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Post by PG on May 8, 2018 9:33:23 GMT
I was pondering this the other day. Our Shogun hit 9 years old last month and has covered 73k miles. Up to 8 years old it was tight to drive and apart from servicing had never cost a penny in unplanned maintenance. It has towed a lot, so has not had a totally stress free life. But in the past year it has had quite a few issues - engine decoke required; brake calipers, discs and pads when the brakes were seizing and anew back section to the exhaust. It also had a new battery and four new tyres - but we can hardly complain about those at this mileage as this was the first change.
But my comment about ageing is not just when does stuff start to go wrong or have to be changed. It is more subtle. I'd say in the past six months the Shogun has started to feel a bit slack and baggy. It is noiser, (engine and driveline); the suspension less compliant; the gearbox is a bit slack. Basically it feels a bit tired.
So my thinking is that whilst modern engines should do many, many miles, the rest of the car still "ages" at the same point that it always used to - about 70,000 miles. I've noticed that 70,000 mile change in most cars we've owned.
What do we think? Is 70,000 miles still the point at which we notice a car beginning to age?
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Post by johnc on May 8, 2018 9:53:10 GMT
I can't say I have noticed the deterioration based on mileage particularly. All cars feel better when its warm and all the bushes are a bit softer or more compliant.
I tend to notice it when the weather gets colder and you get the odd rattle or knock that the car didn't have when it was newer: it's at that point my mind starts to turn to something new.
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Post by Martin on May 8, 2018 9:58:28 GMT
It’s really difficult to notice, I think you’d have to do a back to back with a much newer and/or lower mileage version. I suspect the ride has deteriorated in the BMW over time(it’s on 96k miles) as it’s not quite as smooth as I think it used to be, but that could just be due to driving other cars recently. Everything else feels as it always has and better than it did over the winter.
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Post by grampa on May 8, 2018 10:00:11 GMT
Our 12 year old Mini still drives like new but then it has only done 63,000 miles - and it's still pretty good cosmetically - only the plastic trim no longer looks new (unless it's just been revived) - my daughter's new to her Kuga is a 58 plate and cosmetically very little marks it out being anything more than 2 years old - just a few nose chips and a slightly creased bolster on the driver's seat - drive wise, it's the only one I've driven but it still feels tight as a drum - that's at 85,000 miles.
The outgoing Jag X-Type at 141,000 miles also felt pretty good - a little bit of trim rattle in the rear, but no general 'bagginess' and the drive train still felt good and it was still very quiet - but again it's 14 years since I drove a new example so hard to make a direct comparison.
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Post by LandieMark on May 8, 2018 10:49:06 GMT
It's difficult to detect. My Legacy needed a suspension refresh before I got shot of it as it was noticeably low at the rear and I suspect a lot of the standard bushes had had it. I didn't realise that the TVR suspension had seen better days until I put the new stuff on.
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Post by Tim on May 8, 2018 12:30:20 GMT
All the things listed on the Shogun should probably be considered as wear and tear items now. As the engines and bodywork last longer you'll be more aware of things like slacker gearchange and baggy feeling suspension - it's probably just the bushes. Replace them and it'll feel more solid.
With BMWs I reckon suspension will need to start to be looked at around 70k although the bushes that need done on the 320 have apparently been replaced already so change no2 is going to be at around 95k.
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Post by Boxer6 on May 8, 2018 14:14:54 GMT
It's difficult to detect. My Legacy needed a suspension refresh before I got shot of it as it was noticeably low at the rear and I suspect a lot of the standard bushes had had it. I didn't realise that the TVR suspension had seen better days until I put the new stuff on. Yes, mine will be due some new Bilsteins on the back at some point fairly soon, to complement the new fronts last summer.
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Post by Blarno on May 8, 2018 15:35:24 GMT
My SAAB is definitely showing signs of age. It's recently turned 10 years old and has 155k on the clock - the driver's seat bolster leather is cracking off and there are a few knocks from the suspension, especially at the rear. I know this isn't the anti roll bar links as I just replaced them. Hopefully, I can get it through the MOT next week and then crack on with sorting the suspension out. Needs a pair of rear tyres as well, but I can't complain: I've done 30k on them an they weren't new when I got the car.
Other than that, it doesn't feel like an old, leggy car.
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Post by chipbutty on May 8, 2018 16:31:41 GMT
A significant factor in what makes a car feel it's age is something that is difficult to get some quality data on.
As a car ages, it's structure is subject to significant load during day to day use that weaken the structure, by which I mean the metal and the spot welds (extremes of temperature and climate, daily suspension loads and the odd massive pot hole, vibrations and loads from the powertrain, etc).
I do know that early carbon fibre tubs (such as that used on the update EB110) would lose 30% of their structural strength just through ageing alone (10 year period). I am not a materials engineer, so I don't know how steel or aluminium compares - but I would expect that the body shell of a 5 year old car is noticeably less rigid than when it was factory fresh.
If this is the case - you can change all the suspension bits and pieces you want, the car will never drive or feel like it did when it was new.
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Post by grampa on May 8, 2018 17:17:57 GMT
I am not a materials engineer, so I don't know how steel or aluminium compares - but I would expect that the body shell of a 5 year old car is noticeably less rigid than when it was factory fresh. How does that affect my 56 year old Morris Minor?!
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Post by ChrisM on May 9, 2018 7:22:50 GMT
Apart from some tiredness in the suspension and some rust, my Honda felt almost as tight at 18 years of age as it did when new. The 820 felt tired in suspension and engine department when I traded it in at 8 years of age, but I don't recall any rust. Both the above cars had done over 100,000 when I changed them
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Post by Boxer6 on May 9, 2018 14:30:47 GMT
It's difficult to detect. My Legacy needed a suspension refresh before I got shot of it as it was noticeably low at the rear and I suspect a lot of the standard bushes had had it. I didn't realise that the TVR suspension had seen better days until I put the new stuff on. Yes, mine will be due some new Bilsteins on the back at some point fairly soon, to complement the new fronts last summer. Well the answer according to Subaru (or their dealer at least) is 9 1/2 years old! In for its 120K service today plus investigation of various odds and sods; sufficiently concerning to me that I hired another Mokka for 10 days so I didn't have to drive it! (A whole other story I won't bore you all with).
Anyway, apparently there's work potentially costing a goodly percentage of an ALF which would need done to return the car to mechanically pristine condition, but nothing that would compromise it's ability to pass the next MOT - carefully didn't mention next years or the one after that! It does need new rear drop links and new coolant (which I suspected anyway) and possibly a replacement thermostat - remains to be seen. Harumph.
It saddens me to report the Legacy may be on the start of its road out from my ownership, but I can't afford to let my heart rule my head as much as I love it. Ho hum.
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Post by alf on May 9, 2018 15:05:05 GMT
I think it varies a lot with the care and use of it, as well as the type. But I do think somewhere between 60-80k miles, and for me around 6 years old, you do start to feel changes usually.
The XFR looks mint outside and in, besides some stone chipping (nothing like as bad on some cars I've had, but it's always there on the nose and screen of high mileage cars) but mechanically the steering and suspension feel their age. I noticed it really badly after the Jag test day I did. The 330i was the same whenever I had a nearly new 3 series loan car. There is just some bagginess in the steering and suspension movement, some vibrations on some surfaces that feel a bit like a slightly warped disc. Occasional but there if you look for it! The Passat V6, A4 2.0T, and 156GTA were much the same, but whereas the drivetrains of the others all felt fine, the A4 started some turbo weirdness around 70k miles that changing some of the bypass seals and so on did not totally cure - it hung on to revs in gearchanges in a weird way that only familiarity with it would have revealed.
Of that lot, the 330i and the Passat's Audi derived V6 ran fine but both started using oil, both burning it and dripping it slightly, well before 6 figure mileages. Changing stuff (the BMW was still under warranty) did not fix it and BMW straight 6 petrols are known for their "burning candle" smell at higher miles. Small amounts, but there. The XFR V8 is not using oil at all and of all the engines I've used feels the tightest at higher mileages. Impressive.
Of Mrs ALF's cars, the current C Max was rattling a lot inside from less than 3 years/30k (which, curable driver's window on the XFR aside, my cars have not done at far higher mileages). It also has some odd turbo induction/wastegate stuff going on.The Focus was a totall mess inside, falling apart, but the 2 litre NA petrol engine and the gearbox felt spot on even 8 years old, and never used oil - neither did the Civic Type R or Gold 1.6FSi - although the latter had an appetite for EDC valves.
For me, they can look great, but by 30m ish miles and a couple of years old you can spot differences with a new car. As you get towards 6 figure mileages and certainly by 6-8 years old there is bagginess there, but in isolation the car will feel fine if looked after. It's just very different from a new one. That's one reason I tend to buy around 2-4 years old and keep for 3 ish years. The other being depreciation.
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Post by grampa on May 9, 2018 17:44:31 GMT
It saddens me to report the Legacy may be on the start of its road out from my ownership, but I can't afford to let my heart rule my head as much as I love it. Ho hum.
I would, and I know I will at some stage in order to continue my ownership of the Scirocco - all my cars are bought and owned with my heart ruling my head - otherwise, to start with, I'd have one less car and the Minor would long since have been scrapped - and I would own something with a much smaller and more economical engine. When we were running a Ka, everytime I drove it, the thought occurred to me that in reality it was all the car that we would ever need, but needing and wanting are two very different things!
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