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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 10:07:14 GMT
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Post by johnc on Apr 13, 2023 10:32:02 GMT
That's disgusting and is probably a reflection of the fact that Russia is using foreign mercenaries and convicted criminals to fight its war. Were they not using some groups from Syria to fight in Ukraine? These people don't respect life, the Geneva Convention or the normal rules of war.
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Post by Tim on Apr 13, 2023 10:35:55 GMT
I've read about this elsewhere
It appears to serve a couple of purposes for Russia one of which is to encourage their own troops not to surrender for fear of retribution, i.e. 'you might as well die fighting because if you surrender after we've done this the other side will do at least the same back'
However it'll have the same effect on the Ukrainians and increase their resolve.
Meanwhile Russia are presiding over the UN Security Council.....
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Post by Alex on Apr 13, 2023 15:35:10 GMT
It's just terrorism pure and simple and the sort of bullying tactics that Putins rag tag bunch of rogues are having to resort to as the unprofessional and poorly trained nature of their fighters has shown the world that they are in no way a capable fighting force.
Based on pre war assumptions you'd have bet your house on the Russian army being able to wipe the floor with one of their smaller neighbours but now we know they'd probably struggle to defend their own borders if they themselves were attacked I really don't see Putin lasting.
The worry for Russia going forward must be the simple fact they've lost a significant chunk of an entire generation of young men to a needless war and it could well be many many generations before they recover from that.
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Post by PG on Apr 13, 2023 15:53:39 GMT
......The worry for Russia going forward must be the simple fact they've lost a significant chunk of an entire generation of young men to a needless war and it could well be many many generations before they recover from that. Sadly I think the Russian psyche is that it does not matter, or almost it is a "good thing". From afar, they seem the revel in the fact that 20 million Russians died in the Great Patriotic War - a lot due to the same human wave tactics that are still being employed today in Ukraine. Rather than be horrified that so many had to be lost to beat Hitler. And that another x million in Ukraine is more proof of how Russia is the underdog and everyone wants to destroy us etc etc.
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Post by Tim on Apr 13, 2023 16:04:54 GMT
Another tactic Russia have been using is combat reconnaissance by people, i.e. if they think the Ukrainians are in a certain location then they'll send some foot soldiers to have a look and when/if the Ukraininans shoot at them then the commanders know the Ukrainian positions. It's pretty basic!
Russia had a demographic problem before this war in much the same way as places like China and Japan do - a shortage of younger people coming through to fill jobs as the population ages. I'm sure plenty of the rest of the world have a similar issue but it is noticeably worse in the aforementioned places.
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Post by Alex on Apr 13, 2023 19:01:22 GMT
Well indeed my generation is smaller than my patents and my children's generation will be smaller still given how many of my peers have left trying for children until their late 30s only to find they can't have them. It's a common theme in most modern countries which is why sending several hundred thousand of your young adults to be slaughtered isn't a clever idea!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2023 21:11:56 GMT
Apparently the majority of the conscripts are from poorer parts of eastern Russia rather than the larger more europeanised cities like Moscow etc.
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Post by Tim on Apr 14, 2023 7:34:35 GMT
People from St Petersburg and Moscow are the only ones that are important to Putin and his cronies. The whole of the rest of the population is expendable to them.
We 'entertained' a young Russian for a few hours last year - he came across about this time to work on one of the local farms and had difficulty getting there so we let him sleep on the settee. He was from somewhere central in the country and seemed very pleasant and polite. The job was only over the summer at the end of his 1st year medical degree but he sadly went home to start year 2. I wonder if he has been conscripted as he was definitely from one of the 'don't give a shit about them' areas. We bumped into him a couple of times last summer and he didn't come across as the more normal Russian you meet when they're overseas, i.e. brash, arrogant and unpleasant.
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Post by johnc on Apr 14, 2023 8:00:14 GMT
he didn't come across as the more normal Russian you meet when they're overseas, i.e. brash, arrogant and unpleasant. The Russians you mention above are very likely to be those that got rich after the fall of the USSR and come from the groups who support (and were maybe supported by) Putin. When we go to Marbella we see plenty of them and they are obviously very wealthy, generally rude, obstructive and aggressive - the kind that walk 3 abreast down the pavement and make everyone get out their way.
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Post by alf on Apr 14, 2023 16:52:01 GMT
It is utterly horrific, and medieval. And very worrying that even now - not just 1940's Germany/Russia - you can desensitise most of a population to the extent where local bloggers don't even see what is wrong with this. Videos of castrations and beheadings of captured uniformed fighters, who should have been protected under the Geneva conventions, are shared for laughs.
This, and all the attacks directly on civilians, is what I was worried about when Russia invaded. Anyone who followed Russians fighting in Africa and Syria will know that they match ISIS for brutality, and that's not convicts and conscripts - Wagner was, until decimated in this war, comprised mainly of ex regular elite Russian troops. They (all Russian armed forces not just Wagner) also directly target civilians - endlessly targetting hospitals, and carrying out terrorist style double strikes on civilian buildings - one to destroy them, another to kill and wound as many of the rescuers as possible as they know the buildings will be crawling with them. Then they hit the hospital they know everyone will have gone to. Utterly, utterly inhumane, and obvious war crimes. We have seen exactly the same thing in Ukraine - some of the civilian hits are just innacurate weapons, but some like the Mariupol theatre and all the murders in Bucha are a clear intention to mass-kill civilians.
This is what pees me off so much when Russians whine about how the West is against them, and penalises them in sport, and with sanctions, and so on. We penalise you because you don't even pretend to abide by basic standards of human dignity, let alone international law. It's not acceptable, and we must be resolved to do everything we can to ensure Russia does not succeed in this enterprise. There is too much caving-in going on, with Wimbledon, the Olympics, and so on. Every single avenue to make as many russians - and other people around the world who might be about to do the same (hello, China) - realise that this will never be accepted, needs to be taken.
Were I single, not a parent, and in my 20's/30's when this kicked off, I honestly would have thought long and hard about going to join the Ukranian Foreign Legion - I think it's >50% that I would have done so. Its the clearest fight against evil in a long, long time - a modern european nation just blatantly invading another developed european nation in the style of a land grab from hundreds of years ago, then behaving as disgustingly as possible towards its inhabitants.
I don't want to say anything about "all Russians" here, that's not the fight, the fight is against this regime and innocent conscripted Russians are among the victims - in their tens of thousands, and I feel bad for them. Sadly they have to keep dying in droves until their countrymen oust their regime, because of nuclear weapons, and hypocrisy, we cannot do that for them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2023 17:51:56 GMT
I would have gone but frankly I would have been a liability, something I am still annoyed by.
We humans still have a lot of evolving to do.
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Post by Alex on Apr 14, 2023 23:01:42 GMT
It does disappoint me how hands off we've been generally but it is because of the one successful element of Russias war (sorry, special military operation), the threat of nuclear war if the west put boots on the ground. But I can't help imagining that if they did actually launch a nuclear weapon it would probably turn out to not work because some colonel at some point in the last decade or so nicked some of the microchips and flogged them to some dodgy African militia. It sounds a joke but this is one of the reasons they've struggled to deploy their most modern tanks. A lot of key parts have been lost to pilferage. Apparently, so desperate for parts are they, that they've been harvesting parts from old household appliances. This was uncovered when inspections of some of the shells they've been lobbing across have been found to contain bits of old washing machine.
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Post by racingteatray on Apr 16, 2023 16:49:31 GMT
On the radio in the car yesterday here in Italy, they were casting doubt on whether it was real or, if it was, whether it actually came from the current conflict. There are a lot of Putin apologists here.
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Post by LandieMark on Apr 16, 2023 19:05:52 GMT
A friend of mine is (or was) an aid worker and has been for many years. He went to Ukraine last year, but had to come home as he couldn't handle it. I can't even begin to imagine what they are going through TBH.
It wasn't so much the Russians back then, but the Albanians sex trafficking refugees under the cover of rescue.
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