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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 11, 2023 9:19:29 GMT
Quite astonishing to see the size of the conflagration and the damage caused. Hopefully there has been no loss of life. If I was a betting man, and I'm not.., the cause will be found to be the battery pack of an electric car catching fire. The output from this will be interesting; will some car park operators ban electric cars? Will there have to be designated parking areas for electric cars with additional sprinkler/fire suppression measures? What will be the effect on insurance premiums? I'm sure someone will provide the evidence that electric cars are no more likely to catch fire than ICE ones but when they do go off the inferno seems to bee almost unstoppable.
The electric car movement is not dead but with rising electricity prices, huge increases in insurance premiums, and an expensive purchase price just to get behind the wheel, it's not an attractive option for the private buyer (company users still get good benefits). I've certainly ceased looking at any electric options going forward and I can't see that changing before my next purchase.
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Post by cbeaks1 on Oct 11, 2023 9:46:31 GMT
Diesel Range Rover (maybe Evoque) if you are willing to trust Twitter.
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Post by Tim on Oct 11, 2023 9:54:21 GMT
I don't think it was necessarily an electric car - RR as above - but the issue will be made worse when the fire spreads in something like a car park.
Perhaps there will have to be EV only car parks on a single storey out side so if one does go on fire it can be isolated.
If it IS found to be a diesel RR then why did it spread - the photo I've seen shows the alleged car on fire but no others.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 11, 2023 10:08:13 GMT
Range Rover would have been my second guess.  |
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 11, 2023 10:16:04 GMT
W2.1 and I were discussing this over breakfast but more along the lines of: imagine you're in the airport watching the fire; then being told your flights are all grounded. So you're not going on holiday / visiting family / work and you're not going home either because your car is parked over there. Or what's left of it is.
I wonder if the trapped and burned out cars are racking up additional parking time charges......
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Post by johnc on Oct 11, 2023 10:51:05 GMT
W2.1 and I were discussing this over breakfast but more along the lines of: imagine you're in the airport watching the fire; then being told your flights are all grounded. So you're not going on holiday / visiting family / work and you're not going home either because your car is parked over there. Or what's left of it is. I wonder if the trapped and burned out cars are racking up additional parking time charges...... I'm not sure the ANPR system would recognise the burnt out car leaving on the back of a low loader, so quite possibly yes! |
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Post by Alex on Oct 11, 2023 16:45:26 GMT
Not that astonishing to see how the blaze went up. The inner floors of the car park are confined areas in which the fire can concentrate whilst sucking in massive amounts of air from the open sides. The Liverpool arena car park fire is the same. They reckon this one was at least a 6 million watt fire (in layman's terms that's just fucking massive). The structure of the car park would have been compromised quite quickly hence they just had to let it burn and douse the outsides as best they could. They've already speculated that even cars which have escaped any damage may not be retreavable.
What I don't know is what the insurance situation is. Does the owner of the car who started it have to foot the bill? They're going to be having quite an interesting conversation with the call centre!
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Post by LandieMark on Oct 11, 2023 17:56:56 GMT
^^^ No, they would have to prove negligence on his part. It's a case of shit happens and down to individual insurers to pay.
I would imagine that insurers will be asking for proof of parking, such as the entry ticket and these will be getting checked.
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Post by woofwoof on Oct 11, 2023 21:08:33 GMT
Diesel Range Rover (maybe Evoque) if you are willing to trust Twitter. Mine hasn't gone up in flames yet but I'm sure I read some time back that cars with hot exhaust systems were catching fire when parked over leaves or rubbish? Maybe something under a car could have been a factor here? Must admit my first thought was electric too but even if it was I think there's a hard core of people who'll never even accept anything negative about electric. |
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Post by johnc on Oct 12, 2023 6:25:32 GMT
It was on the news this morning that it was a diesel car that started the fire. No doubt there will be some CCTV footage that will show the fire starting.
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Post by Tim on Oct 12, 2023 7:16:21 GMT
^^^ No, they would have to prove negligence on his part. It's a case of shit happens and down to individual insurers to pay. I would imagine that insurers will be asking for proof of parking, such as the entry ticket and these will be getting checked. I can imagine that call - "Sure, just wait while I go and retrieve it out of my burnt out car". It'll be fine if they used one of the apps though |
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Post by johnc on Oct 12, 2023 7:25:51 GMT
From the sound of it, some of the cars in the carpark won't be able to be recovered for months!
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Post by PG on Oct 12, 2023 13:01:59 GMT
There was video of the fire taking hold in the internet press this morning. Looks like a Disco Sport or Evoque? Google tells me that whilst diesel is much harder to ignite than petrol in liquid form, the ultra high pressure in common rail diesels means that a fine diesel spray can be more easily ignited then a bucket of diesel for example. The internet is also awash with arguments about whether EV's catch fire more often than ICE. It all seems to be based on what data you use and how you interpret it. 'Twas ever thus! |
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Post by Martin on Oct 12, 2023 15:05:51 GMT
Yes, that's a Disco Sport.
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Post by johnc on Oct 12, 2023 16:10:20 GMT
Do they make Disco Sport Hybrids with a diesel engine? For a diesel engined car I think by far the greatest likelihood is an electrical fault.
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Post by ChrisM on Oct 12, 2023 19:30:40 GMT
I|t's more likely it was tyres exploding when people say that cars were exploding, or fuel tanks were exploding
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Post by Alex on Oct 12, 2023 21:05:55 GMT
From the sound of it, some of the cars in the carpark won't be able to be recovered for months! Trouble you have is that even if the cars in question are drivable, the car park is not structurally sound so going in to get them isn't safe. It will have to wait until they've shored up the building to allow access inside. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2023 9:24:11 GMT
Crane job more likely. Get the =weight off the building then shore it up.
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Post by Alex on Oct 13, 2023 12:02:27 GMT
Crane job more likely. Get the =weight off the building then shore it up. They'll probably only do that for the purposes of disposing the cars for scrap when each owners insurers refuse to chip in for the recovery and just write them off. |
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Post by PG on Oct 13, 2023 12:40:36 GMT
More on the diesel / petrol / EV started it thing. It has been suggested that as the fire started at the front left side and was so firece so quickly that there are two possible cuases. If this was a diesel MHEV (as all newer diesels are these days) on Range Rover Sports and other LR products this is where the hybrid battery is sited. So it might have been a battery fire that started it. Or it could have been a DPF regen gone horribly wrong.
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Post by bryan on Oct 13, 2023 17:25:32 GMT
They also have phev disco sports so could be a battery fire?
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Post by Blarno on Oct 13, 2023 18:41:13 GMT
Try setting diesel on fire - nothing happens. Plus, to get the ultra high pressure required to atomise the fuel, the engine would have to be running at the time.
I too am not a gambling man, but I am willing to hedge a considerable "bet" that the fire is a result of electrical malfunction or battery fault from a high voltage system (hybrid, etc)
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 14, 2023 8:13:04 GMT
Back in 2004 we had a diesel Transit catch fire while parked up in the workshop overnight. Gutted the place. Some stored charge in a capacitor was found to be the cause if I remember correctly.
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Post by alf on Oct 16, 2023 15:13:37 GMT
Here is another theory for the mix. Recall in 2014 I bought a new C Max for the ex Mrs ALF (which she just swapped out for some aneamically engined Pug SUV)? That had what I can only describe as a critical fault in how it was set up. It had start stop, and keyless start, and if you parked up, and the engine stopped because of the start stop, you could get out, lock the car, walk away... But the car was still on unless you had switched it off with the ignition button! As a manual there was less reminder to do anything. When the start stop decided it wanted the engine on to heat/cool the car, the engine came on, and it kept going on/off until you came back to it.
She said a few times she had come back to the car to find the engine running but the car locked, it was only when I was with her one time I pointed out she had not switched the igniton off. But this must be a common issue, the car needs safeguards to prevent this. On the Jag, if the engine was stopped due to start/stop, it switched the ignition off if you released the seatbelt (which could be annoying at car park or toll machines!). Ford had no such safeguards.
Imagine arriving at an airport in a flap, desperate to get away to catch a plane. You stop, the engine stops, you get out with your bag, lock it and walk away... Easily done! What happens in a Disco if you do this? Obvs it should not catch fire, but an ICE car sat there for hours/days idling is more likely to catch fire than one not being run...
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Post by ChrisM on Oct 16, 2023 18:53:33 GMT
^
How did the C-Max get cerified under Construction and Use regulations etc? My C-Max (2015) had s/s and keyless start but I never tried the above. The Kuga is very similar being built on the older Focus platform and is keyless and has s/s but I knoiw from experience during lockldown that the engine will not run for more than about 25 minutes at idle before a computer automatically stops it, and it won't automatically re-start; also you cannot remotely lock the car if the ignition is on
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Post by Ben on Oct 16, 2023 18:55:21 GMT
Here is another theory for the mix. Recall in 2014 I bought a new C Max for the ex Mrs ALF (which she just swapped out for some aneamically engined Pug SUV)? That had what I can only describe as a critical fault in how it was set up. It had start stop, and keyless start, and if you parked up, and the engine stopped because of the start stop, you could get out, lock the car, walk away... But the car was still on unless you had switched it off with the ignition button! As a manual there was less reminder to do anything. When the start stop decided it wanted the engine on to heat/cool the car, the engine came on, and it kept going on/off until you came back to it. She said a few times she had come back to the car to find the engine running but the car locked, it was only when I was with her one time I pointed out she had not switched the igniton off. But this must be a common issue, the car needs safeguards to prevent this. On the Jag, if the engine was stopped due to start/stop, it switched the ignition off if you released the seatbelt (which could be annoying at car park or toll machines!). Ford had no such safeguards. Imagine arriving at an airport in a flap, desperate to get away to catch a plane. You stop, the engine stops, you get out with your bag, lock it and walk away... Easily done! What happens in a Disco if you do this? Obvs it should not catch fire, but an ICE car sat there for hours/days idling is more likely to catch fire than one not being run... I think many cars these days do have safeguards in place. Once the car is locked and the key is a certain distance away from the car, it should automatically shut itself down. |
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Post by alf on Oct 17, 2023 11:56:45 GMT
They should have safeguards certainly. But how many bugless modern complex computing devices are you aware of?  Similar things are an issue with Chinese EV's... one of which came through the lounge wall of a friend of mine recently (an MG, I think). The woman driving it claimed to have switched off the ignition, certainly she had her seatbelt off (which should shut it down) but accidentally stood on the accelerator when getting out, it shot off right into his sitting room! Again this should not be possible. She was totally out of the car when it shot off. If people buy a lot of Chinese EV's expect more of this - as well as spying for the chinese state (which is the rather obvious inference of them banning Teslas in many areas in China now because of the cameras) they are not exactly up to Western quality. And ours is far from perfect. At times like this, I'm reminded of the recall formula: |
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Similar things are an issue with Chinese EV's... one of which came through the lounge wall of a friend of mine recently (an MG, I think). The woman driving it claimed to have switched off the ignition, certainly she had her seatbelt off (which should shut it down) but accidentally stood on the accelerator when getting out, it shot off right into his sitting room! Again this should not be possible. She was totally out of the car when it shot off. If people buy a lot of Chinese EV's expect more of this - as well as spying for the chinese state (which is the rather obvious inference of them banning Teslas in many areas in China now because of the cameras) they are not exactly up to Western quality. And ours is far from perfect.