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Post by ChrisM on Oct 9, 2017 20:28:20 GMT
Anyone else think that authorities are now massively over-reacting and spreading panic unnecessarily?
I read over the week-end that there was a car crash in/near Exhibition Road in London where there are a few well-known museums. The car driver involved was apparently wrestled from his vehicle and pinned by police to the pavement - a bit of a shock if you've just had a seizure or whatever and driven onto the pavement, injuring a few pedestrians. Then the whole area gets cordoned off so some diners can't get their car keys, wallets etc for a few hours.... all because of an RTA.
A couple of week-ends ago a young pillock dropped a bag of something off a motorway bridge at Winchester, resulting in the police and authorities closing the M3 in both directions for almost 12 hours on a busy Saturday, gridlocking Winchester and the surrounding area for the day - only the previous day another minor incident had the authorities panicking and closing the M3 for many hours.
A few weeks prior to that another "suspicious" package resulted in the M1 being closed somewhere near Milton Keynes, also inflicting misery and delays to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousand of innocent people.
It appears that the terrorists have won, causing disruption to significant numbers of ordinary people going about their normal business by striking fear into a few select bods in authority, resulting in mass evacuations for no reason at all, other than that they cannot identify something that has been left by the side of the road (or similar).
Anyone else agree that this is massive over-=reaction and maybe those in authority should take a better approach, and be able to identify "suspicious" objects or whatever, a darned sight more quickly than they currently seem capable of doing? To me, it doesn't say much for our "intelligence" if a bag containing meths or whatever is mistaken for a national terrorist incident
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Post by Tim on Oct 10, 2017 9:59:13 GMT
Someone dropped something off a bridge up here (can't remember where exactly) at the weekend but there were no reports of any road closures.
You're right though, Chris.
I still don't understand the fascination of these mental health sufferers (I really don't think many of them should be credited as terrorists) attacking somewhere like London.
If they really wanted to do something spectacular then why not detonate a bomb on a train going across the Forth Bridge, or something.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 10:58:53 GMT
Read a book called The Culture of Fear - says all that needs to be said about it and works as a suitable inoculation.
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Post by Ben on Oct 10, 2017 13:59:27 GMT
I just think you can't win in the current situation we're in. Pretty much most of the terrorist attacks of late came from nothing, with little prior warning. So I'm not surprised that the authorites prefer to err on the side of caution.
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Post by Boxer6 on Oct 10, 2017 17:53:40 GMT
Someone dropped something off a bridge up here (can't remember where exactly) at the weekend but there were no reports of any road closures. You're right though, Chris. I still don't understand the fascination of these mental health sufferers (I really don't think many of them should be credited as terrorists) attacking somewhere like London. If they really wanted to do something spectacular then why not detonate a bomb on a train going across the Forth Bridge, or something. Bit of an "iffy" comment to make on World Mental Health Day! While there may well be a marked difference in thought processes from ours, they're NOT mentally ill (for the most part) IMHO. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 10, 2017 19:36:08 GMT
Someone dropped something off a bridge up here (can't remember where exactly) at the weekend but there were no reports of any road closures. You're right though, Chris. I still don't understand the fascination of these mental health sufferers (I really don't think many of them should be credited as terrorists) attacking somewhere like London. If they really wanted to do something spectacular then why not detonate a bomb on a train going across the Forth Bridge, or something. Bit of an "iffy" comment to make on World Mental Health Day! While there may well be a marked difference in thought processes from ours, they're NOT mentally ill (for the most part) IMHO. There's an argument that adherence to any religion is a sign of mental illness. |
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Post by Boxer6 on Oct 10, 2017 20:01:01 GMT
Bit of an "iffy" comment to make on World Mental Health Day! While there may well be a marked difference in thought processes from ours, they're NOT mentally ill (for the most part) IMHO. There's an argument that adherence to any religion is a sign of mental illness. Indeed, and one that I often feel is justified if I'm honest! |
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Post by Tim on Oct 11, 2017 9:22:31 GMT
Sorry, I didn't mean it any kind of offensive way.
It's simply that some of the recent 'attacks', such as the Westminster Bridge one, have been perpetrated by people who subsequently appear to have had some sort of mental issue and have almost acted out of character and attributed it to the name of something else.
I'd also put the mass killing in the Florida nightclub last year into that category as the guy was clearly suffering extreme mental anguish over his sexuality, perhaps heightened by his religious background.
A close relative had a breakdown 3 years ago. It was simply caused by work pressure and the guilt of the loss of his son (who he had only just got back in touch with after 20 years) to a drug overdose that all lead to him not sleeping and consequently having the breakdown and being sectioned.
The results were incredible (not sure that's the right word) as, on the day,he was having intense conversations with himself, admitting to things he hadn't done and writhing around on the floor hitting himself and it.
The recovery was startlingly rapid, he was simply pumped full of sleeping tablets for a week.
However it would be fair to say that he is still 'not right' but as an example of how someone completely sensible, straightforward and rational can undergo a fundamental change on the basis of their own perception of things - that becomes increasingly distorted - I would say that in my opinion some of the recent actions have been as a result of mental health issues, whether they be temporary or not.
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Post by michael on Oct 11, 2017 9:30:49 GMT
It's not a mental health issue, it's a religious ideology issue. In some states of the US parents can have their children sectioned on mental health grounds and some choose to do so when they find out their children are gay. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a mental health issue.
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Post by Tim on Oct 11, 2017 9:35:31 GMT
If its religious ideology then why have they waited so long?
The Westminster guy was in his 40s or 50s.
I would agree with Bob's point about religion.
Presumably if their chosen one revolved around, say, fairies then they'd build a shrine at the bottom of their garden (because that's where fairies live, isn't it?) and eventually decide that they could fly, hence chucking themselves off something quite high.
That kind of divorce from reality is all happening inside your head, thus a mental health issue.
The fact that I don't like it isn't relevant.
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Post by michael on Oct 11, 2017 9:39:44 GMT
They haven't waited they've been radicalised. Generally speaking online through a multitude of channels now available to spread hate which is increasingly resonating with a receptive audience.
To say it's a mental health issue suggests finding a suitable mental health intervention to solve the problem. Do that and the problem won't be solved. The problem is Islam and dealing with that is the only way to prevent these events.
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Post by Tim on Oct 11, 2017 9:52:37 GMT
I disagree.
The problem is what you find acceptable - who in their right mind would think that any of those actions was reasonable?
I don't think you can pin the Las Vegas one on Islam either.
I don't want to get into a debate about Islam either but to say that it is at fault doesn't appear to be correct, it's just a certain interpretation of it but then you could say that about Christianity too.
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Post by michael on Oct 11, 2017 9:58:03 GMT
Then you're shying away from the problem. Yes there are other terrorists activities, but Islamic terrorism is the reason we're on high alert. Islam is not a religion of peace which is not to say that the vast majority of its practitioners are not peaceful, they are. Islam needs reform, Christianity has had it but from the outset was a peaceful religion - turn the other cheek, love thy neighbour etc.
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Post by Tim on Oct 11, 2017 10:04:46 GMT
As far as I understand Islam also includes things like Turn the other cheek, love thy neighbour, etc.
I agree that Islam has a problem at present but for a long time it didn't and perhaps a lot of the current issue is that the leaders are 'behind the curve' on the way it is being interpreted.
I'd say there is also clearly a deep-rooted reluctance to agree with our western thinking that there is a problem but I feel some of that can be blamed on us (the West) as we've hardly done them any favours in the last 25 years.
Again, all religion should probably be banned.
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Post by michael on Oct 11, 2017 10:09:40 GMT
As far as I understand Islam also includes things like Turn the other cheek, love thy neighbour, etc. You understand wrong. The Quran has enough about killing and revenge in it to make Game of Thrones look like like Tom and Jerry. |
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Post by Tim on Oct 11, 2017 10:13:22 GMT
As far as I understand Islam also includes things like Turn the other cheek, love thy neighbour, etc. You understand wrong. The Quran has enough about killing and revenge in it to make Game of Thrones look like like Tom and Jerry. Ok, I'll defer to your greater knowledge. As with the Bible I'm absolutely NEVER going to read it. 
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Post by michael on Oct 11, 2017 10:18:13 GMT
You probably should if you want to understand why we are on high alert and our way of life is being affected. It's to do with what is written in these books.
The big difference between Christianity and Islam is that Jesus was never recorded saying things like 'slay non believers'. The religion we have problems with does.
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Post by Roadrunner on Oct 11, 2017 12:06:06 GMT
You probably should if you want to understand why we are on high alert and our way of life is being affected. It's to do with what is written in these books. The big difference between Christianity and Islam is that Jesus was never recorded saying things like 'slay non believers'. The religion we have problems with does. Agreed. I would never dismiss anything from a point of ignorance. Read, understand and then come to your own, informed, views.
Don't dismiss all members of a group just because a very small, but loud, minority are causing trouble. Otherwise we end up in the same teritory as those who say all football fans are hooligans who smash up bars, or all drivers of fast cars are irresponsible, dangerous drivers.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 11, 2017 13:59:26 GMT
You probably should if you want to understand why we are on high alert and our way of life is being affected. It's to do with what is written in these books. The big difference between Christianity and Islam is that Jesus was never recorded saying things like 'slay non believers'. The religion we have problems with does. Agreed. I would never dismiss anything from a point of ignorance. Read, understand and then come to your own, informed, views.
Don't dismiss all members of a group just because a very small, but loud, minority are causing trouble. Otherwise we end up in the same teritory as those who say all football fans are hooligans who smash up bars, or all drivers of fast cars are irresponsible, dangerous drivers.
Is it a very small minority? Surveys would tend to suggest that even muslims who have lived the UK their lives have very different views to others: www.channel4.com/info/press/news/c4-survey-and-documentary-reveals-what-british-muslims-really-think23% support Sharia in the UK, 66% wouldn't inform the police if they knew someone who was getting involved with people who support terrorism. These are the moderate, educated UK muslims. Put the same survey out in other parts of the world and I'm sure you'd be horrified. |
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Post by Blarno on Oct 11, 2017 14:13:36 GMT
I have a problem with all religion.
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Post by michael on Oct 11, 2017 14:25:06 GMT
Don't dismiss all members of a group just because a very small, but loud, minority are causing trouble. Otherwise we end up in the same teritory as those who say all football fans are hooligans who smash up bars, or all drivers of fast cars are irresponsible, dangerous drivers.
I haven't dismissed all members of a group. It's a problem with the religion not necessarily the followers, as I pointed out earlier, most of them are peaceful living. That doesn't make Islam a religion of peace, however. It is not. |
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Post by Ben on Oct 11, 2017 14:39:51 GMT
The problem is with the interpretation. It's the extreme few that interprets the religion as a license to kill, whereas the majority of the peaceful ones follow a more moderate stance.
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Post by Boxer6 on Oct 11, 2017 21:08:37 GMT
Then you're shying away from the problem. Yes there are other terrorists activities, but Islamic terrorism is the reason we're on high alert. Islam is not a religion of peace which is not to say that the vast majority of its practitioners are not peaceful, they are. Islam needs reform, Christianity has had it but from the outset was a peaceful religion - turn the other cheek, love thy neighbour etc. Really? Most of the Old Testament is pretty bloodthirsty and not a little recessive and retaliatory. And what about the Crusades? The Inquisition? To name but two. My overall stance on religion is very similar to Blarnos', in fact. I have a problem with all of them, and for not dissimilar reasons to yours Michael. |
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Post by Roadsterstu on Oct 12, 2017 8:29:21 GMT
Coming back to Chris's original point, whilst I think we really do need to speed up how we deal with things where huge public inconvenience is caused when the infrastructure is disrupted, do I think it is a massive overreaction? No. We are at a high state of alert where an attack is considered highly likely. A car ploughs off the road in central London, near a busy tourist attraction and the driver is removed from the car and held until the police arrive. Good. Supposing the car was packed with gas cylinders that had failed to explode? Supposing the police then graded that as a RTC and arrived much less quickly? I think, given the state of things at the moment, it was dealt with absolutely properly and it was ascertained fairly quickly that it wasn't a terror incident.
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Post by michael on Oct 12, 2017 9:09:11 GMT
Then you're shying away from the problem. Yes there are other terrorists activities, but Islamic terrorism is the reason we're on high alert. Islam is not a religion of peace which is not to say that the vast majority of its practitioners are not peaceful, they are. Islam needs reform, Christianity has had it but from the outset was a peaceful religion - turn the other cheek, love thy neighbour etc. Really? Most of the Old Testament is pretty bloodthirsty and not a little recessive and retaliatory. And what about the Crusades? The Inquisition? To name but two. My overall stance on religion is very similar to Blarnos', in fact. I have a problem with all of them, and for not dissimilar reasons to yours Michael. The Crusades and the Inquisition weren't in the Old Testament. They are however a good example how Christianity has moved on and reformed and you could say Islam is going through a similar Crusade type phase, relatively speaking, it's a new religion after all. My point is correct, however. Christianity, the teachings of Christ, was peaceful from the outset. The Old Testament, as I'm sure you know, is an ancient collection of Hebrew stories from well before Jesus shared largely with Judaism and you're right, there are plenty of examples of genocide in there in the name of God and more often than not God dishing out the genocide to non-believers and his own. The message of the Bible is that Jesus comes along and shows a more caring, sharing way and in it he doesn't incite violence, quite the opposite in fact. These are largely the teachings of Christianity today unlike Islam which has some key leaders who, today, continue to incite violence and preach about values very different to our own which is obviously where the problems arise. The key point is the religion need reform and to continue to reform. There are Islamic scholars who are trying to do this and some of their contemporaries have declared them as blasphemers, some killed and this even happened recently in the UK. You might remember the shop keeper Asad Shah who has murdered in Glasgow, he was killed because his take on Islam differed to another take on Islam - his was essentially more progressive. The thing any religion hates more than a non-believe is a reformer because religion, all religion, is about power and control. I'd also caution being dismissive of religion, to not believe in 'God' or the concept makes you an anomaly in the world now and historically. Throughout all recorded history, regardless of where you look in the world, people have believed in God or some higher power. Many of the most ancient structure that exist today are a testament to the importance of belief to others. Regardless of why it is important to people, it gives many comfort and it gives many purpose so I personally find it quite disrespectful to be dismissive of that. It is without doubt part of the human condition and it could probably be argued that those who don't believe are the more likely to have the mental health condition. I include myself in the latter. |
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Post by Tim on Oct 12, 2017 11:42:44 GMT
The Americans regularly profess their love of God, call themselves Christian and yet perpetrate a lot of acts of violence, both amongst themselves and against others (which is undoubtedly a contributing factor to our current situation). Still, I suppose that's alright because they're bigger than us and carry a heavier stick |
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Post by michael on Oct 12, 2017 11:45:39 GMT
Can you give an example of when they've done that in the name of god?
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Post by johnc on Oct 12, 2017 11:59:14 GMT
I've said before on these pages, I had a very pretty Muslim girl who worked for me about 15 years ago. She wore normal clothes and no headscarf etc and fitted in very well. She was having boyfriend problems and I told her I had plenty of very nice single friends I could introduce her to if she wanted. She went deadly serious and said that if she went out with a white boy her brother and his friends would kill him. I half laughed and she left me in no two minds that she did mean kill. For me, regardless of which religion it is, that kind of intolerance and unwillingness to integrate is totally unacceptable: it is permanently divisive. |
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Post by PG on Oct 12, 2017 12:43:47 GMT
It's the hypocrisy that gets me.
If, tomorrow, I published a book that said, not only that I wanted to kill people who did not agree with my views, but that it was the duty of everyone who shared my views to go out and also kill people, we'd all get arrested. Yet religions can venerate books like the old testament and the quoran that do incite violence and hatred. And be protected from prosecution.
We went from the dark ages to putting people on the moon faster than the time it took the Church of England to allow women priests. And we'll probably colonise other planets before Islam or Catholicism allow women to be anything but second class citizens. And yet society has laws against sexual discrimination. Which religions are allowed to ignore.
Every time I see some African Anglican bishop railing about gay people, I'd like to get a sound engineer to edit his voice and substitute "black person" for "homosexual" and then play it back and ask him if he thought his views were acceptable.
Like michael, I believe that that we do all need to have beliefs. We can even be god fearing - I might even be that. But religion is man-made system of control and coercion. Those that have not had enlightenments or do not meet all the laws of the land or it's expected behaviours must be called out for that.
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Post by scouse on Oct 12, 2017 12:50:10 GMT
Really? Most of the Old Testament is pretty bloodthirsty and not a little recessive and retaliatory. And what about the Crusades? The Inquisition? To name but two. My overall stance on religion is very similar to Blarnos', in fact. I have a problem with all of them, and for not dissimilar reasons to yours Michael. The Crusades and the Inquisition weren't in the Old Testament. They are however a good example how Christianity has moved on and reformed and you could say Islam is going through a similar Crusade type phase, relatively speaking, it's a new religion after all. My point is correct, however. Christianity, the teachings of Christ, was peaceful from the outset. The Old Testament, as I'm sure you know, is an ancient collection of Hebrew stories from well before Jesus shared largely with Judaism and you're right, there are plenty of examples of genocide in there in the name of God and more often than not God dishing out the genocide to non-believers and his own. The message of the Bible is that Jesus comes along and shows a more caring, sharing way and in it he doesn't incite violence, quite the opposite in fact. These are largely the teachings of Christianity today unlike Islam which has some key leaders who, today, continue to incite violence and preach about values very different to our own which is obviously where the problems arise. The key point is the religion need reform and to continue to reform. There are Islamic scholars who are trying to do this and some of their contemporaries have declared them as blasphemers, some killed and this even happened recently in the UK. You might remember the shop keeper Asad Shah who has murdered in Glasgow, he was killed because his take on Islam differed to another take on Islam - his was essentially more progressive. The thing any religion hates more than a non-believe is a reformer because religion, all religion, is about power and control. I'd also caution being dismissive of religion, to not believe in 'God' or the concept makes you an anomaly in the world now and historically. Throughout all recorded history, regardless of where you look in the world, people have believed in God or some higher power. Many of the most ancient structure that exist today are a testament to the importance of belief to others. Regardless of why it is important to people, it gives many comfort and it gives many purpose so I personally find it quite disrespectful to be dismissive of that. It is without doubt part of the human condition and it could probably be argued that those who don't believe are the more likely to have the mental health condition. I include myself in the latter. What is (deliberately, IMO) overlooked these days is that the Crusades where a response to Islamic aggression and expansion. |
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