happy joy joy' bullshit where swearing gets you a fine and the police crying at the though of dealing with actual crime.
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Post by grampa on Jun 18, 2018 20:26:30 GMT
I'm so going to hang on to my Scirocco!
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Post by Blarno on Jun 19, 2018 10:25:37 GMT
The future's likely to be a version of Demolition Man, but without Wesley Snipes & Sylvester Stallone blowing shit up. Just the 'happy happy joy joy' bullshit where swearing gets you a fine and the police crying at the though of dealing with actual crime. I was going to say the exact same thing.
I'm off to buy an Oldsmobile 442 and hide it in an underground cave.
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Post by Tim on Jun 19, 2018 14:18:17 GMT
I'm guessing that the Brake/Direct Line questionnaire asked the question
"Developments in road safety have taken a huge leap forward with a landmark EU proposal to mandate the fitting of lifesaving technologies,do you agree/disagree with the proposal to fit them"
without specifying what these technologies actually were.
From the Brake stataement about the evils of oveertaking in another thread I suspect they would mould the question to give them the answer they want.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Jun 26, 2018 8:15:55 GMT
The public are idiots. They have no idea what they want, say one thing in surveys and then say or do the opposite in reality. Most of the driving public probably don't even know if they have ABS or not.
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Post by PG on Jun 26, 2018 10:15:24 GMT
From the Brake stataement about the evils of oveertaking in another thread I suspect they would mould the question to give them the answer they want. Indeed. All surveys can be asked in such a way to get the required answer, as can all reports be used to selectively give the required answer. Which is why 99% of them are crap. And why I hate it when the news says "a report today says that..." because you just know it is flawed thing and that if the news didn't agree with the report's stance then they'd never use it. |
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Post by humphreythepug on Jun 26, 2018 10:34:24 GMT
From Jan 2019 (I think it is) all cars type approved from then have to have some form of WiFi, this is for an SOS function so in the event of a crash the emergency services are automatically notified.
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Post by alf on Jun 26, 2018 11:46:29 GMT
I think it will be a fair while before our vehicles are actually controlling our speed, though it will probably be less time than some people think before driverless cars are the norm.
That's an interesting one, I attend road safety events a lot with work and experts seem sure than the era of driven/driverless cars on the roads together will potentially be very dangerous, drivers do not treat driverless cars in the same way and will take liberties with them, knowing they will brake/let them in/etc.
I see France rolled out lower speed limits recently nationwide on their equivalent of our "A" roads, the results of that will be interesting. In an era when we can easily eat/drinks/smoke our way to an early death at the financial and emotional expense of other citizens, road safety rules that effectively limit personal freedom may (hopefully, if we make it so, will) come under scrutiny to prove they are actually effective value for the associated limitations of our freedoms. I don't feel the bigger picture is ever fairly described - it's always "speeding = bad, obesity = personal freedom". And that's BS.
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Post by PG on Jun 26, 2018 13:07:04 GMT
That's an interesting one, I attend road safety events a lot with work and experts seem sure than the era of driven/driverless cars on the roads together will potentially be very dangerous, drivers do not treat driverless cars in the same way and will take liberties with them, knowing they will brake/let them in/etc. There was an article in Autocar about a British firm that is working on driverless technology. They said we were way off a realistic UK based driverless car. For several reasons that I've never seen debated before - Potholes - teaching a car how to deal with them and the myriad types of them - shallow, deep, wide, water filled etc Roundabouts - not many of them in the US where the technology comes from (and they of course have totally different rules on filtering, turning right on red etc - which will require changes for every market) Absence of white lines on many UK roads and poor road line maintenance - it seems driverless cars need the lines to know exactly where they are as GPS may not be accurate enough. So that will work really well on unmarked country roads, housing estates, roadworks, contraflows etc. And what about when it snows! We drive on the left - every bit of logic is different between driving on the right and driving on the left. Might also make taking your UK spec driverless car on holiday to Europe rather tricky... |
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Post by johnc on Jun 26, 2018 13:22:15 GMT
Maybe they will get Audi to programme all the driverless cars to ensure they close up and leave no gaps for others to get into and tailgate you into submission and letting them past. These cars will of course have no speed limiters fitted.
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Post by alf on Jun 26, 2018 15:02:20 GMT
Interesting points there PG. On the one hand driving uses so many different motor and mental skills with so much variety, and such serious penalties for getting it wrong, I sometimes wonder if it will be almost impossibly difficult to automate on the existing road network. On the other hand, over 20 years working in IT has taught me that the one constant when it comes to the pace of technological change, particularly in the last hundred years, is that it is always far faster than we expect.
One example. Around the millennium, a thousand dollars bought computing power equivalent to an insect's brain. Around 2030, it will buy computing power equivalent to a human brain. Between 2045 and 2050, it is estimated a thousand dollars will buy the computing power of all human brains on the planet. Driving a car from A to B is not going to be a challenge to computational power like that. There will be a lot more than a thousand dollar's worth of computational power in a driverless car.
There was an interesting piece in The Economist about this, suggesting that automated cars will lead to massive consolidation in the industry because everyone will go for the products that get it right. If one massive OEM's car quotes one accident per 100,000 miles driving and a smaller one quotes one per 20,000 miles, which would you buy?
Alternatively, another approach (which would be better, I think) would be for the mapping and the decision making software algorithms to be shared as open source between all car makers, due to the human impact (saved lives), they would pay the same amount per unit, leaving car makers to focus on the distinctive hardware, much as they do now, when we are the main factor in accidents, not the vehicles. Innovation in the mapping/software side would be lower with the second example, however.
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Post by chipbutty on Jun 26, 2018 16:09:00 GMT
I think true vehicle autonomy is multiple decades away yet. I've no doubt a half way house of computer controlled motorways is on the cards - but the car making independent decisions is still pie in the sky stuff.
I came to this opinion as I was leaving a Tesla retailer after a test drive of a Model S (complete with autonomous driving demo).
We approached a very busy roundabout in Birmingham - so busy in fact, that the volume of cars + traffic light phasing meant there was no space for any car to move onto the roundabout from the entrance. The way humans get round this is by pushing into traffic and/or using eye contact to force a space were there is none.
A current driver less system would have kept the car stationary for hours on end because it will never allow a car to move into a position of danger or collision and because the sensors and software does not exist to read the body language and hand gestures of other road users in order to make a judgement call as to whether to move or not.
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Post by scouse on Jun 27, 2018 10:56:36 GMT
I saw something about AI a while ago and the guy said the real problem was getting the computer to understand context. He gave the example of the following situation:
It's raining, there is a open door to a building, with a clown in it and a sign that says 'free hugs'.
Now a person would automatically know that this is actually a suspect situation, it is incredibly difficult to programme the computer to know that although shelter is a good thing when raining, clowns are funny and getting a hug is a good thing, in this type of situation the opposite is true.
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Post by alf on Jun 27, 2018 13:18:40 GMT
This is the problem I suppose. Even given vast artificial intelligence, the programming is likely to be a weakness, we can't program everything in. That then requires self-learning, but we learn as living beings based on millions of years of evolution, AI will presumably learn in a very different way and with no instinct, and no childhood (where you have years of being a functioning being but are broadly shielded from the outcomes of your decisions).
Given the vast levels of AI coming soon, the Matrix-type scenario where the machines outwit us is a real concern.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jun 27, 2018 13:44:41 GMT
That's an interesting one, I attend road safety events a lot with work and experts seem sure than the era of driven/driverless cars on the roads together will potentially be very dangerous, drivers do not treat driverless cars in the same way and will take liberties with them, knowing they will brake/let them in/etc. There was an article in Autocar about a British firm that is working on driverless technology. They said we were way off a realistic UK based driverless car. For several reasons that I've never seen debated before - Potholes - teaching a car how to deal with them and the myriad types of them - shallow, deep, wide, water filled etc Roundabouts - not many of them in the US where the technology comes from (and they of course have totally different rules on filtering, turning right on red etc - which will require changes for every market) Absence of white lines on many UK roads and poor road line maintenance - it seems driverless cars need the lines to know exactly where they are as GPS may not be accurate enough. So that will work really well on unmarked country roads, housing estates, roadworks, contraflows etc. And what about when it snows! We drive on the left - every bit of logic is different between driving on the right and driving on the left. Might also make taking your UK spec driverless car on holiday to Europe rather tricky... Judging by the number of drivers I see who can't deal with potholes, can't manage roundabouts correctly, and even with white lines can't position themselves on the roads, I don't think autonomous cars have a particularly high bar to aim at. |
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Post by Tim on Jun 27, 2018 14:39:17 GMT
I agree with that. Presumably self-driving cars will only use main roads as well, in the same way that satnav usually does?
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