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Post by johnc on Feb 20, 2023 9:30:14 GMT
We had some time yesterday to look, primarily, at a Volvo XC60 Hybrid which apparently does well over 40 miles on electric only. There is an ever growing "motor city" at Hillington so we called in at the Volvo garage to see what the XC60 was like and hopefully get a test drive.
The first problem was that there was no-one interested in speaking to us. The best I got was a nod of acknowledgement from a salesman who was speaking to another couple. As a consequence we just wandered and the only XC60 we could see was a used one in the showroom. In fact at least half the cars in the showroom were used although it looked as though they had just had a large delivery which which were all parked outside covered in their transport plastic covering.
Having sat in it and generally poked about for 15 minutes, Susan decided that she wasn't excited by it at all and would rather keep the i-Pace than get a Volvo. When we came out I suggested that we go and look at an X5 45e at the just opened brand new Arnold Clark BMW dealership (which has replaced the longstanding Harry Fairbairn name). There was a significant difference when we walked in the door and received a friendly greeting from someone who knew quite a lot about the cars he was selling. We looked at the X5 but Susan felt it was just too large. It is about 50% bigger than the MK1 X5 she had about 15 years ago. We then chatted about cars in general and the salesman suggested we look at the i4 40 which has an official range of over 360 miles and a real world range close to 300 miles - that is about 50% more than the i-pace and might make it a more workable alternative for longer journeys.
We looked around the car in the showroom and chatted about spec and the ugly grill but otherwise it is a very competent car in the way it is packaged and the general fit and finish. After taking some details, a car was brought around to the front of the showroom for us to take on a test drive. Unfortunately the roads in the area don't exactly lend themselves to much more than a motorway drive or some 30mph roads but we got a good idea about how quick it was and how quiet and comfortable it was too. To drive or to be a front passenger it was very comfortable. In the back, the door opening isn't exactly huge so it is a bit more of a squeeze to get in and out and the material quality is OK but not quite as luxurious as the Jag. It also isn't as quick as the Jag but in reality would be more than adequate for every day driving. I think we are talking 4.5s to 60 for the jag and just over 5s for the BMW. These things aren't cheap though and specced with the bits we might want it would have a list price of over £70K. However they have some well specced and nearly new used cars which are in the mid to high £50K bracket. Even with the used car though, the lease cost is still about £100/mth more than the Jag and about £120/mth more than we have been offered for a one year lease extension on the Jag.
The i4 40 is definitely a contender but I still don't think we have found a car that wows us: it is more of a competent replacement.
Whilst at the BMW garage it would have been rude of me not to have a look around the M3 and M4 on show (the M8 GC also looked very impressive but at the price of a small house or a 911 GTS I didn't feel any great want). The M4 was all black and when you walk around it, it is much less offensive than some other colours which highlight the Beaver teeth front grill. It was fitted with the full carbon pack with the carbon sports seats. I haven't sat in these seats before and was interested to see what they were like. In reality, they are very comfortable when you are in them but with the high bolsters, getting in and out wasn't the easiest thing to do. I can see the top of the outside bolster being completely worn away after a few years of use but no doubt these will be an essential extra to have decent resale value. The seating position is excellent and I could easily see myself in one!!!
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Post by bryan on Feb 20, 2023 9:55:46 GMT
Hasn't the new phev x3 or x1 got a decent range?
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Post by Tim on Feb 20, 2023 10:01:49 GMT
Sounds like the right decision is to keep the Jag for the extra year and have another look then.
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Post by johnc on Feb 20, 2023 10:45:31 GMT
Hasn't the new phev x3 or x1 got a decent range? According to the salesman they are both less than 40 miles and they apparently haven't seen any of the X1's yet. The cars that have e30 (or is it 30e?) in their name are all less than 40 miles electric only. EDIT - I have just looked up both the X1 and X3. The X1 can apparently do over 50 miles on electric only, which they state quite clearly. The X3 they keep quiet about the EV range but when you dig down more deeply it is 30 miles.
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Post by racingteatray on Feb 20, 2023 21:24:46 GMT
Silly question, but I assume you tried the i4 40i in Sport?
I found the one I tried unremarkable in normal mode, but very quick in Sport. The Jag must go like a rocket.
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Post by PetrolEd on Feb 21, 2023 10:32:52 GMT
Is it a company car and that the reason you need electric or Hybrid?
I thought a used X3 40i/d would be perfect and the cheaper used prices more then offset the fuel savings with electric/hybrid?
As an even better idea, if it has to be electric/hybrid you should do a Jonny and get down to your nearest OPC and sign up for the new Macan. Isn't that out next year with electric and the waiting list will be huge once its launched. Equals free motoring.
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Post by alf on Feb 21, 2023 11:18:56 GMT
I'm pleased the Jaguar has been good enough to still be considered a contender!
I see Harry Metcalf didn't have a lot of good thigns to say about the i4 M50.... One passed me in Germany, but it gives me zero "want"...
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Post by johnc on Feb 21, 2023 12:44:34 GMT
Silly question, but I assume you tried the i4 40i in Sport? I found the one I tried unremarkable in normal mode, but very quick in Sport. The Jag must go like a rocket. We only tried Sport mode towards the end of the drive when it wasn't really possible to use full throttle but it was definitely sharper. The Jag hasn't ever lost a traffic light GP start. It is brutal if you aren't ready for it and I don't think the M5 would beat it to 40 or 50mph from a standing start.
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Post by johnc on Feb 21, 2023 12:50:25 GMT
Is it a company car and that the reason you need electric or Hybrid? I thought a used X3 40i/d would be perfect and the cheaper used prices more then offset the fuel savings with electric/hybrid? As an even better idea, if it has to be electric/hybrid you should do a Jonny and get down to your nearest OPC and sign up for the new Macan. Isn't that out next year with electric and the waiting list will be huge once its launched. Equals free motoring. It's all about the tax savings which are considerable. I don't think that paying for a Macan would really equate to free motoring especially with Porsche's finance rates.
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Post by johnc on Feb 21, 2023 13:00:16 GMT
I'm pleased the Jaguar has been good enough to still be considered a contender! I see Harry Metcalf didn't have a lot of good thigns to say about the i4 M50.... One passed me in Germany, but it gives me zero "want"... The Jaguar is more than good enough. In fact it is an excellent car. The only concerns about keeping it longer are that it occasionally has electrical glitches, normally sorted by stopping, turning it off and then back on again and public chargers are getting much busier so charging on the road is becoming more problematic with the completely inadequate charging infrastructure. To give us a margin of error we would normally charge up on a motorway trip every couple of hours/140 miles but that is now very difficult to plan. An EV with a range of an additional 100 miles would allow us to go 3 hrs between stops and the more recent cars can charge up more quickly too. The i4 M50 basically uses the same battery as the i4 40 but with bigger motors, so whilst it goes quicker it also uses much more power and is probably similar to the i-Pace in real world range.
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Post by Martin on Feb 21, 2023 20:11:03 GMT
Is it a company car and that the reason you need electric or Hybrid? I thought a used X3 40i/d would be perfect and the cheaper used prices more then offset the fuel savings with electric/hybrid? As an even better idea, if it has to be electric/hybrid you should do a Jonny and get down to your nearest OPC and sign up for the new Macan. Isn't that out next year with electric and the waiting list will be huge once its launched. Equals free motoring. It's all about the tax savings which are considerable. I don't think that paying for a Macan would really equate to free motoring especially with Porsche's finance rates. I would be free motoring if you got one of the first ones and only kept it for a couple of months!
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Post by racingteatray on Feb 21, 2023 20:35:47 GMT
I tested the i4 40 because every review I read said it was nicer to drive than the M50 version, whilst still being amply powerful.
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Post by PG on Feb 22, 2023 12:40:15 GMT
It is a mystery to me why Jag have not continued to develop the i-Pace since launch. I am sure that with battery technology and other improvements, the range could have been improved by now. A RWD long range version must be technically feasible too.
Just confirms my view that Bollore really wanted to kill off Jaguar by neglect.
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Post by Alex on Feb 22, 2023 20:29:42 GMT
It is a mystery to me why Jag have not continued to develop the i-Pace since launch. I am sure that with battery technology and other improvements, the range could have been improved by now. A RWD long range version must be technically feasible too. Just confirms my view that Bollore really wanted to kill off Jaguar by neglect. Indeed if there's a flaw with the i-Pace for a lot of buyers it's probably the coupe crossover body. If theyd extended the range to have an F Pace size SUV I think it would have broadened its appeal once the excitement of the original model had died down. The battery range was probably OK when it came out but its looking well off the Pace (pardon the pun) against some of the modern EVs coming from Germany and particularly Korea. Whilst I'm sure the interior of the i-Pace is nice and the performance impressive I think you'd be mad to choose one over one of the Merc EQ models or even the Kia EV6 which would be a better car to live with. And that's a shame because go back to 2018 and the i-Pace was well ahead of the game but as with Jaguar the brand as a whole, its just stagnated. What's even more surprising is that if the Jaguar brand isn't strong enough why didn't they make a Range Rover version?
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Post by Tim on Feb 23, 2023 8:34:14 GMT
Aren't Jag planning a wave of BEVs in the next 18 months and completely doing away with ICE engines at the same time?
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Post by johnc on Feb 23, 2023 12:44:26 GMT
Aren't Jag planning a wave of BEVs in the next 18 months and completely doing away with ICE engines at the same time? That's what was planned but I think it will be another 3 years before we see anything other than maybe an electric F Pace replacement. Despite the coupe crossover body, the i-Pace provides much more internal and boot space than you might imagine. There is no transmission tunnel and the cabin is very bright and spacious with a good bit of luxury. I have only been in an F Pace once and it didn't feel much bigger inside.
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Post by alf on Feb 24, 2023 10:19:31 GMT
People seem to want "proper" SUV's though don't they - presumably poor dynamics, awful economy, and being four times more likey to roll over in an accident are right up people's shopping lists!
I liked the iPace when it came out, and like it now - it was ahead of the curve then, it's getting a bit behind it now, and its a huge shame it is not getting significant ongoing development. Cancelling the whole iPace platform after one generation just seems like wasteful nonsense.
I always felt Tesla was hugely over valued, and that the major OEM's would quickly catch up (given that much of a vehicle is not its powertrain) - that seems to be happening now, and I guess its a huge investment. The EV6 is the closest thing to a replacement iPace, and while its not as good looking as the ads suggested, its impressive - and its a full range of products with development coming....
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Post by PG on Feb 24, 2023 15:45:47 GMT
..I liked the iPace when it came out, and like it now - it was ahead of the curve then, it's getting a bit behind it now, and its a huge shame it is not getting significant ongoing development. Cancelling the whole iPace platform after one generation just seems like wasteful nonsense. I always felt Tesla was hugely over valued, and that the major OEM's would quickly catch up (given that much of a vehicle is not its powertrain) - that seems to be happening now, and I guess its a huge investment. The EV6 is the closest thing to a replacement iPace, and while its not as good looking as the ads suggested, its impressive - and its a full range of products with development coming.... As big a waste as canning the ready to go XJ EV. See my comment above re Bollore. I think his tenure was very bad for JLR and especially Jaguar. Whilst the Koreans are definitely catching up with Tesla on EV development, I'm not so sure about some of the other OEM's. The review of the new BMW i7 on Autocar today shows a disappointing range and a price of "150k as tested". Wow! I think the Germans are trading on their ICE heritage in EV's. That can't work long term as the technologies are so very different.
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Post by Martin on Feb 24, 2023 15:58:14 GMT
Completely agree with the comments about the iPace. It was well ahead of most of the competition when it was launched but JLR haven't done anything with it, which doesn't make sense. They could have topped and tailed the range with a bigger battery to create a long range version and a 2WD lower cost model. That's before thinking about a more upright SUV with a LR badge, which surely would have been a success.
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Post by Tim on Feb 24, 2023 16:38:15 GMT
Is it simply that JLR just been concentrating on the LR part to the complete detriment of J?
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Post by Martin on Feb 24, 2023 17:49:23 GMT
Is it simply that JLR just been concentrating on the LR part to the complete detriment of J? Definitely, but why not use the iPace platform/tech to create a LR version?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Feb 25, 2023 8:33:58 GMT
Aren't Jag planning a wave of BEVs in the next 18 months and completely doing away with ICE engines at the same time? That's what was planned but I think it will be another 3 years before we see anything other than maybe an electric F Pace replacement. Despite the coupe crossover body, the i-Pace provides much more internal and boot space than you might imagine. There is no transmission tunnel and the cabin is very bright and spacious with a good bit of luxury. I have only been in an F Pace once and it didn't feel much bigger inside. I’ve no idea why they didn’t treat the iPace as an X6 type vehicle and create a more SUV X5 type off the same platform
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Post by racingteatray on Feb 25, 2023 16:08:23 GMT
One the subject or LRs, a friend who has an Evoque with 17k miles on the clock, has just found out it needs a complete new rear diff.
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Post by ChrisM on Feb 25, 2023 22:06:04 GMT
One the subject or LRs, a friend who has an Evoque with 17k miles on the clock, has just found out it needs a complete new rear diff. Under warranty or not? At 17k miles, that's a prime candidate for LR paying in full as a diff should be designed and built to last for more than 17k miles
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Post by racingteatray on Feb 25, 2023 22:17:33 GMT
Under warranty. They are claiming it is caused by insufficient use…
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Feb 26, 2023 14:00:45 GMT
Under warranty. They are claiming it is caused by insufficient use… It’s amazing how Land Rover keep employing these budding comedians.
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Post by Tim on Feb 27, 2023 8:46:12 GMT
Presumably the diff is a bought-in part from someone else well known though?
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Post by johnc on Feb 27, 2023 9:28:21 GMT
We took a trip across to the BMW dealer at the weekend to have another look at an i4 and the figures just don't work - an i4 with a reasonable number of options is more than 50% more expensive than the i-Pace per month, on a business lease. We are just going to extend the i-Pace lease for another year and maybe the market will have sorted itself out by then.
I also asked about an M4 and am now even more convinced that something will have to change in the car market, otherwise there will be a huge cull of dealers. Specced with what I consider to be the necessary extras, the price came to £98K. If I had added the ultimate pack it would have been just over £100K.
On a PCP, the guaranteed future value in 4 years, in round figures is £40K - that is £58K over 4 years, or £14,500 depreciation a year and even at 4.9% apr the monthlies are higher than my mortgage. Who can afford to waste that amount of money on a car, except for the very rich who probably won't buy an M4 in any case. The economic arguments for buying a lightly used 911 over a new M4 are huge if you can do without the boot space and additional seats.
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Post by Big Blue on Feb 27, 2023 9:41:54 GMT
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Post by Martin on Feb 27, 2023 9:57:30 GMT
We took a trip across to the BMW dealer at the weekend to have another look at an i4 and the figures just don't work - an i4 with a reasonable number of options is more than 50% more expensive than the i-Pace per month, on a business lease. We are just going to extend the i-Pace lease for another year and maybe the market will have sorted itself out by then. I also asked about an M4 and am now even more convinced that something will have to change in the car market, otherwise there will be a huge cull of dealers. Specced with what I consider to be the necessary extras, the price came to £98K. If I had added the ultimate pack it would have been just over £100K. On a PCP, the guaranteed future value in 4 years, in round figures is £40K - that is £58K over 4 years, or £14,500 depreciation a year and even at 4.9% apr the monthlies are higher than my mortgage. Who can afford to waste that amount of money on a car, except for the very rich who probably won't buy an M4 in any case. The economic arguments for buying a lightly used 911 over a new M4 are huge if you can do without the boot space and additional seats. £1200 a month depreciation for an M4..….blimey. So many more special (admittedly used) options for that amount and yes, that’s about right for a lightly used 911 even at current values and not far off what you’d expect to lose each month on a new GTS. I know where my money would go!
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