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Post by Tim on May 15, 2023 7:46:05 GMT
The current CAR mag has a big feature about the next 911. Included in it is a small bit about current production levels - Porsche have limited numbers and have been focusing on the Turbos, GTs and limited editions thus limiting supply of the cheaper ones which has pushed used prices of those up. However from later this year they'll be able to increase production by 15k units p.a. which I presume will help supply and reduce the used prices. Hope all those dealers have managed to offload their expensive stock before that all filters through  |
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Post by Big Blue on May 15, 2023 9:29:58 GMT
The current CAR mag has a big feature about the next 911. Included in it is a small bit about current production levels - Porsche have limited numbers and have been focusing on the Turbos, GTs and limited editions thus limiting supply of the cheaper ones which has pushed used prices of those up. However from later this year they'll be able to increase production by 15k units p.a. which I presume will help supply and reduce the used prices. Hope all those dealers have managed to offload their expensive stock before that all filters through No chance. They'll just spin the market with a marketing ploy of "Rare 2022-23 Standard Carrera" and add £10k on. |
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Post by Martin on May 15, 2023 9:32:22 GMT
The current CAR mag has a big feature about the next 911. Included in it is a small bit about current production levels - Porsche have limited numbers and have been focusing on the Turbos, GTs and limited editions thus limiting supply of the cheaper ones which has pushed used prices of those up. However from later this year they'll be able to increase production by 15k units p.a. which I presume will help supply and reduce the used prices. Hope all those dealers have managed to offload their expensive stock before that all filters through No chance. They'll just spin the market with a marketing ploy of "Rare 2022-23 Standard Carrera" and add £10k on. Probably! The £10k+ list price increase for new orders will help protect the value of their inventory. |
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Post by Tim on May 15, 2023 11:46:38 GMT
Given the impending death of ICE powered cars then I expect there'll be an increase in demand which will help keep used values high
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Post by johnc on May 15, 2023 13:57:09 GMT
Given the impending death of ICE powered cars then I expect there'll be an increase in demand which will help keep used values high I think high values might be dependant on the availability of fuel. If 80% of cars are EVs and 70% of petrol stations close, getting fuel could be a 30 or 40 mile round trip at least. For anyone but real enthusiasts, this might be too much hassle. |
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Post by Big Blue on May 16, 2023 7:25:13 GMT
I think there’s a long time to go before 80% of cars on the road are EVs. 35million cars and 5 million other vehicles. At around 1.6million new car sales per annum and ICE cars still on sale it’ll be into the 2050s before that rubicon is crossed. There can never be an outright ban on ICE unless ALL the ICE owners are compensated or incentivised, much the same as there are still horses allowed on the public highway.
Given the mid-life development of mass produced cars, say 1945-1985, and looking at the increased rate of development in 30 years after that then either EVs should be viable as all round usable cars by 2050, due to a technology change of some kind. However ICE cars running on a non-fossil fuel with the production of it being carbon neutral if it’s plant based have a few gigantic advantages.
1. The technology of burning stuff is mankind’s entire history writ large and will continue to advance until we’re all defunct.
2. It’s far easier to collect revenue via liquid fuel sales without the risk of by-passing road charging via elicit technology and the subsequent cost of recovery.
3. When PV cells become mega efficient the opportunity to collect revenue from powering EVs diminishes in such a short period of time that HMRC will not be able to react fast enough to avoid humongous deficits.
4. ICE technology continues unabated as well as EV technology because there are still big markets after 2030. Countries like Mexico, the USA and India are only aiming for 50% new car sales are EVs in 2030. India - the most populace country on the planet. China, the second most populace is only aiming at 40%, although some provinces are considering 100% by then.
Given 4. above its no wonder German manufacturers are waving their arms in the air and calling for an EU rethink on a complete ban. The upshot will be that ICE, EV and hybrid will sit side by side as long as all the members on this forum are capable of driving, be it physically or mentally.
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Post by Tim on May 16, 2023 7:41:46 GMT
All valid but the potential fly in the ointment is that the push to EVs is legislative rather than engineering (?) and looking at the average legislator I don't see many car enthusiasts (or engineers) so they're influenced by the loudest voices, lobby groups and vested interests. I was going to say that on top of that they rarely seem keen to reverse decisions they already made but the last 2 or 3 years have shown that's not the case |
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Post by PetrolEd on May 16, 2023 8:28:07 GMT
Well yes we're thinking far to logically. As soon as 2030 hits I'm sure we'll be priced out of ICE cars in no time. Fuel Duty and RFL will become outrageously expensive for even the weeniest engine.
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Post by franki68 on May 16, 2023 12:53:09 GMT
The current CAR mag has a big feature about the next 911. Included in it is a small bit about current production levels - Porsche have limited numbers and have been focusing on the Turbos, GTs and limited editions thus limiting supply of the cheaper ones which has pushed used prices of those up. However from later this year they'll be able to increase production by 15k units p.a. which I presume will help supply and reduce the used prices. Hope all those dealers have managed to offload their expensive stock before that all filters through No chance. They'll just spin the market with a marketing ploy of "Rare 2022-23 Standard Carrera" and add £10k on. Lots of OPCs are heavily discounting used stock,in fact in many cases it is cheaper to buy from an OPC than some indies which has never been the case. |
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Post by Alex on May 29, 2023 12:45:29 GMT
Lots of the German manufacturers have been restricting production of their cheaper models or those which don't have great profit margins and prioritising the fulfilment of orders on their more profitable models. Its part of the reason my Octavia has been delayed for so long. Situation made worse by it originally being ordered by a lease company back when they were able to get a discount.
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Post by Martin on May 29, 2023 15:02:29 GMT
Lots of the German manufacturers have been restricting production of their cheaper models or those which don't have great profit margins and prioritising the fulfilment of orders on their more profitable models. It’s part of the reason my Octavia has been delayed for so long. Situation made worse by it originally being ordered by a lease company back when they were able to get a discount. Really annoying, but can understand why they would make that choice. My local OPC told me they weren’t suffering that much with order cancellations due to the price and interest rate rises, as it’s “just a bit extra a month”, but that was closely followed by being told they had 3 x October build (spec amendable) slots for Macan GTS…. I thought they were prioritising the 911 T over other versions, but they’re only getting 3 this year (seemed very low), GTS is the quickest, but still looking at 12 months minimum. I guess if you’re really interested in buying new, then more than ever it’s worth ringing around different dealerships. |
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Post by franki68 on May 30, 2023 13:58:09 GMT
Lots of the German manufacturers have been restricting production of their cheaper models or those which don't have great profit margins and prioritising the fulfilment of orders on their more profitable models. It’s part of the reason my Octavia has been delayed for so long. Situation made worse by it originally being ordered by a lease company back when they were able to get a discount. Really annoying, but can understand why they would make that choice. My local OPC told me they weren’t suffering that much with order cancellations due to the price and interest rate rises, as it’s “just a bit extra a month”, but that was closely followed by being told they had 3 x October build (spec amendable) slots for Macan GTS…. I thought they were prioritising the 911 T over other versions, but they’re only getting 3 this year (seemed very low), GTS is the quickest, but still looking at 12 months minimum. I guess if you’re really interested in buying new, then more than ever it’s worth ringing around different dealerships. see my post about the 992 gts test drive regarding deliveries.I can spec now for July production if I wanted ,they are playing games. |
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Post by Martin on May 30, 2023 14:07:53 GMT
Really annoying, but can understand why they would make that choice. My local OPC told me they weren’t suffering that much with order cancellations due to the price and interest rate rises, as it’s “just a bit extra a month”, but that was closely followed by being told they had 3 x October build (spec amendable) slots for Macan GTS…. I thought they were prioritising the 911 T over other versions, but they’re only getting 3 this year (seemed very low), GTS is the quickest, but still looking at 12 months minimum. I guess if you’re really interested in buying new, then more than ever it’s worth ringing around different dealerships. see my post about the 992 gts test drive regarding deliveries.I can spec now for July production if I wanted ,they are playing games. Don’t dealers hold onto their allocations, so if dealer A has a couple of cancelled orders, it only impacts their lead time? I’ve pretty much convinced myself that a 992 isn't the way to go. Lack of use is still the number one concern and having tried my 3 year in a car seat in the rear, it wasn’t great so I think the usage would be even less than I’d hoped. I think it would be much better in a couple of years when he’s in a booster seat. |
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Post by PetrolEd on May 30, 2023 15:19:45 GMT
see my post about the 992 gts test drive regarding deliveries.I can spec now for July production if I wanted ,they are playing games. Don’t dealers hold onto their allocations, so if dealer A has a couple of cancelled orders, it only impacts their lead time? I’ve pretty much convinced myself that a 992 isn't the way to go. Lack of use is still the number one concern and having tried my 3 year in a car seat in the rear, it wasn’t great so I think the usage would be even less than I’d hoped. I think it would be much better in a couple of years when he’s in a booster seat. My son happily sits in the back of my 997 in his full seat and he's five so should be even better in a 992 I would imagine. Any reason you can't use the 992 as a daily? I wouldn't worry about the mileage, your a man that's well practiced in depreciation |
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Post by franki68 on May 30, 2023 16:31:50 GMT
see my post about the 992 gts test drive regarding deliveries.I can spec now for July production if I wanted ,they are playing games. Don’t dealers hold onto their allocations, so if dealer A has a couple of cancelled orders, it only impacts their lead time? I’ve pretty much convinced myself that a 992 isn't the way to go. Lack of use is still the number one concern and having tried my 3 year in a car seat in the rear, it wasn’t great so I think the usage would be even less than I’d hoped. I think it would be much better in a couple of years when he’s in a booster seat. I don’t know the ins and outs but I questioned them on why they had so much stock (seriously they were overflowing ) and he said that porsche had just dumped a load of cars on them to sell . Very possible a lot of cancelled orders due to the interest rate rise and price hike .I paid £100,000 for a turbo in 2007 fully specced ,the equivalent today is just under 200k ,the prices are insane . |
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Post by Martin on May 30, 2023 17:31:33 GMT
Don’t dealers hold onto their allocations, so if dealer A has a couple of cancelled orders, it only impacts their lead time? I’ve pretty much convinced myself that a 992 isn't the way to go. Lack of use is still the number one concern and having tried my 3 year in a car seat in the rear, it wasn’t great so I think the usage would be even less than I’d hoped. I think it would be much better in a couple of years when he’s in a booster seat. My son happily sits in the back of my 997 in his full seat and he's five so should be even better in a 992 I would imagine. Any reason you can't use the 992 as a daily? I wouldn't worry about the mileage, your a man that's well practiced in depreciation My only worry about mileage is not doing enough to justify having the car or ending up really frustrated that I can’t drive it enough. You’re right about depreciation….although the £30k I lost on the 750 over 25 months has been offset a bit by ‘only’ losing £25k over 36 months on the family truck. I’m ignoring the fact that the extra residual value doesn’t help with the cost to change as everything has gone up. I couldn’t (or wouldn't feel comfortable) use it for work, as I’m either visiting my warehouses or customers premises and it’s not the right message / image. I use the Golf about half the time for that reason and can just about get away with the truck the rest of the time as I need a big car for the family. I have enough problems with the Unions as it is, one of them spots a 911 in the carpark and I’d never hear the end of it. That rules out 80% of my mileage, take off the time when I have 4 in the car and I think it would be down to maybe 3-4k miles a year at best plus I’d need to keep the Golf. I haven’t totally ruled it out because I don’t want to and never thoughts I’d be in the position to buy a new 911, but I’m close. |
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Post by PetrolEd on May 30, 2023 18:19:03 GMT
My son happily sits in the back of my 997 in his full seat and he's five so should be even better in a 992 I would imagine. Any reason you can't use the 992 as a daily? I wouldn't worry about the mileage, your a man that's well practiced in depreciation My only worry about mileage is not doing enough to justify having the car or ending up really frustrated that I can’t drive it enough. You’re right about depreciation….although the £30k I lost on the 750 over 25 months has been offset a bit by ‘only’ losing £25k over 36 months on the family truck. I’m ignoring the fact that the extra residual value doesn’t help with the cost to change as everything has gone up. I couldn’t (or wouldn't feel comfortable) use it for work, as I’m either visiting my warehouses or customers premises and it’s not the right message / image. I use the Golf about half the time for that reason and can just about get away with the truck the rest of the time as I need a big car for the family. I have enough problems with the Unions as it is, one of them spots a 911 in the carpark and I’d never hear the end of it. That rules out 80% of my mileage, take off the time when I have 4 in the car and I think it would be down to maybe 3-4k miles a year at best plus I’d need to keep the Golf. I haven’t totally ruled it out because I don’t want to and never thoughts I’d be in the position to buy a new 911, but I’m close. All makes sense. I really fail to see how a 911 is more rich man then a Range Rover. Range Rover is the new guards red 911. The ultimate "done good" chariot for any Boss. I did have to laugh recently going to see a prospect with my boss and we both turned up in Black 911's, I decided I'd better park round the corner. |
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Post by Martin on May 30, 2023 18:32:14 GMT
It isn’t all that different really but I can see how one would be perceived as an expensive toy and the other more of a really nice family car.
Much thinking do be done and a couple more test drives planned to try and help.
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Post by clunes on May 30, 2023 23:40:35 GMT
It isn’t all that different really but I can see how one would be perceived as an expensive toy and the other more of a really nice family car. Much thinking do be done and a couple more test drives planned to try and help. I can totally understand this and how people may well perceive them differently (although both likely perceived to be driven by someone who is living a different life to ‘them’- whether that’s right or wrong!) I remember sitting with one of the mid level managers in my office many many years ago who popped outside to the car park and came back in 5 mins later - he’d taken a picture of his sales teams cars parked up - a line of nearly new / new Porsche so when they moaned about pay etc around bonus time he remind them that they had it pretty good and what it looked like to others etc so I guess the brand has that appearance ( understandably). So, I understand your position. If I was fortunate to be in the position to buy a Porsche I’d want to use it without that / any feeling that may diminish the enjoyment |
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Post by johnc on May 31, 2023 8:22:07 GMT
It's unfortunate but in the whole country there is a growing movement of envy and a Porsche sits pretty near the top of that jealousy tree. We are moving back to the days when success was despised by a certain sector of society (whilst at the same time those very people are wholly dependant on the jobs created and the taxes paid by those they despise).
I think I have said before that I had a client who sold his 911 because of the reaction it got from customers and consequently he didn't have the opportunity to use it. Another client also had customer and staff issues when he got a Taycan so he changed it for an X5 45e.
It's a sad situation.
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Post by PetrolEd on May 31, 2023 8:36:51 GMT
If someone asks I tell them I run the 911 because I'm poor. I then explain how the their leased whatever white good invariably costs £500 a month yet the Porsche costs in real terms £100 a month. Admittedly my 911 is old but people don't see that, they see what they want to see. I did have someone say I was flash who just spent I guess 80K on a new Defender. Nowt so queer as folk.
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Post by Martin on May 31, 2023 9:33:43 GMT
If someone asks I tell them I run the 911 because I'm poor. I then explain how the their leased whatever white good invariably costs £500 a month yet the Porsche costs in real terms £100 a month. Admittedly my 911 is old but people don't see that, they see what they want to see. I did have someone say I was flash who just spent I guess 80K on a new Defender. Nowt so queer as folk. They do indeed. A few months ago I overheard criticism of someone who works for a competitor turning up to a meeting in a Maserati. It was a several year old Ghibli Diesel. It’s more the expensive sports car that I’m wary about running rather than a Porsche, it would be the same if it was a Vantage and even worse if it was a similarly priced Portofino. Or what I’d really like, a current shape Conti GT. |
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Post by Tim on May 31, 2023 13:08:46 GMT
I did have someone say I was flash who just spent I guess 80K on a new Defender. Nowt so queer as folk. I had something similar from friends a while back. Sure, I had 5 cars but it was when M5 values were at their lowest so the realistic value of my 5 cars was probably £10k at most. The friends commenting had just bought (not leased) a brand new Prius at more than double that. |
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Post by franki68 on May 31, 2023 16:47:18 GMT
Never had any issues with a porsche in terms of jealousy .They are so common I don’t think people bother .
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Post by johnc on Jun 1, 2023 9:10:28 GMT
Never had any issues with a porsche in terms of jealousy .They are so common I don’t think people bother . I think the part of the country you live in might make a difference to people's perceptions. My dentist friend who owns a Turbo never takes it to work because he fears staff and client kickback - he has a VW Up which he uses for the daily commute instead. |
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Post by Martin on Jun 1, 2023 9:47:52 GMT
I don’t think Porsche as a brand is off the table.
I’ve got a customer meeting at a new warehouse we’re going to be opening for them. He’s made a few comments / slight digs about my new title when we restructured and my role grew a few months ago….but it’s a 300 mile round trip with an early start / late finish and I’ve been using the Golf all week, so I’m in my car.
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Post by franki68 on Jun 1, 2023 13:20:18 GMT
Never had any issues with a porsche in terms of jealousy .They are so common I don’t think people bother . I think the part of the country you live in might make a difference to people's perceptions. My dentist friend who owns a Turbo never takes it to work because he fears staff and client kickback - he has a VW Up which he uses for the daily commute instead. I lived most of my life in Manchester ,with no such issues .my first warehouse was in a really rough part of town and I had to park on the street and never had any bother . Perceptions are funny ,when I had the r8 which cost me about 90k I would get pulled up at petrol stations and people would say ‘oh lovely how much was that ,bet it was about 50 grand’ . When I got the lambo which actually cost me a lot less than the r8 people would go ‘oh that’s lovely how much was it ? Let me guess £200,000 ‘ |
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Post by Big Blue on Jun 2, 2023 9:54:46 GMT
Petty jealousy is symptomatic of a society where people think you were born better than them. The easiest response is to tell anyone that comments that their petty jealousies have prevented them from actually going out and attaining what they actually wanted. Like most of society I went to state schools and just got on with whatever was thrown in front of me. I fully accept (as advised by many friends and on here a couple of times) that I could have attained much more if I’d made more (some?) effort but that’s not the way I was made. I’ll openly admit I was fortunate with parents and where I grew up but when I see what others have I remain impressed or appreciative as opposed to jealous.
I’m 55 and (physical injuries aside) apart from the issue with my back which is now resolved I’ve been healthy all my life and haven’t yet lost any close friends. Possessions can go fuck themselves in comparison.
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Post by Martin on Jun 3, 2023 7:34:11 GMT
I had a meeting with a consultant yesterday and my initial impression was really positive when he turned up in a black Stelvio Quadrifoglio.
Turned out to be right, really good guy (not always the case with consultants…..) and I’ve given him some work. It might not have been the same outcome if he’d turned up in a Prius….
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Post by Martin on Jun 4, 2023 5:36:38 GMT
Regarding the cost of new cars / PCPs / interest rates, I had a quote yesterday. I wouldn’t finance unless the apr was low (sub 4%) but I was interested in the residual to check my maths and I was curious about the overall cost vs cash. The answer is that with a large (£35k) deposit, the interest was £600 a month…..  . I couldn’t even get man maths to make that seem like a reasonable idea. |
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