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Post by Tim on Apr 6, 2023 15:20:45 GMT
I overheard a conversation between some investment team colleagues this morning about electric vehicle sales and the charging infrastructure.
This would be on the back of the possibility that one of the investment portfolios contains an EV charging company or companies.
Anyway, apparently in February 1 public EV charging point was added for every 53 EVs sold.
Surely we should be well into the meat of rolling this infrastructure out by now?
It's just another reason to NOT jump on the EV bandwagon for now.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Apr 6, 2023 16:57:53 GMT
I’m waiting a couple of years, diesel will be back in fashion by then.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 6, 2023 17:06:12 GMT
I’ve got planning permission for a new stables.
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Post by PG on Apr 6, 2023 18:09:18 GMT
....Anyway, apparently in February 1 public EV charging point was added for every 53 EVs sold.... Yes I read that in the press this morning. It is just yet another example of civil service and government inability to have any ability to deliver a plan. You want people (no, in fact you're legally forcing people) to drive EV's, enable and motivate companies to deliver the charging infrastructure. Don't just expect it all to happen as if by magic. |
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Post by alf on Apr 14, 2023 13:15:18 GMT
Very much a "work" topic for me, as Europe's largest Telematics proivider my employer has invested heavily in EV functionality (like remotely reporting battery % and so on) and the transition to EV - as well as Scope 1/2/3 carbon reporting requirements - are massive for the commercial fleets that make up our customers. Probably the biggest shake-up in the fleet world for decades. And they have not begun to grasp it...
I was at a Westminster forum about EV adoption recently, the civil servant in charge of UK decarbonisation was there, as was someone from the national grid. There is a target of 300k public chargers by 2030, currently only 7k per year are being added, to hit target that needs to become 70k a year approaching 2030. The government people (I stress this is civil service not party political) think that's no issue, there will be enough trained installers by then. That seems a bit odd as there are huge pressures for skilled technicians in all sorts of areas (like heat pump installation) that are all seeing massive growth in parallel. Where will they all come from?
Some council areas (such as Oxford, who for tracking their own EV vans are a customer of ours) are seeing >50% new private vehicle registratons being BEV. That's great, but only 2% of UK driven miles is currently electric, so until they invest more in chargepoints for commercial vehicles, and in giving £ assistance to commercial fleets to transition, it will not save the planet.
On which front according to a Volvo BEV truck presentation I was at, it takes 100k km of driving before the carbon used in making the battery is offset by not burning diesel....
I'm not against EV - it makes sense for a lot of people, massive carbon reduction is needed, and the infrastructure is mostly there in terms of the grid (according to the grid people themselves!). There are for example only 15 hydrogen charging stations in the UK, electric is miles ahead of that. But I think the total ban on ICE vehicles was a mistake, specialist vehicles should continue to be allowed to be sold and synthetic fuels are a big weapon against carbon output that we seem to be ignoring. There is going to be a lot of pain in meeting the 2030/2035/2040 targets, and on top of that huge pain for businesses in the CO2 reporting requirements - I fear it will penalise SME's and raise costs everywhere...
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Post by PG on Apr 14, 2023 14:51:07 GMT
.... But I think the total ban on ICE vehicles was a mistake, specialist vehicles should continue to be allowed to be sold and synthetic fuels are a big weapon against carbon output that we seem to be ignoring. There is going to be a lot of pain in meeting the 2030/2035/2040 targets, and on top of that huge pain for businesses in the CO2 reporting requirements - I fear it will penalise SME's and raise costs everywhere... I am sure that the "special cases" are already pleading their case for an extension / exemption to the 2030 / 2035 bans and I bet a lot of them get that exemption at it slowly dawns on the cretins in the civil service that they simply can't work with a BEV only fleet. Like ambulances, police, fire engines, military vehicles etc. And what they are going to do about mobile plant and agricultural vehicles remains a mystery. Like all these things I expect, when push comes to shove, the then government will have to give itself exemptions from the rules that it expects the rest of us to follow. Lions and donkeys....... |
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Post by Tim on Apr 14, 2023 15:58:40 GMT
Haven't the EU just recently voted to allow synthetic fuels post 2035?
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Post by alf on Apr 14, 2023 16:24:25 GMT
Haven't the EU just recently voted to allow synthetic fuels post 2035? Yes, in what was seen as a shock decision within the fleet industry, and in anything involved with decarbonoisation (which is a lot these days since carbon seems to be public enemy number 1). I'm not suprised. The original rules making vehicle OEM's all fit the same score for average CO2 output among their fleet were a total travesty, as was the total ICE ban. "we never make things in the West any more" is such a common refrain, it seems astonishing that European governments could have agreed to completely shafting some of the areas (like supercars/sports cars) where we lead the world. Those cars do tiny mileage so make barely any difference anway, and they stay roadwoorthy for decades. I can't believe people like Porsche took this long to bend their governments ear - it was Germany and Italy that buckled at the last minute. Porsche and Ferrari basically. Synthetic fuel, like hydrogen, is only green if made that way - using copious local green electricity, such as hydro electric. Unlike Hydrogen fuel cells, it generates tailpipe emissions which cause local pollution. But its a hugely valuable tool in reducing emissions given the sheer number of ICE vehicles on the road, and should hopefully enable some motorsport and specialist car makers to continue selling them. Because BEV supercars/sports cars are dull as dishwater. Mass - and shorter range commercial - transportation will still go BEV for the forseeable, which has certain advantages - for example all those batteries become the storage medium that is so lacking presently, when we can make more power than we need on windy days, and far less on calm ones... |
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Post by michael on Apr 17, 2023 6:38:18 GMT
Synthetic fuel, like hydrogen, is only green if made that way - using copious local green electricity, such as hydro electric. And yet little is mentioned of electricity only being green if it’s made from zero emissions like nuclear. 50% of our electricity is from gas so EV cars are gas powered. |
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Post by Tim on Apr 17, 2023 7:44:23 GMT
Synthetic fuel, like hydrogen, is only green if made that way - using copious local green electricity, such as hydro electric. And yet little is mentioned of electricity only being green if it’s made from zero emissions like nuclear. 50% of our electricity is from gas so EV cars are gas powered. On this point there is a fairly large 'low carbon' biomass plant in Glenrothes, built about 10 years ago on part of the site of a former paper mill. The remainder of that site is now being turned into a housing estate for at least 500 houses. I'm sure a decent number of the new occupants will be pleased with themselves by having an electric car while completely failing to see the pointlessness of that (at present) when the evidence is right in front of their face. In fact, I'm fairly certain that a large number of residents will eventually call on the biomass plant to be shut down due to suspicions about toxins and the constant machinery noise and vibration that undoubtedly comes from it. Germany are congratulating themselves about closing their last 3 nukes but I'm fairly sure they've increased coal production in the last 12 months. |
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Post by Tim on Apr 17, 2023 7:49:07 GMT
There's an article in the latest EVO about synthetic fuels - they've driven a Porsche Panamera in Chile, where the plant is, to see what effect it has (nothing discernable) on performance.
The article makes the point that the majority of the VW Group aren't interested in synthetic as they've firmly hung their hat on BEV as the future.
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Post by michael on Apr 17, 2023 8:12:23 GMT
Germany are congratulating themselves about closing their last 3 nukes but I'm fairly sure they've increased coal production in the last 12 months. The nuclear power will be largely replaced by coal. I think the figure is 6% for how much is going to be renewable in terms of replacement. The green agenda is insanity. |
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Post by johnc on Apr 17, 2023 13:24:03 GMT
Public charging is now at the joke stage.
We were through in St Andrews for Easter weekend. Normally we can get charged on one of the 3 chargers in the main car park at the Agnes Blackadder Halls but having visited it on 3 occasions over the weekend, all chargers were taken. We also saw a few other EV's also looking!
The very slow charger at Balgove, where we had breakfast was busy 2 mornings out of 3 and on the one successful visit it only added 3 miles in an hour - I think someone has plugged the other end into a 13a socket!!
Before heading home (we could have made it but it would have been a slower journey with little safety margin for delays) we went to the Old Course Hotel and were lucky that one of their 6 chargers was free (not very free when you consider the cost of a cup of coffee in the Old Course). These chargers normally have several empty but not this time and again in the few minutes it took us to get the cable out, get logged in and then plugged in there were 2 or 3 other EVs who passed by looking for a space.
It won't take long for the word to get about and people just won't buy an EV. The infrastructure growth needs to outpace the sale of EVs significantly and it needs to do it now.
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Post by ChrisM on Apr 17, 2023 20:07:16 GMT
Public charging is now at the joke stage. (snip) It won't take long for the word to get about and people just won't buy an EV. The infrastructure growth needs to outpace the sale of EVs significantly and it needs to do it now. This was flagged a few years ago, yet the government have seemingly done very little or nothing.... a bit like Brexit in some ways, 3 years-plus of warnings that we'd be leaving the EU but nothing was done until it was almost too late and we had to ask for an extension, and again we got almost to the end of the extension period before anything meaningful did get done. Running a country is far too important to be left to politicians |
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Post by johnc on Apr 18, 2023 7:52:03 GMT
The problem is that in all walks of life you get people who always leave things to the last minute and you get others who like to plan and get it done in advance. Unfortunately we are lumbered with the last minute brigade at the moment.
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Post by michael on Apr 18, 2023 8:25:38 GMT
I think the issue with EV charging is that the whole thing doesn’t make sense at scale, if at all. Why would anybody invest in mass charging infrastructure without the means to produce the energy to supply it?
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Post by johnc on Apr 18, 2023 10:45:34 GMT
So are the conspiracy theorists correct that the move to EVs is just a method of ensuring that the population has it means of transport restricted and its movements tracked? The Politicians should have thought about the means to generate electricity before having a blanket ban on the sale on new ICE cars.
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Post by michael on Apr 18, 2023 11:38:32 GMT
The move to EV is driven by the green agenda and the need to be seen to be green even though this generally has the adverse effect - as is the case of EVs. Crediting a UK politician with the foresight to create an environment where people can be tracked electronically when most IT systems are an absolute failure is credit too far. In terms of conspiracy theories I doubt that vehicle tracking is a concern of this government but I wouldn’t be so sure if I lived in China. But, if you’re a conspiracy theorist you might ask who the green agenda most benefits and then reflect on the words of NATO leaders who have said that green activism is funded in part by Russia.
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Post by Big Blue on Apr 18, 2023 16:07:34 GMT
This is various governments' problem: petrol is produced by oil companies and the initial roll-out of user-supply infrastructure made sense to them as producer. Over the years they have stepped back from forecourt ownership and operations and they (forecourts) are either separate business arms or supply-only businesses.
EDF and the like do not own swathes of forecourt space not do they have a business model to do so that wouldn't rip into their overall infrastructure budgets (you know, like multi-billion Euro powerstations) . Shell and the like are electrical energy suppliers but not producers so the business case for rolling out chargers is piss poor. The reckoning was that legislation on cars would drive business modelling for charging infrastructure. It's no longer the 1920s and the finances and appetite for that sort of capital investment are impossible to justify for most (all?) private organisations. Governments are notoriously shit at delivering up-to date infrastructure in a timely manner (ETCS, the driverless train objective, has a delivery plan into the 2070s at which point it will be less technological than a sword stick in a gunfight) so the Germans are doing the right thing.
"Synthetic" fuels. Nothing is synthetic - if it doesn't exist on the planet or can't be grown on the planet it doesn't exist. Paddy Lowe (ex-Merc F1) has a company doing this stuff. Considering what I've said above if companies (like Shell / BP / Exxon) make synthetic fuels by adapting their existing process plants there will be a rationale for them to distribute it. Similarly for Hydrogen. Until we have 75-80% efficient PV cells and similarly efficient regen-in-use electric cars are for tootling around or long distance panic attacks.
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Post by Tim on Apr 18, 2023 16:12:47 GMT
I re-read the EVO article.
The synthetic fuel plant in Chile is owned by Exxon.
They take water and C02 out of the air and by a process turn it into fuel, presumably with various additives and ONLY using renewable energy.
The exhaust output is the same as an existing ICE so the zero carbon part comes from the extraction of the existing C02 that's in the air, i.e. removing pollution to create a similar level of pollution.
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Post by Tim on May 15, 2023 15:04:22 GMT
We met up with some friends briefly on Saturday morning and suggested they come out for lunch with us and some other friends. We had met halfway between Perth and Dundee, lunch was 32 miles away and they had 1 hour and 25 minutes to get there. They had to go via Dundee to collect something from work (but it's literally on their way) and while they stopped they'd get some charge on their Audi Q-Tron thing. Inevitably the charger at their work wasn't working and once they'd done whatever they were doing there they had to go and find another. And that is the reason that they were 30 minutes late for lunch! Aren't EVs and the associated charging structure great  |
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Post by johnc on May 15, 2023 15:23:22 GMT
We met up with some friends briefly on Saturday morning and suggested they come out for lunch with us and some other friends. We had met halfway between Perth and Dundee, lunch was 32 miles away and they had 1 hour and 25 minutes to get there. They had to go via Dundee to collect something from work (but it's literally on their way) and while they stopped they'd get some charge on their Audi Q-Tron thing. Inevitably the charger at their work wasn't working and once they'd done whatever they were doing there they had to go and find another. And that is the reason that they were 30 minutes late for lunch! Aren't EVs and the associated charging structure great I agree it isn't great but it also requires a bit of forethought and planning - they should just have charged it up at home overnight rather than risk the free charge at work - being 30 minutes late for lunch is unacceptable! |
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Post by Tim on May 15, 2023 15:58:40 GMT
I'm not sure forethought and planning is their thing - not a problem with an ICE power source but something that'll catch a lot of people out with EVs. Lunch started without them  |
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Post by ChrisM on May 15, 2023 19:45:29 GMT
We met up with some friends briefly on Saturday morning and suggested they come out for lunch with us and some other friends. We had met halfway between Perth and Dundee, lunch was 32 miles away and they had 1 hour and 25 minutes to get there. They had to go via Dundee to collect something from work (but it's literally on their way) and while they stopped they'd get some charge on their Audi Q-Tron thing. Inevitably the charger at their work wasn't working and once they'd done whatever they were doing there they had to go and find another. And that is the reason that they were 30 minutes late for lunch! Aren't EVs and the associated charging structure great I agree it isn't great but it also requires a bit of forethought and planning - they should just have charged it up at home overnight rather than risk the free charge at work - being 30 minutes late for lunch is unacceptable! Thus destroying one of the huge advantages of the car - the ability to just suddenly go off on a long adventure on a whim with no real planning. If you want a quote about EV's, what I can say is that with the present state of technology, I hope I die before I'm forced to have an EV as my means of private transport |
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Post by Alex on May 15, 2023 20:14:20 GMT
I think you make a very good point Chris. The reason we love our cars is because they do away with forethought when it comes to planning a journey or just going out on a whim. Generally you don't tend to find that you can't get petrol and if one station is busy you can easily get to another. But if you plan to stop for a charge and find the charger doesn't work you're snookered!
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