|
Post by PG on Feb 8, 2024 13:33:12 GMT
Interesting article on Autocar online this morning. Per their CEO, it seems that two years ago Ford started a skunk-works project to build "a low-cost EV platform". The article went on to say: "Investment in higher-volume, lower-cost electric cars – likely destined to serve as indirect successors to the Fiesta and Focus – comes in response to Ford’s finding that most buyers are unwilling to pay over the odds to go electric." No shit! "Farley added that .... Ford struggled to find buyers for the cars it had built as it realised that – after the early EV adopters were on board – mainstream buyers were not prepared to pay a premium to go electric. “As the Covid shock retreated, we learned that as you scale EVs to 5000-7000 units a month and you move into the [majority of customers], they are not willing to pay a significant premium for EVs,” said Farley."Well, again, who would have thought it? Technology always goes through an early adopter phase where prices can be premium. But prices have to come down - either through economies of scale or just sheer market pressure - for volume acceptance. Look at big TV's for example. But with EV's of course there is the other unmentionable issue that adds to that economic truth. All prior new technology has been (1) market driven and (2) inexorably better than the previous older technology. It has never been mandated before. And of course once you get to a cost issue, the large Chinese elephant in the room rears its head. It may be that all we are doing with EV's is handing even more power to the Chinese. Is that sensible? www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-reignite-electric-car-demand-affordable-ev-platform
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Feb 8, 2024 14:56:34 GMT
At least someone senior in the automotive industry has finally said it though.
Mrs Tim recently asked me what EV I thought we would be buying in 2 or 3 years time. I said I had no idea because they just don't interest me combined with them appearing to be so much more expensive than the equivalent petrols.
We'd be fine with something like a Zoe (or equivalent) for white goods use day to day around the local area and commuting but aside from that nothing stirs any interest.
|
|
|
Post by PetrolEd on Feb 8, 2024 15:07:14 GMT
It does seem rather obvious doesn't it. Why are electric cars so much more then the ICE counterparts. You'd think an ICe car would be far more complex to produce or is it just the cost of batteries?
The only electric car that floats my boat slightly is the EV6GT. Used ones are 40K for all that power and space. More realistically a Honda E would make a great tender to something far more interesting with a proper engine. But they are still the same money as a Fiesta ST which again is more appealing.
|
|
|
Post by PG on Feb 8, 2024 15:12:23 GMT
I think the Toyota CEO (or was it Chairman - he's one of the family) has been saying how EV's may not be the answer to every question for a while, but much press comment was that was just because Toyota were behind everyone else as they had focused on hybrids instead (which strikes me as a better option for most people).
EV's can make sense for clean air in cities. Although the extra pollution from tyres and brakes due to their increased weight has been put out there, of course by the groups who want us all out of all private transport and back onto trains and buses only. After all, got to keep the masses in their place in the forthcoming one-world socialist utopia.
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Feb 8, 2024 16:37:04 GMT
We went EV shopping at the weekend on the basis that the i-Pace is going back at the beginning of August. The Mercedes salesman told us that they are only selling A Class and CLA at the moment. The huge hike in E Class prices has scared away all their customers and the C Class is dead in the water with engines that no-one wants. They are selling a few SUV's but the EQE and EQS we were in to see are not selling. We could have any colour or spec within a few weeks which must be a scary prospect for the manufacturers and dealers. However quality is also an issue. On opening the door on most of the cars in the showroom there is a piece of silver plastic on the end of the armrest which houses the window and mirror switches. At first glance I thought it was metal, until I got closer. It is like a cheap Binatone radio from the 1970/80's with that criss cross hard silver plastic with a very fake metallic look. Truly awful. Had it been leather or soft touch black it would have elevated the interior massively. The EQE and EQS have massive depreciation of c£25/£30K in the first year. The SL convertible in the showroom was a beautiful thing and felt like a quality item. However at £145,000 I really don't see that moving quickly.
We also visited BMW but the only car that didn't offend the eyes too much was the i4 but we have seen and tried that before and it really doesn't exude quality like the i-Pace does.
Audi were the other make we looked at. I thought the Q4 e-tron coupe might be of interest but again the interior couldn't compare to the Jaguar and the huge slab of plastic for a grill just didn't look right on the darker colours, especially when it appears you can only get sparkly silver unless you go for a black pack which also gives you black wheels. The e-tron GT was in the showroom in RS spec and it is a very attractive car but it is huge on the outside (really wide and long) but surprisingly small on the inside, very much like the Taycan it shares its platform with. They had a couple of lightly used ones significantly depreciated and I asked about business contract hire but the person that deals with that isn't in today sir!
We are going to continue to look and will pay the Genesis and Polestar dealers a visit and I am keeping my fingers crossed that the manufacturers will need to do some discounting to get people in to the cars piling up in their storage facilities. However it is quite possible that the horrendous used prices might make leasing more expensive in which case we will probably look at buying something privately like a used F Type. I did have a thought though that the local Jaguar dealer has several of the older I-Pace in stock which are clearly still new. If one of them has the 360 camera etc in HSE spec we might just go i-Pace again if we can get a reasonable lease deal.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Feb 8, 2024 17:24:04 GMT
I meant to post this in a thread a while back but when we were in Europe over Christmas I was very conscious that I just wasn't seeing anything like the number of EVs as I see in the UK.
However, it was a novelty to see a couple of them (one was the big Merc electric saloon) being driven in an appropriate manner down the autobahn
|
|
|
Post by PG on Feb 8, 2024 22:49:53 GMT
....However quality is also an issue. ..... ... However it is quite possible that the horrendous used prices might make leasing more expensive in which case we will probably look at buying something privately like a used F Type. I did have a thought though that the local Jaguar dealer has several of the older I-Pace in stock which are clearly still new. If one of them has the 360 camera etc in HSE spec we might just go i-Pace again if we can get a reasonable lease deal. So expensive and bad quality too. As a customer that is just such a desirable combination. You can always get another electric car. We may all well have to. But the F-Type is a scatchable itch that won't be there for much longer.
|
|
|
Post by PetrolEd on Feb 9, 2024 9:06:42 GMT
We went EV shopping at the weekend on the basis that the i-Pace is going back at the beginning of August. The Mercedes salesman told us that they are only selling A Class and CLA at the moment. The huge hike in E Class prices has scared away all their customers and the C Class is dead in the water with engines that no-one wants. They are selling a few SUV's but the EQE and EQS we were in to see are not selling. We could have any colour or spec within a few weeks which must be a scary prospect for the manufacturers and dealers. However quality is also an issue. On opening the door on most of the cars in the showroom there is a piece of silver plastic on the end of the armrest which houses the window and mirror switches. At first glance I thought it was metal, until I got closer. It is like a cheap Binatone radio from the 1970/80's with that criss cross hard silver plastic with a very fake metallic look. Truly awful. Had it been leather or soft touch black it would have elevated the interior massively. The EQE and EQS have massive depreciation of c£25/£30K in the first year. The SL convertible in the showroom was a beautiful thing and felt like a quality item. However at £145,000 I really don't see that moving quickly. Interesting you mention Merc and has answered my suspicions that they can't be selling much. There range is either vastly overpriced or just looks long in the tooth. Yes the new SL and GT are rather nice but not many are in the market for a 150K motor and what they've done with the C63, less said the better. It can't be a suprise to the board or do they think the brand will see them through these turbulent times?
|
|
|
Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Feb 9, 2024 9:33:40 GMT
We went EV shopping at the weekend on the basis that the i-Pace is going back at the beginning of August. The Mercedes salesman told us that they are only selling A Class and CLA at the moment. The huge hike in E Class prices has scared away all their customers and the C Class is dead in the water with engines that no-one wants. They are selling a few SUV's but the EQE and EQS we were in to see are not selling. We could have any colour or spec within a few weeks which must be a scary prospect for the manufacturers and dealers. However quality is also an issue. On opening the door on most of the cars in the showroom there is a piece of silver plastic on the end of the armrest which houses the window and mirror switches. At first glance I thought it was metal, until I got closer. It is like a cheap Binatone radio from the 1970/80's with that criss cross hard silver plastic with a very fake metallic look. Truly awful. Had it been leather or soft touch black it would have elevated the interior massively. The EQE and EQS have massive depreciation of c£25/£30K in the first year. The SL convertible in the showroom was a beautiful thing and felt like a quality item. However at £145,000 I really don't see that moving quickly. Mercedes interiors have been looking like cheap Chinese electrical goods for a while now. Mercedes always used to have interiors that seemed to have a depth of quality and solidity few other brands shared. You sit in a Mercedes now and think to yourself; "this cheap fake trim will be rattling like buggery in a couple of years".
|
|
|
Post by Big Blue on Feb 9, 2024 10:31:31 GMT
I’m in France for a brief maternal visit and Europcar offered me a Tesla as an upgrade. I wasn’t brave enough knowing what charging is like here in our town but probably should have. I got a Kuga hybrid which is showing around 55mpg. The cost of a new electric car runaround is pretty prohibitive for the job you want it to do.
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Feb 9, 2024 12:48:54 GMT
The cost of a new electric car runaround is pretty prohibitive for the job you want it to do. The issue here is the tax relief (tail wagging the dog!). Anything that goes through the business and is electric basically costs me in £'s about half the total cost so getting something more expensive and with all the toys doesn't cost a fortune. I am aiming to retire in 3 to 4 years so won't get many more opportunities to do this. With the new Scottish rates of tax I will probably be getting tax relief at 69.5% on some of it so it's a no brainer. I basically refuse to pay 69.5% in tax which I think is immoral and will find anything legal I can to avoid paying it, even if that means I hand out staff bonuses, pay in to pension or buy/lease a more expensive car. I had another doctor this week going to 4 days a week because she won't work hard and only keep 30% of the money - she would rather go walking and have a better quality of life.
|
|
|
Post by bryan on Feb 9, 2024 14:18:11 GMT
[quote author=" Big Blue" source="/post/103826/thread" timestamp="1707474691". The cost of a new electric car runaround is pretty prohibitive for the job you want it to do. [/quote] Plus it can't easily do other jobs, so a petrol Fiat 500 or Up etc is a great runaround but could be used to do a bigger journey with ease. the electric version would need frequent recharging to do that for more money and inconvenience. I could see an E-Up being perfect for Mrs M but it couldn't do the 150mile round trip to my mother's without finding a charge somewhere in the sticks, and for a premium over the petrol version
|
|
|
Post by Martin on Feb 12, 2024 2:55:09 GMT
Had a text from my 18yr old last night, he’s going to Berlin for a couple of days with his mum. She’s just bought a new Mini Electric (but can’t afford to contribute to driving lessons…) and it was such long journey from Swindon to Stanstead. Traffic wasn’t great, but they had to stop twice….its 130 miles OK, to be fair, one of those was at the services by the airport so they had a full battery for when they arrive back and 99% of her driving will be short journeys, but even so, that’s not great..
|
|
|
Post by johnc on Feb 12, 2024 8:50:24 GMT
My daughter goes to University in St Andrews with a guy from Glasgow who has an electric Mini (not the brand new one but the previous version). It is about 80 miles and he only just makes it one way with between 10% and 20% left, without stopping. Great for a city car if you can charge it at home but not really meant for going any distance.
|
|
|
Post by Big Blue on Feb 12, 2024 9:10:56 GMT
Well with their 15 minute city bollocks, some elements of society don’t want your journey to require private propelled movement of any kind. They don’t care about country life because to them it’s almost an alien landscape. They don’t want you to do a touring holiday with multiple stays because that’s a bit bourgeois. They don’t want you to move about freely without being tracked on public transport.
However what’s more telling is that in France you can now on-line build the new 5er Touring. The full electric ones.
Or the diesel ones……
|
|
|
Post by PG on Feb 12, 2024 13:35:28 GMT
Well with their 15 minute city bollocks, some elements of society don’t want your journey to require private propelled movement of any kind. They don’t care about country life because to them it’s almost an alien landscape. They don’t want you to do a touring holiday with multiple stays because that’s a bit bourgeois. They don’t want you to move about freely without being tracked on public transport.... Yes there certainly seems a whole raft of eco-based activists (including politicians) who would really like to not only un-invent the internal combustion engine, but also the personal ownership of cars. We were all must easier to control when we had to walk to rely on our two legs or public transport. And eventually some city will be daft enough to try and implement the 15 minute city or whatever they call it - probably Oxford or Cambridge. Then? I guess civil insurrection or we all go quietly into that dark night.....
|
|