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Post by LandieMark on Sept 7, 2021 21:12:05 GMT
I remember BMIBaby well. Used them frequently.
Newcastle to Exeter direct with LoganAir would be £440 and I would need car hire and that doesn't include parking or taxi to Newcastle.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 7, 2021 21:14:07 GMT
When I was a kid and going to Newquay for our hols we would put the car on the train at Newcastle’s Motorail terminal and spend the night in a sleeper cabin, waking in Exeter.
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Post by LandieMark on Sept 7, 2021 21:41:47 GMT
That used to be common in France as well, I think.
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Post by Alex on Sept 7, 2021 21:45:57 GMT
I remember BMIBaby well. Used them frequently. Newcastle to Exeter direct with LoganAir would be £440 and I would need car hire and that doesn't include parking or taxi to Newcastle. So the point is proven that right now rail or even air travel is not viable. Simply put if you can afford that sort of money or even the aforementioned £600+ for a rail ticket, you're probably the sort of person who can afford a car! What this also shows is that if the government want to get us out of cars to help them reach their goal of net zero emissions they need to make rail much cheaper. This is also needed so we don't make so many domestic flights. At the moment if I'm going to Glasgow or Edinburgh for work if costs less than £50 each way and even including the time to travel to the airport I can still be in either city for half 9. Rail, or indeed road, cannot match that. If the government does HS2 properly it should solve this but alas they seem to want to stop it at Leeds and Manchester.
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Post by Boxer6 on Sept 7, 2021 22:32:47 GMT
When I was a kid and going to Newquay for our hols we would put the car on the train at Newcastle’s Motorail terminal and spend the night in a sleeper cabin, waking in Exeter. I remember going to Newton Abbot by Motorail when I was about 12 or 13. The place we stayed overnight before my dad drove us to (wherever), I remember my mum downing a few glasses of proper scrumpy from a couple of locals - the stuff was really cloudy and still had bits of apple in it. I tried a couple of sips - nearly blew my head off!
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 7, 2021 23:22:51 GMT
The reason rail is so unaffordable is the infrastructure maintenance, the vehicle maintenance and the operating costs. When a road is built it is a few metres wide and a number of kms long. On that space you can fit hundreds of thousands of cars with no need to meet any schedule apart from availability. The vehicles are operator owned and insured and the revenue from them to maintain the road is gathered through nigh on unavoidable taxes on fuel and other purchases.
On a train one company (a TOC) pays another (Network Rail) to access the p-way and also a third company (a RoSCo) for the use of a vehicle (the train). The rules are that the train must be maintained by the TOC and the TOC operates the stations, staffs the trains, collects fares and offers a service. To have a viable business model they set their fares to cover these costs and other overheads. Unlike the roads, which are operated by either Highways England for majors or individual councils for all others, there are tremendously strict rules surrounding working on and around the railway. These rules have led to an escalation of costs over the years and an introduction of legal and safety requirements meaning only a handful of providers can even consider working in the rail environment - and they all price accordingly. So Network Rail pays three or four times more to maintain the p-way than a road provider, pass that cost to a TOC and then the TOC passes it on to customers under controlled pricing regulations. The RoSCos lease the trains with a recovery on capital model about one fifth of the life of service of the vehicles. When BR broke up there was a mass scramble to join a RoSCo - they make millions on a monthly basis.
So with the recent pandemic there have been no customers and the models used (by me amongst others) to develop more efficient systems and fare structures are bollocks because passenger numbers are unlikely to recover to pre-pandemic levels (when they were already in decline due to newer flexible working regulations) in the next decade. Meanwhile road vehicle use has already matched 2019 levels in most areas.
The era of personal mobility is here for the long haul. The era of same-country long-medium mass transit is dying on its arse.
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Post by johnc on Sept 8, 2021 7:13:32 GMT
but long distance travel by personal vehicle will never go away because to do so would be a restriction on the freedom of choice of the individual. You should read the Scottish Green Party's manifesto because that it exactly what they are proposing - as well as (straight from Stalin's Russia) Local People's Committees to set local rules, an annual wealth tax on the value of everything including pensions and massively higher taxes for those earning over £80K (carefully set at the salary level of a MSP)
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Post by garry on Sept 8, 2021 7:32:05 GMT
but long distance travel by personal vehicle will never go away because to do so would be a restriction on the freedom of choice of the individual. You should read the Scottish Green Party's manifesto because that it exactly what they are proposing - as well as (straight from Stalin's Russia) Local People's Committees to set local rules, an annual wealth tax on the value of everything including pensions and massively higher taxes for those earning over £80K (carefully set at the salary level of a MSP) These people always define 'wealthy' as slightly richer than them. And it comes across as envy.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 8, 2021 8:30:15 GMT
The politics of envy is one of the most frustrating aspects of modern society. There's some kind of mentality that there is a "them" and "us" which are huge swathes of society when in actuality the "us" is the vast majority. There are millions of families in the UK that have been raised in conditions that in today's world would be considered "relative poverty" (don't even start me on that term!), have worked hard and paid taxes, improved their lot yet are considered by many to belong to "them" and therefore should be taxed into oblivion. There is no consideration given to the sacrifices made by people with regard to their personal lives in getting to where they are, no consideration given to the fact that they are contributing proportionally via a percentage-based taxation system and no thought given by many that they had exactly the same opportunities but were too feckless to take them. There are large numbers of people (and many on this forum based by the numbers of Oxbridge folks) who are just naturally clever and apply that to the best extent, but then there is an expectation that they should be punitively taxed for that fortune and effort.
I'm sure someone will start a thread on the new tax grab for "social care", the vast majority of which is going straight to the highly inefficient NHS with no requirement for wholesale operational change, so I won't bang on about it here. I agree with it, especially when looking at other aspects of healthcare that are provided at no cost, but some of the arguments about it being a charge on the poorer sectors of society as it's via NI and then a ring fenced taxation thereafter is hypocrisy at its greatest as when that sector of society ages they will be the outright beneficiaries.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2021 10:06:11 GMT
I'm not exactly rolling in it, the current and future rent increases will probably stuff me royally but I have a tent at least I think I do. I have never been well off but when we (Royal WE) behave like this, what on earth is the point of going into debt in university to learn enough to then learn a trade? Where is the incentive to do anything more than bugger all? We are on a slippery path to irrelevance anyway unless we get a bloody grip and improve the country and it's educational/business acumen. If we really want the PRC to step in and run the country we are on the right path. Extreme? Possibly but either way we need to organise ourselves to build the country up rather than tear it down. Sorry, I'm not exactly a wordsmith today, word finding is bloody annoying but hey it's Hasda Be today and I am really looking forwards to that great experience.
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Post by PG on Sept 8, 2021 13:07:43 GMT
What this also shows is that if the government want to get us out of cars to help them reach their goal of net zero emissions they need to make rail much cheaper.... This is government (of all colours) we are talking about. And eco-loons (whose daft ideas have become mainstream political thought). They won't make trains cheaper. They'll just make cars more expensive.
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Post by Alex on Sept 8, 2021 14:47:58 GMT
What this also shows is that if the government want to get us out of cars to help them reach their goal of net zero emissions they need to make rail much cheaper.... This is government (of all colours) we are talking about. And eco-loons (whose daft ideas have become mainstream political thought). They won't make trains cheaper. They'll just make cars more expensive. Alas I fear you are probably spot on with that one. We'll end up back in the dark ages in terms of travel with long distance being the preserve of the rich and most of us plebs living a life where we rarely leave our village and visit the world through our virtual reality headsets.
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Post by Roadrunner on Sept 8, 2021 20:32:04 GMT
This is government (of all colours) we are talking about. And eco-loons (whose daft ideas have become mainstream political thought). They won't make trains cheaper. They'll just make cars more expensive. Alas I fear you are probably spot on with that one. We'll end up back in the dark ages in terms of travel with long distance being the preserve of the rich and most of us plebs living a life where we rarely leave our village and visit the world through our virtual reality headsets. You could be right about the step back in time. I have already gone back to 1927 for my weekend car and have considered getting a horse. Seriously, the general mood among my various vintage and classic car clubs is that the best days of personal travel have gone. We just need to be thankful that we were were there at the time and enjoy it while we can.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2021 21:12:09 GMT
I'm lucky that Bess will after another do over (Yes I know,already) be as much car as I need or can afford. Nothing wrong with that. What is the chances that there will be a growth of trade for exotic car hire? What would exotic car hire involve in a world reliant on electric cars? Golf GTi's?
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 8, 2021 22:02:38 GMT
One can always live somewhere else. Britain does seem to be at the forefront of this sort of greenwashing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2021 22:45:10 GMT
I cannot, live anywhere else. Like most people my age and the limited means available to me I am here until I go in the ground. WHat are the odds THAT rent goes up too? I know.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 10, 2021 14:57:47 GMT
The reason rail is so unaffordable is the infrastructure maintenance, the vehicle maintenance and the operating costs. So with the recent pandemic there have been no customers and the models used (by me amongst others) to develop more efficient systems and fare structures are bollocks because passenger numbers are unlikely to recover to pre-pandemic levels (when they were already in decline due to newer flexible working regulations) in the next decade. Meanwhile road vehicle use has already matched 2019 levels in most areas. The era of personal mobility is here for the long haul. The era of same-country long-medium mass transit is dying on its arse. Right on schedule from The Mash (well, as on schedule as a train needs to be to avoid giving you a refund of any kind) www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/five-things-trains-would-have-to-do-to-win-you-back-20210910211943
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Post by alf on Sept 13, 2021 9:54:18 GMT
Just to get this kind of back on topic rather than start another similar one: I really like the look of the Kia EV6 in the adverts on currently. I know, I need help, but it's a similar sporty looking SUV/estate thing with a long roof line and sleek low windows to the iPace, the only previous EV that I liked the look of at all. I mean I'm not in a hurry to buy one, I'm far too addicted to the sound of carbons flying out of my exhaust in an almost aggressively loud way, but it's a nice piece of design, and I just had a look and the reviews seem decent too...
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Post by johnc on Sept 13, 2021 10:05:32 GMT
I have a client who has just placed an order for the quick version of this, to replace his Merc C250D. His work has changed enormously due to Covid and he reckons that he will only be doing local(ish) driving from now on, so range isn't a great concern to him. I suggested that he should look at the Ford Mustang-E but he reckoned the Kia was more modern. The top of the range Kia is also about £20K less than the i-Pace based on list price although I believe £10K discount on the Jaguar isn't unheard of.
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Post by clunes on Sept 13, 2021 10:41:29 GMT
It was Kia (and Hyundai) I was referring to in my post with the EV6 and Ioniq 5. Both on the same platform with a lot of tech sharing as you’d expect but different enough from each other to provide choice in both styling and, it seems, driving style. By all accounts they have leapfrogged the more ‘established’ manufacturers in the EV space and are leading the way on most fronts. In many videos Ive watched they are being compared favourably against the likes of BMW, Mercedes etc which is a huge change from a few years back.
If I was in the market for an EV right now I’d find it hard to look beyond these options given the price, range, tech etc on offer. Not cheap by any stretch but certainly competitively priced, somewhat future proofed from a tech perspective and interesting, if marmite, styling!
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Post by ChrisM on Sept 16, 2021 20:20:44 GMT
There's not enough electricity as it is, so how are we going to recharge all the electric cars that we will soon have to drive?
Is it a big plot by politicians to bring us all to a halt?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 16, 2021 21:28:06 GMT
The idea that there’s not enough electricity to power cars is a myth. Every driver in the country could switch to electric tomorrow and there would be more than enough grid capacity to charge them overnight when there’s plenty of surplus electricity.
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Post by Tim on Sept 17, 2021 7:14:07 GMT
The idea that there’s not enough electricity to power cars is a myth. Every driver in the country could switch to electric tomorrow and there would be more than enough grid capacity to charge them overnight when there’s plenty of surplus electricity. Does that mean a chunk of offices will have to shift over to the night shift so their staff can commute? Shops too.
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Post by Roadsterstu on Sept 17, 2021 7:30:35 GMT
The idea that there’s not enough electricity to power cars is a myth. Every driver in the country could switch to electric tomorrow and there would be more than enough grid capacity to charge them overnight when there’s plenty of surplus electricity. That rather goes against what we usually hear so what or who is perpetuating this myth and why?
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 17, 2021 7:47:51 GMT
The idea that there’s not enough electricity to power cars is a myth. Every driver in the country could switch to electric tomorrow and there would be more than enough grid capacity to charge them overnight when there’s plenty of surplus electricity. That rather goes against what we usually hear so what or who is perpetuating this myth and why? No idea. Certainly National Grid have no concerns. There's always been surplus electricity at night - that's why there was Economy 7 and special tariffs for industries to use it at night. Nuclear power stations and wind farms don't stop generating so if the power can't be stored in something i.e electric car batteries, it's wasted. Once everyone has gone to bed there is very little demand on the grid. Add in smart management, where cars can be staggered charged overnight and it's even less stress on the system. We've also passed peak electricity use in the UK and low energy bulbs, appliances, industry efficiencies have driven down the annual demand requirements. We build a product for an Irish company and it is just a smart control for your immersion heater. Instead of using gas to give you a tank of hot water it uses the immersion heater. Normally this would be very expensive but it uses a special tariff from the energy companies to heat it overnight for low cost as they are just happy to get something for electricity that would normally be wasted. It's a small, simple and cheap step towards much greater smart energy control to manage peak demands and saves on the gas normally required to heat your water.
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Post by Alex on Sept 17, 2021 14:49:40 GMT
Most modern EVs are also being designed to act as batteries that can give back to the grid. I saw something that reckoned that if the national grid needed to it could take 10% of the power from all the cars plugged in and get enough leccy to power London for a month. Using smart systems they could take a few % from your car whilst it's plugged in and then give it back if it's still plugged in once the demand has dropped and you'd be none the wiser. Useful for when they have to get ready for all the kettles to be turned on at the stroke of half time during the big game.
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