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Post by Alex on Jul 14, 2022 20:59:17 GMT
This is an interesting article about the future of optional extras on modern cars. The article is about BMW but I've no doubt others will follow suit. Seems ridiculous to know that your car has all the hardware built in for options such as heated seats but that they only work if you pay a monthly fee. Maybe it'll lead to an aftermarket trade in hacking into used cars to unlock all these hidden extras. www.topgear.com/car-news/bmw-launches-heated-seat-and-steering-wheel-subscription-service-uk |
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Post by ChrisM on Jul 14, 2022 21:01:30 GMT
^
I'm sure it will. But far worse would be at trade-in, the dealer disables them all then charges the next owner for the privilege of re-enabling them
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Post by Martin on Jul 14, 2022 21:38:28 GMT
I’ve got a slightly different view, but it depends on how it all works in reality.
I they drop thing that are standard and make you pay a subscription, then that’s not good, but if it give you an option to add features you didn’t order when you’ve lived with the car for a while then that’s a good thing as at least you have the choice. Even better if you’re buying used and can activate options the original owner didn’t want to pay for.
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Post by Alex on Jul 15, 2022 5:55:46 GMT
I suppose in many ways it's not something that new. I remember my Dad adding cruise control to his Fabia vRS just by changing the indicator stalk and many cars could have front fogs added easily because the wiring was all there, just needed the lights fitted. But it could one day spell the end of being able to pick up a highly specced used car unless you get lucky and the previous owner forgets to cancel his direct debits
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Post by johnc on Jul 15, 2022 7:51:11 GMT
When you consider that they want to charge £15/mth for heated seats and £10/mth for a heated steering wheel it is going to add up pretty quickly. However it is not dissimilar to leasing a car where you can add on metallic paint for £20/mth.
My concern is the same as Martin's. If all BMWs come with nothing on them and you then have to fork out a fortune to get the extras you want activated, i'll be looking elsewhere. There is one thing for sure and that is that these changes are not going to make cars cheaper for customers.
If Kia, Hyundai, Genesis, Lexus etc continue to spec their cars with lots of kit I can see the demand for those adopting the subscription model taking a bit of a tumble. Die hard M fans will probably buy the cars and keep them in basic mode or as has been said, find a way of hacking the car. The problem with hacking is that all BMW's are now connected to the factory on a permanent basis so I presume they will be able to switch the features off again.
However it plays out, I think this is definitely a poor move by BMW and it's maybe the time to consider buying something different. It perhaps also suggests that the manufacturers, or BMW at least, are looking at a subscription model as the future - given the cost of Volvo's subscription model, I certainly won't be going there.
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Post by Tim on Jul 15, 2022 7:56:17 GMT
There's another point not mentioned that if all the stuff is pre-installed then you're hauling it round whether you want to or not.
That'll have a negative effect on economy/range. Maybe not a huge one but it'll be there all the same.
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Post by Martin on Jul 15, 2022 8:09:39 GMT
It’s a good point around the extra £x per month as for a lot of BMW buyers that’s how they buy the cars anyway, so (maybe!) the extra cost plus PCP/Lease payment ends up being broadly the same.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jul 15, 2022 9:50:48 GMT
I see how it works with technology like the upgraded nav, heated seats etc that can be done through the touch screen but you can't get upgraded alloys on a subscription basis so it seems a bit half thought out. Having said that it kind of makes sense. If you buy your cars through PCP you have to spend 10 a month on these options anyway and if its things like heated seats and steering wheels they are redundant for 8 months of the year so why pay for them.
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Post by johnc on Jul 15, 2022 11:07:13 GMT
I don't think you will be able to dip in and out of the options based on the month of the year - I am pretty sure you will need to sign up for a year at a time
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 15, 2022 14:19:54 GMT
They tried this with Apple Car Play and customers in the main told them to “fuck off” so that Car Play was included. I can see the heated seats issue (I was thinking along the same lines as Ed on heated seats and heated wheel) and OK if that’s available month on month (pointless idea if it needs to roll for a year when it’s 30° outside). But then there’s a maths issue: so the option is £10/ month for a heated steering wheel, you have it for 4 months each year for 4 years then £160 doesn’t match the list price for an optional heated steering wheel (which isn’t available on its own anyway). So, the material cost of a heated steering wheel element is maybe £1 and if the factory process is preprogrammed to make steering wheels and add the copper wire and the software to control it is included in the overall car development cost and included in the OS anyway whatever you chose it’s mega-overpriced anyway.
I remember seeing some film guy talking about placing GM cars in movies in the ‘70s and being asked how the car firms felt about the cost of providing the cars. The reply was “these cars are being made no matter what. We’ve got about $100 of steel invested in there and you’re giving us thousands of dollars of publicity.”
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 15, 2022 15:31:57 GMT
I think it’ll be brilliant; you’ll be able to buy your BMW with standard 18” wheels and then do an over the air upgrade to 21” for a monthly subscription charge. Considering what BMW charge for these wheels and tyre packages from new I’ll be quids in.
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Post by Martin on Jul 15, 2022 15:46:47 GMT
I think it’ll be brilliant; you’ll be able to buy your BMW with standard 18” wheels and then do an over the air upgrade to 21” for a monthly subscription charge. Considering what BMW charge for these wheels and tyre packages from new I’ll be quids in. And switch to winter wheels/tyres when the temperature drops. |
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Post by Blarno on Jul 22, 2022 8:36:06 GMT
The beauty of subscription based options is that the car already has them and as soon as Carly or other OBD based gadgets can access them, they'll be free for second hand owners. Like me.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Jul 22, 2022 11:47:50 GMT
The beauty of subscription based options is that the car already has them and as soon as Carly or other OBD based gadgets can access them, they'll be free for second hand owners. Like me. I think the problem will be that the vehicle will be in continuous contact with BMW AG and disable them remotely again (as they would at the end of any subscription period). In the event the vehicle is disabled in some way of being in contact with BMW it will go into a limp mode. They're not daft these Germans. I had a 1 series loaner recently and I pressed the left stalk to enable the auto dipping headlights and a message came up that this feature was available for an additional charge through the My BMW app. |
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Post by Blarno on Jul 22, 2022 12:25:26 GMT
There's always a way around it. Hackers always find a way to outsmart boffins.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 24, 2022 19:17:41 GMT
Nope, not buying it. End of. This is all just money-making BS and I refuse to participate.
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Post by Alex on Jul 25, 2022 4:41:55 GMT
Nope, not buying it. End of. This is all just money-making BS and I refuse to participate. That's the point you don't buy it, you just subscribe. This is what manufacturers will be doing to make profit going forward seeing as they can't really make much money from building the actual cars as the cost of raw materials and energy has vastly outstripped what the public are willing to pay for their wares. |
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Post by clunes on Jul 25, 2022 20:46:14 GMT
My understanding was that you could still buy a lifetime subscription for basically the same cost as specifying the option today so for those that would spec these options upfront it makes no difference but it gives an opportunity to enable features for those that chose not to do so (or couldn’t afford/didn’t want) initially. And of course opens up the options for future owners
Initially I recoiled at the idea but I do see some merit as long as my assumption of being able to upfront ‘purchase’ still remains
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 26, 2022 7:12:01 GMT
So exam question for the accountants, what stops a company car user who is also a small company director ordering a base model and being taxed as an individual on the list price then bashing every available option (which may be several thousand pounds in value as initial options) through the lease payment the limited company pays with no notification of any personal tax difference?
Don’t assume any form of blanket honesty in assessing the scenario.
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Post by Tim on Jul 26, 2022 9:09:22 GMT
I'm sure HMRC will have thought of that and there'll be a mechanism in place (Ha!).
Actually though I think the onus will be on the director to accurately report the cost of the vehicle given that it probably won't be owned but simply leased. Therefore there'll need to be a month by month calculation prepared and maybe there'll be an element of adjustment for notional list price as part of that.
Or alternatively something convoluted and shit that nobody will fully understand including HMRC......
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Post by johnc on Jul 26, 2022 9:49:21 GMT
The BIK is calculated on the original list price of the car plus any extras that are added to the car. I presume that would be the original base list price plus the total cost of the lease payments for all the extras over the period of the lease or HP. If he decides to keep the car longer the BIK would be based on the previous value plus the annual lease cost of the extras ongoing.
Or he might just be dishonest and risk it!!
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 26, 2022 10:18:39 GMT
As I suspected, a minefield. Or lease end-clients are prevented from accessing the options unless they agree to BMW linking to HMRC against the chassis number. Whatever I’m sure it will be hugely convoluted, and not my problem as I’m salaried these days with no company car or allowance.
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Post by racingteatray on Jul 27, 2022 16:01:33 GMT
Nope, not buying it. End of. This is all just money-making BS and I refuse to participate. That's the point you don't buy it, you just subscribe. This is what manufacturers will be doing to make profit going forward seeing as they can't really make much money from building the actual cars as the cost of raw materials and energy has vastly outstripped what the public are willing to pay for their wares. That’s all well and good. In a way we already do it: I have to renew the subscription to BMW’s connected drive services annually. But I would prefer my car to either have a feature or not. I wouldn’t want to have to pay extra periodically to keep certain features that the car just should have. |
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Post by chipbutty on Jul 27, 2022 16:09:35 GMT
How many extras will be physically able to fall into this model ?
Heated wheel, seats and some infotainment fluff ?
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Post by Big Blue on Jul 27, 2022 18:27:27 GMT
How many extras will be physically able to fall into this model ? Heated wheel, seats and some infotainment fluff ? I thought Bob had answered this with the 21” wheel bit 😆 Realistically, if there are haptic buttons on the wheel then radar cruise could be one, I can already subscribe to speed camera alerts and if the mirror glass is pre wired the blind spot warning lights. Basically it’ll all be FG that all of us in here never had and didn’t exist when we started driving and I think that means it’s time I realised I’m no longer a prime target for new car sales. |
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Post by Martin on Jul 27, 2022 18:59:15 GMT
How many extras will be physically able to fall into this model ? Heated wheel, seats and some infotainment fluff ? Exactly and I don’t see it as an issue at all. Anyone who leases a car or has a PCP is paying a monthly charge already and what’s another few £ on top? |
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Post by johnc on Jul 28, 2022 12:41:14 GMT
This has been a bit of a PR nightmare for BMW with lots of complaints.
However they have now clarified what they mean: when a car is ordered it can be specced with anything the purchaser wants and those items will remain in the car, working at no cost for the life of the car. Any subsequent owner (or the original owner) would get all the extras the first owner paid for but will also be able to unlock other items which were not included by the original owner, by subscription.
They should just have said this in the first place!
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Post by Martin on Jul 28, 2022 17:21:44 GMT
This has been a bit of a PR nightmare for BMW with lots of complaints. However they have now clarified what they mean: when a car is ordered it can be specced with anything the purchaser wants and those items will remain in the car, working at no cost for the life of the car. Any subsequent owner (or the original owner) would get all the extras the first owner paid for but will also be able to unlock other items which were not included by the original owner, by subscription. They should just have said this in the first place! That’s how I expected it to work (but they weren’t clear) and why I’ve always thought it was OK and made sense. |
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Post by PG on Aug 2, 2022 9:10:10 GMT
This has been a bit of a PR nightmare for BMW with lots of complaints. However they have now clarified what they mean: when a car is ordered it can be specced with anything the purchaser wants and those items will remain in the car, working at no cost for the life of the car. Any subsequent owner (or the original owner) would get all the extras the first owner paid for but will also be able to unlock other items which were not included by the original owner, by subscription. They should just have said this in the first place! Why oh why do large corporations / the government / anybody in power never pass ideas and the subsequent press releases through any sort of "common sense" challenge session. It's a mystery. |
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