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Post by Alex on Jul 27, 2017 8:45:06 GMT
Except you don't because he still needs to travel 20000 miles but half has to now be done by another means which may not necessarily be emission free. In your neck of the wood, for example, I imagine the railways are not electrified so the trains run on diesel (correct me if I'm wrong) as do the buses. But even if you do have trams or electric railways the power is still likely to be generated with a fossil fuel. If you limit him to 10000 miles with no other travel options he does less work, earns less money and extrapolated across the population we will all be poorer. Another point about this debate I thought of earlier was what about trucks? We can't take them all off the road unless we massively increase rail capacity. We'd probably need to build another cross country network twice the size of HS2 just to cope. Even then we'd still need to do something the other end to get products where they need to be. Battery powered transit vans are feasible but you'd need a fucking army of them to make up for the all the 40+ ton artics. Can the equivalent truck be replaced with a battery one? It doesn't appear so at present. So that's another hurdle the EV manufacturers are going to have to overcome if this is to work. What makes you think you can't have battery powered trucks? There are already a number of companies working on electric trucks that can pull 40 tonnes 400 miles on a single charge. You'll see diesel trucks that do urban deliveries replaced first, then the motorway hauliers. I just hadn't seen any being developed but if I'm wrong I'll hold my hands up. They will require a lot of power though so it does widen the issue of where all the electricity will come from. |
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Post by Tim on Jul 27, 2017 8:50:41 GMT
Solar panels on the roof of the trailers?
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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 27, 2017 9:44:40 GMT
Is it not the governments ideal that we all become far more active at producing our own energy at home. Not from strapping your arse to a conductor after a hot curry but investing in Solar panels, turbines etc therefore having less of a stain.
I'm in the process of doing a large extension at home, adding circa 800sq ft and taking the roof off and really should look at ways to become more self sufficient. Any ideas on what I should be looking at?
Back to the subject in hand, I'm not panicking about the loss of Petrol cars on sale as cars are becoming increasingly more governed. I think I'll buy a 911 GT3 in 10 years time and keep it forewver. Partner that with some autonomous box I'm well set up for the electrical revolution.
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Post by michael on Jul 27, 2017 9:49:07 GMT
I'm in the process of doing a large extension at home, adding circa 800sq ft and taking the roof off and really should look at ways to become more self sufficient. Any ideas on what I should be looking at? Tesla solar tiles but they're not on sale quite yet. Insulate the hell out of it, obviously then insulate a little more. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 10:00:14 GMT
Not sure if it is an answer in and of itself but I suggested a competition topic back when I was running beta testing. The basic idea was that investment by one home would be for one type of renewable source, which is limiting due to climatic conditions. What I suggested was a group of homes where solar/wind/ground pump would supply a communal storage unit. What about adding a fuel cell stack? Quite apart from bringing production down to the local level it would cut most of the transmission loss associated with a national grid and cut the extortion by the big companies.
I see this being useful with plug in hybrids etc.
As for me, well possibly not being around/driving by then it will not bother me but hopefully whoever has Bess can use lpg or an alternative like that.
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Post by LandieMark on Jul 27, 2017 10:30:41 GMT
Ground source heat pump and a wind turbine would be ideal for me, but the cost of installation would be huge. Probably wouldn't be allowed the wind turbine either due to AONB and conservation area.
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Post by michael on Jul 27, 2017 11:05:01 GMT
We looked into ground source heat pumps and our land isn't suitable. Coupled to that we'd need to do major upgrades to the structure of the building to make it appropriately thermally efficient. The cost versus return are simply not there.
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Post by PG on Jul 27, 2017 11:59:19 GMT
We looked into ground source heat pumps and our land isn't suitable. Coupled to that we'd need to do major upgrades to the structure of the building to make it appropriately thermally efficient. The cost versus return are simply not there. Ground source only works if you can put it in a new build and use underfloor heating. Retro fitting to an existing house is really hard as you need 3x the radiator area as the water is cooler - or you hav eto dig up all the floors. In Ed's position I'd probably go for massive insulation in the new area (floor and walls) and some solar on the roof. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 12:40:04 GMT
These are reasons why I mooted the position of a community approach to renewables where cost/benefit can be shared. Multiple sources being more efficient/reliable than just the one.
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Post by Alex on Jul 27, 2017 12:44:20 GMT
I'm in the process of doing a large extension at home, adding circa 800sq ft and taking the roof off and really should look at ways to become more self sufficient. Any ideas on what I should be looking at? Tesla solar tiles but they're not on sale quite yet. Insulate the hell out of it, obviously then insulate a little more. I've got solar panels and the my electricity bill is ridiculously low, something like £20/month. Battery storage would cost between 2&3 grand right now so it's not yet viable but I suspect that will drop dramatically in the coming years. The trouble at the moment is that the government have slashed the feed in tariff right down so the payback from selling back to the grid takes a lot longer than it used to which has had a massive impact on the solar panel industry. But if you use a lot of power during the day such as through working at home then the savings on your bills could give you some payback. |
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Post by michael on Jul 27, 2017 12:52:02 GMT
I'm quite keen on getting panels because we do both work at home and with cheap electricity could run more of the household services off it, such as the immersion heater.
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Post by Tim on Jul 27, 2017 12:54:53 GMT
What happens if you have plenty of solar and/or wind power generated electricity but you're not on the grid?
Is there a fuse somewhere that would blow, would your house become electrified or is there a trip in the system somewhere that stops your devices from generating?
I'm interested because I still feel inclined to do the whole Grand Designs thing on a plot, albeit without the 7 figure budget and £1/2M overspend!
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Post by michael on Jul 27, 2017 12:58:34 GMT
I assume there is a cut out of some sort but the idea now is to divert to storage. I heard talk that car batteries could be reused to create these home power packs so presumable the costs will slide. Even now a Tesla power wall is only a few thousand pounds.
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Post by alf on Jul 27, 2017 13:20:06 GMT
The cost versus return are simply not there. And there is the rub. Cost vs return is rarely there for so-called environmentally friendly products for moderate domestic use. Even things like going to LED bulbs is unlikely to make savings if you actually know how to switch them off when not in the room - I have changed ours because I'm sick of having to moan about it, but I doubt it saved me money or helped the environment one bit. I'm sure I'm not alone in that I could go all "man maths" on a Tesla and a powerwall and a garage roofed in solar panelled tiles - but that's spunking, what 100k? Even doing 20k miles in a 5 litre petrol car and paying 550 in tax each year only costs me 5 grand in fuel and tax - even if I drive like a twat. So that's 20 years to get that 100k back. Assuming zero cost to charge the Tesla - and it won't be zero cost. Charging an electric car is like 3 kettles running non-stop all night... |
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Post by johnc on Jul 27, 2017 16:12:02 GMT
The girl who works for me who has the Mitsubishi PHEV reckons it costs them about £15/mth to charge the car and that's only twice a week because it also gets charged for free at her husband's work.
My Tesla driving client paid £80K and less than 18mths later he was offered £55K when casually enquiring about the new 100 version. Despite being green it is far from depreciation proof - a well specced Porsche might even make money over the same period! |
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Post by michael on Jul 27, 2017 16:31:13 GMT
The girl who works for me who has the Mitsubishi PHEV reckons it costs them about £15/mth to charge the car and that's only twice a week because it also gets charged for free at her husband's work. How much does she spend on fuel in the same period? The latter part of your quote sums things up, though. Green only works when someone else is paying. |
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Post by PG on Jul 27, 2017 17:03:25 GMT
My Tesla driving client paid £80K and less than 18mths later he was offered £55K when casually enquiring about the new 100 version. Despite being green it is far from depreciation proof - a well specced Porsche might even make money over the same period! So far, EC cars are suffering higher depreciation. Mainly as technology is moving fast, they are becoming technically obsolete far quicker than an ICE car. Nobody really knows how long they will last and people are scared of long term costs - like needing new batteries. I reckon that there is a serious man maths case to be made for running a second hand Leaf as a run about and commuter car (if your return trip is under 50-60 miles / you can't charge at work) and a large engined ICE fun car for other times. |
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Post by Martin on Jul 27, 2017 17:04:54 GMT
My next door neighbour has a Leaf and a V8 Mustang.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 20:19:10 GMT
I understand that I should not be thinking this way but, all the heavy metals in batteries and electric motors makes me nervous. There are some parts of the world still heavily contaminated from the 18th and 19th centuries. What are we going to do when the real cost becomes payable?
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Post by ChrisM on Jul 28, 2017 12:17:06 GMT
^
We'll all be dead by then, someone else's problem [/politician mode off]
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 28, 2017 12:27:58 GMT
I understand that I should not be thinking this way but, all the heavy metals in batteries and electric motors makes me nervous. There are some parts of the world still heavily contaminated from the 18th and 19th centuries. What are we going to do when the real cost becomes payable? But this is the 21st century, not the 19th century? We don't extract oil for our cars today the same way we did at the beginning of the 20th century. Companies these days pay far more attention to where their raw materials come from, how it's produced, and the human cost of its production - not least because we demand it. |
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Post by johnc on Jul 28, 2017 12:44:38 GMT
The girl who works for me who has the Mitsubishi PHEV reckons it costs them about £15/mth to charge the car and that's only twice a week because it also gets charged for free at her husband's work. How much does she spend on fuel in the same period? The latter part of your quote sums things up, though. Green only works when someone else is paying. They spend virtually nil on fuel on a Monday to Friday basis but if they head for the hills at the weekend, it just becomes a 30mpg at best petrol vehicle. |
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Post by ChrisM on Jul 29, 2017 17:54:57 GMT
All may not be lost. Just seen an article that says petrol or diesel hybrids will be allowed. The proposed ban is on petrol only and diesel only vehicles
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 11:13:40 GMT
I understand that I should not be thinking this way but, all the heavy metals in batteries and electric motors makes me nervous. There are some parts of the world still heavily contaminated from the 18th and 19th centuries. What are we going to do when the real cost becomes payable? But this is the 21st century, not the 19th century? We don't extract oil for our cars today the same way we did at the beginning of the 20th century. Companies these days pay far more attention to where their raw materials come from, how it's produced, and the human cost of its production - not least because we demand it. Sorry if I was not very clear, I am talking about the end of life treatment of batteries and motors with exotic materials. There needs to be more joined up thinking on second life and disposal of these items. Moved to household storage where demands are lower perhaps? |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 31, 2017 7:24:57 GMT
But this is the 21st century, not the 19th century? We don't extract oil for our cars today the same way we did at the beginning of the 20th century. Companies these days pay far more attention to where their raw materials come from, how it's produced, and the human cost of its production - not least because we demand it. Sorry if I was not very clear, I am talking about the end of life treatment of batteries and motors with exotic materials. There needs to be more joined up thinking on second life and disposal of these items. Moved to household storage where demands are lower perhaps? Friend of a friend has a Tesla Model X and his wife has a BMW i3 (soon to be replaced by a Tesla Model 3). His home is powered by solar panels and he has a Tesla Powerwall to store the generated electricity. However, he wanted more capacity and spotted a Nissan Leaf write off which he bought and has used the battery pack from this to supplement his Powerwall. The re-use of Nissan battery packs for home storage is something Nissan themselves are working on www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/04/nissan-launches-british-made-home-battery-to-rival-teslas-powerwallElectronic components, computers, phones etc are recycled and the precious metals contained within recovered. I have no doubt that the valuable materials in batteries will similarly be recycled. There was a time when we thought nuclear waste was fit only for storage in deep caverns underground - now we can strip out the plutonium and re-use it as feedstock for the new generation of nuclear reactors. |
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 31, 2017 10:33:25 GMT
My next door neighbour has a Leaf and a V8 Mustang. This is exactly as it should be. A car for mundane commutes and milling about and a car for insane tarmac ripping used infrequently to burn carbons. Just like having a motor carriage for regular journeys and a horse for the weekend. |
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Post by grampa on Jul 31, 2017 10:47:02 GMT
The girl who works for me who has the Mitsubishi PHEV reckons it costs them about £15/mth to charge the car and that's only twice a week because it also gets charged for free at her husband's work. But how long would the £15/month charge last when we're all driving them and the government needs to recover all the money its lost on fuel duty. No matter what, personal transport is always going to be taxed heavily as it's a very desirable thing to have for most people. |
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Post by Tim on Jul 31, 2017 12:26:47 GMT
The girl who works for me who has the Mitsubishi PHEV reckons it costs them about £15/mth to charge the car and that's only twice a week because it also gets charged for free at her husband's work. But how long would the £15/month charge last when we're all driving them and the government needs to recover all the money its lost on fuel duty. No matter what, personal transport is always going to be taxed heavily as it's a very desirable thing to have for most people.
They'll simply introduce a road tax that'll earn cost each owner however many £000s they will lose out.
Either that or they'll conjure up some hideously expensive PFI funded road toll plan to cover every single road in the country.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 31, 2017 13:03:17 GMT
My next door neighbour has a Leaf and a V8 Mustang. This is exactly as it should be. A car for mundane commutes and milling about and a car for insane tarmac ripping used infrequently to burn carbons. Just like having a motor carriage for regular journeys and a horse for the weekend. Indeed, or to put it another way; a wife for everyday country life and and a young mistress in the city for weekends. |
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Post by PG on Jul 31, 2017 13:22:05 GMT
But how long would the £15/month charge last when we're all driving them and the government needs to recover all the money its lost on fuel duty. No matter what, personal transport is always going to be taxed heavily as it's a very desirable thing to have for most people.
They'll simply introduce a road tax that'll earn cost each owner however many £000s they will lose out.
Either that or they'll conjure up some hideously expensive PFI funded road toll plan to cover every single road in the country.
I had the misfortune to listen to Jeremy Vine last week when he was on the topic of electric cars. It would have been a very good opportunity to educate people. Instead he had a succession of people coming on raving about their electric cars and saying how much they saved on fuel duty. Not one of them was challenged on how the government will replace all that lost fuel duty in future years and the topic was not mentioned.  |
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