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Post by Big Blue on Sept 6, 2021 14:55:22 GMT
So I did see my first 71 reg today and I think it was an ID4. I say think because earlier in the trip I saw an EQA and when I came up behind the ID4 I assumed it was the same model.   |
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 6, 2021 15:11:42 GMT
Fridges on wheels but without the promise of anything tasty inside.
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Post by clunes on Sept 6, 2021 15:31:24 GMT
I think the ‘traditional’ manufacturers are largely very unimaginative basically churning out white goods EVs and the previously boring manufacturers are now taking the lead - at least doing something slightly different with models like the Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 - love them or hate them at least they’re trying something vaguely new!
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Post by johnc on Sept 6, 2021 15:36:19 GMT
Fridges on wheels but without the promise of anything tasty inside. It's coming your way one day soon(ish) Racing but it really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. |
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Post by Blarno on Sept 6, 2021 15:54:15 GMT
They're largely not made for people who enjoy cars, hence the comparison with appliances.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Sept 6, 2021 16:15:58 GMT
I think the opportunities presented by electric drivetrains - skateboard chassis, instant torque and low centre of gravity will translate into a range of attractive vehicles for enthusiasts. We might go back to the beginnings of car manufacturers where one company produced a rolling chassis and another coachbuilder customised it to their customers' tastes. You'd have to be pretty lacking in imagination if you can't see the possibilities.
I can imagine horse riders at the turn of the 19th century deriding the advent of the car as being of little interest to those who liked to ride.
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Post by johnc on Sept 6, 2021 16:38:05 GMT
Regardless of what some testers may say, I find the i-Pace a great drive. I wouldn't necessarily take it round a race track but on your average A or B road, it absorbs the bumps exceptionally well whilst maintaining good body control and it corners flat and fast. It is a different experience, yes, but it is involving in different ways and massively better than most ICE SUV's except the likes of vehicles from Porsche and some from BMW but I bet none of them ride as well. I find the steering has good weight and pretty good communication and the instant torque makes it really quick: the way it powers out of bends is stretching many of the laws of physics and the maximum regeneration setting allows really quick one pedal driving with significant braking power. These are things that can't be appreciated on a short test drive and it is a car that grows on you over time. Obviously the range gets hammered if you drive quickly but for most journeys that isn't an issue especially if you want to keep your licence.
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Post by Blarno on Sept 6, 2021 17:18:13 GMT
I was behind a Kia of some sort before and it had exactly the same rear light setup. It was also white.
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Post by Martin on Sept 6, 2021 17:38:30 GMT
Regardless of what some testers may say, I find the i-Pace a great drive. I wouldn't necessarily take it round a race track but on your average A or B road, it absorbs the bumps exceptionally well whilst maintaining good body control and it corners flat and fast. It is a different experience, yes, but it is involving in different ways and massively better than most ICE SUV's except the likes of vehicles from Porsche and some from BMW but I bet none of them ride as well. I find the steering has good weight and pretty good communication and the instant torque makes it really quick: the way it powers out of bends is stretching many of the laws of physics and the maximum regeneration setting allows really quick one pedal driving with significant braking power. These are things that can't be appreciated on a short test drive and it is a car that grows on you over time. Obviously the range gets hammered if you drive quickly but for most journeys that isn't an issue especially if you want to keep your licence. And from someone who really does have a car with a proper engine (V8)!   The JLR chassis engineers are really very good and clearly don’t listen to the marketing team like some other manufacturers and make the car ride really badly so people think it’s ‘sporty’ when in reality it’s nothing of the sort as you have to back off all the time (X3M Competition being a good example). I’m regularly amazed how well my car goes down the road on top of its being very comfortable and having off road capability way above what I’ll ever use. Until I get around to having my half day experience anyway…. I love a great sounding engine as much as anyone, but the way a car feels is more important as you benefit (or otherwise) from it every minute behind the wheel. Both is ideal of course. I don’t have a fundamental issue with electric cars, it’s mainly the range and infrastructure. Good styling is important whatever the power train, so I’d have zero interest in the ID4 or EQA no matter the performance or range. |
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Post by Alex on Sept 7, 2021 7:35:53 GMT
Range isn't a major issue for me in most instances because with my current working pattern it would be rare for me to drive 200+ miles a day and if I was going from the SE to one of the major cities up north (Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle etc) I'd go by train rather than sit on the M1 or M6 for hours on end. But there are times when that isn't possible so an EV that does about 200 miles will need charging en route.
That's OK in principle but with the current charging infrastructure that means considerable downtime compared to an ICE car. Its for this reason that our company won't allow us to choose EVs as our company cars. It is a policy that is under regular review and I do think that in 2-3 years time it will change. It also requires a rethink on how our 'fuel' is paid for. Currently we have unlimited used of fuel cards and pay BIK on this. Moving to plugging in cars at home will require a rethink of how this is paid for and what the company pays for. Luckily for me its not my job to work that out!
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Post by Martin on Sept 7, 2021 8:33:11 GMT
Range isn't a major issue for me in most instances because with my current working pattern it would be rare for me to drive 200+ miles a day and if I was going from the SE to one of the major cities up north (Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle etc) I'd go by train rather than sit on the M1 or M6 for hours on end. But there are times when that isn't possible so an EV that does about 200 miles will need charging en route. That's OK in principle but with the current charging infrastructure that means considerable downtime compared to an ICE car. Its for this reason that our company won't allow us to choose EVs as our company cars. It is a policy that is under regular review and I do think that in 2-3 years time it will change. It also requires a rethink on how our 'fuel' is paid for. Currently we have unlimited used of fuel cards and pay BIK on this. Moving to plugging in cars at home will require a rethink of how this is paid for and what the company pays for. Luckily for me its not my job to work that out! Do you do enough private miles to make that a cost effective option for you? I used to have a funded fuel card, but opted out many years ago as even doing 10k+ private mileage it was cheaper to pay for it myself, although that was with a much higher Co2 than your car. We still have fuel cards for company car drivers, but you enter all your mileage online and it works out the actual cost of the private mileage rather than a p/mile which is a better way of doing it. I get a p/mile rate, which even with this months increase to 15p, is 6-7p per mile short! Back to electric, the advisory rate is 4p per mile which is just about OK if you charge at home on a decent tariff but a lot less than it costs when charging on the road which is starting to create issues. People quickly forget how much tax they're saving by having the electric car. |
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Post by johnc on Sept 7, 2021 9:05:57 GMT
It's obviously very car specific but in round terms and using average figures you need to do at least 7,500 private miles as a basic rate taxpayer and 15,000 as a higher rate taxpayer to make it worthwhile to take the fuel benefit in kind. Martin is right about the electric fuel rate - it barely covers the cost of charging at home on a cheapish electricity rate and is only between a quarter and a half of what it costs to charge on the road.
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Post by Alex on Sept 7, 2021 9:35:29 GMT
Its difficult to say whether I do enough miles to make the fuel card BIK worth it. I take the pragmatic view that I don't have to do any calculations each time I pop to the shop and I look at the overall tax on my car which is approx £180/m which for a new, fully maintained and insured car is a bargain.
If I moved to EV that would drop to less than £200 a year which is beyond bargain. Its an absolute steal! (Based on current monthly BIK of £13 for an EV with a £40k list) But you are right to point out how many people forget this when they moan about how much it costs to charge.
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Post by racingteatray on Sept 7, 2021 10:10:52 GMT
Fridges on wheels but without the promise of anything tasty inside. It's coming your way one day soon(ish) Racing but it really isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. Calm down dear! I don't doubt some electric vehicles are and will be desirable and fun. The two that kicked off the thread are not, but then their petrol-powered equivalents aren't either. Most of my practical objections to having an electric car will evaporate once range and infrastructure (absolutely key that second part) are functioning properly. But most real world tests report an experience that is currently one I assuredly do not have the time and patience for - few chargers, queues, chargers that don't function, multifarious apps and charging attachments. I don't really do stops when driving long-distance - I just want to get there in as short a time as possible - the first time we did the trip to Italy together, my wife fondly imagined stops for sit-down meals. Over time she has come to appreciate my splash and dash approach. Plus I am not fond of range anxiety - I rarely allow the tank to go below a quarter full. So I'd have an electric Fiat 500e tomorrow if the wife would agree to the change, because that would make perfect sense in London and I'd never need to charge it anywhere other than home. Actually what I'd really like is a Honda E, but the range is just currently too crap - barely 100 miles in real world usage whereas a Fiat 500e is more like 150 miles. |
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Post by chipbutty on Sept 7, 2021 10:39:41 GMT
Most normal/average cars are boring – because they aren’t built to be enjoyable to look at, sit in or drive – they are designed to do a job at a price.
A Tiguan is no more exciting or covetable than an ID4 (unless they do a secret V8 version I am not aware of) and the same can be said of much of the other fluff available. However, if you ignore range and charging for now, I’d much rather have silent and swishy EV propulsion than your ” common or garden ” 4 cylinder engine.
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Post by Ben on Sept 7, 2021 11:45:26 GMT
I was just looking at the new small VW ID concept they unveiled this week, and it struck me how similar it looked to that Honda e thing.
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Post by Roadrunner on Sept 7, 2021 12:31:41 GMT
Most normal/average cars are boring – because they aren’t built to be enjoyable to look at, sit in or drive – they are designed to do a job at a price. A Tiguan is no more exciting or covetable than an ID4 (unless they do a secret V8 version I am not aware of) and the same can be said of much of the other fluff available. However, if you ignore range and charging for now, I’d much rather have silent and swishy EV propulsion than your ” common or garden ” 4 cylinder engine. I agree. My default position for a daily driver is wafty torque and an EV will do this better than a 1.6 VW four. Still clinging onto my 3.0 V6 while I can, though... |
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Post by PG on Sept 7, 2021 13:00:53 GMT
Most normal/average cars are boring – because they aren’t built to be enjoyable to look at, sit in or drive – they are designed to do a job at a price... I agree. My default position for a daily driver is wafty torque and an EV will do this better than a 1.6 VW four. Still clinging onto my 3.0 V6 while I can, though... I think as the death of ICE approaches maybe we are looking at ICE through rose tinted spectacles? As said in the quote and by others above, there are many terminally dull "white goods" ICE cars out there. And for that an EV is probably actually better, apart from the charging infrastructure that remains the main issue. But that does not stop these type of EV cars being relentlessly dull - step forward the entire ID range as exhibit 1. For us a MINI EV would do all our local and here and there trips, but would be hopeless on a longer trip due top its poor range. Which means that in these early days, EV's have really put car transport back 50-60 years. Back then a smaller, low powered, city / crappy car could go on a long journey but felt like it would explode at any moment and you got out at the end shaking from the NVH. Now it is poor range that means that smaller city EV's are not really suitable for longer trips. |
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Post by Alex on Sept 7, 2021 13:52:25 GMT
But perhaps more people need to ask themselves how often they actually do those longer trips. No point complaining that an EV can't make it from London to Cornwall if you only do that journey once a year.
I think that a bigger picture view of long distance travel needs to be taken by all of us going into the future, especially with climate change starting to bite us in the bum. Most of us on here (including myself) wouldn't dream of using the train for such a holiday but that's because we have ICE cars which can provide us with the transport we need at much lower cost and are night and day more convenient. But if we had better long distance rail links and were willing to take on a hire car once we arrived it could be done. But right now there's no incentive.
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Post by Martin on Sept 7, 2021 13:56:17 GMT
I agree. My default position for a daily driver is wafty torque and an EV will do this better than a 1.6 VW four. Still clinging onto my 3.0 V6 while I can, though... I think as the death of ICE approaches maybe we are looking at ICE through rose tinted spectacles? As said in the quote and by others above, there are many terminally dull "white goods" ICE cars out there. And for that an EV is probably actually better, apart from the charging infrastructure that remains the main issue. But that does not stop these type of EV cars being relentlessly dull - step forward the entire ID range as exhibit 1. For us a MINI EV would do all our local and here and there trips, but would be hopeless on a longer trip due top its poor range. Which means that in these early days, EV's have really put car transport back 50-60 years. Back then a smaller, low powered, city / crappy car could go on a long journey but felt like it would explode at any moment and you got out at the end shaking from the NVH. Now it is poor range that means that smaller city EV's are not really suitable for longer trips. If only you had a nice, comfortable, luxurious car for longer trips, you could have a MINI E just for the local stuff.....! |
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 7, 2021 14:14:40 GMT
……Most of us on here (including myself) wouldn't dream of using the train for such a holiday but that's because we have ICE cars which can provide us with the transport we need at much lower cost and are night and day more convenient. But if we had better long distance rail links and were willing to take on a hire car once we arrived it could be done. But right now there's no incentive. The genie of personal transport for the masses cannot be squashed back in the lamp. That aside, we essentially do just this for long trips (apart from this year) as we fly to where we’re going and rent when we get there - we even planned to do that for a trip to Scotland before last year’s lockdown. As to the bit in bold: absolutely no chance of this ever being the case since the advent of the dormitory suburbs and the rise of new urbanisation post-Beeching. For us to get to high speed rail links we need a suburban train and a taxi or tube, all with our luggage and a 6 and 9 y-o in tow. Plus the uk rail network is entirely designed around the division of routes around London with termini either side of the river. As with weight gain v. Weight loss: it will take a lot longer than the past 170 years since the “railway mania” period to change the railway layout of the UK, say about 300 years as a minimum. I’m not being flippant by the way. The age of fossil-fuel ICE may be winding down but long distance travel by personal vehicle will never go away because to do so would be a restriction on the freedom of choice of the individual. |
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Post by LandieMark on Sept 7, 2021 14:23:30 GMT
But perhaps more people need to ask themselves how often they actually do those longer trips. No point complaining that an EV can't make it from London to Cornwall if you only do that journey once a year. I think that a bigger picture view of long distance travel needs to be taken by all of us going into the future, especially with climate change starting to bite us in the bum. Most of us on here (including myself) wouldn't dream of using the train for such a holiday but that's because we have ICE cars which can provide us with the transport we need at much lower cost and are night and day more convenient. But if we had better long distance rail links and were willing to take on a hire car once we arrived it could be done. But right now there's no incentive. It isn't just longer trips. I need something that can tow a decent capacity - that means at least 3 tonnes and there isn't an EV that can do that as of yet. I don't want to run an EV and a tow/utility vehicle as it isn't affordable in terms of purchase or lease costs. Climate change isn't an argument as for an EV to be climate neutral, it has to offset its build costs in some way and use climate neutral electricity exclusivley. The charging is too much of a pain for me to consider any distance in one. What you describe above is my idea of hell. I wouldn't want to give up my own personal mode of transport for public transport to go on holiday (aircraft aside) and then rent at the other end - again, cost would be prohibitive. Trains in my experience are cramped, overcrowded inconvenient, expensive and uncomfortable unless you pay through the nose for First and four of those still apply even if links are massively improved. |
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Post by Martin on Sept 7, 2021 14:45:00 GMT
But perhaps more people need to ask themselves how often they actually do those longer trips. No point complaining that an EV can't make it from London to Cornwall if you only do that journey once a year. I think that a bigger picture view of long distance travel needs to be taken by all of us going into the future, especially with climate change starting to bite us in the bum. Most of us on here (including myself) wouldn't dream of using the train for such a holiday but that's because we have ICE cars which can provide us with the transport we need at much lower cost and are night and day more convenient. But if we had better long distance rail links and were willing to take on a hire car once we arrived it could be done. But right now there's no incentive. It isn't just longer trips. I need something that can tow a decent capacity - that means at least 3 tonnes and there isn't an EV that can do that as of yet. I don't want to run an EV and a tow/utility vehicle as it isn't affordable in terms of purchase or lease costs. Climate change isn't an argument as for an EV to be climate neutral, it has to offset its build costs in some way and use climate neutral electricity exclusivley. The charging is too much of a pain for me to consider any distance in one. What you describe above is my idea of hell. I wouldn't want to give up my own personal mode of transport for public transport to go on holiday (aircraft aside) and then rent at the other end - again, cost would be prohibitive. Trains in my experience are cramped, overcrowded inconvenient, expensive and uncomfortable unless you pay through the nose for First and four of those still apply even if links are massively improved. Mine too. I hate public transport and would always choose the car unless flying is the better option. We had a few days in London recently and going by car would have been mad (as would flying!), but I minimised the public transport pain by going from Milton Keynes (40mins drive from home, 30-35mins on the train into Euston), first class and then a Cab at the other end. Managed to avoid the tube the whole time we were there as well which was great and we walked 22 miles across the 4 days which helped offset some of the food/drink. The congestion charge needs to be increased though, there are still far too many cars in the road in central London (especially on Sunday afternoon), it took us as long to do the 2.5 miles from the hotel to Euston as it did the c50 miles from Euston to MK. |
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Post by PG on Sept 7, 2021 15:56:31 GMT
…… .. better long distance rail links and were willing to take on a hire car once we arrived it could be done. But right now there's no incentive. This. Our whole society has been transformed by the availability of personal transport in the shape of cars, vans and lorries. Too many eco-nutters basically wish they could un-invent the car. The railways had their heyday (for those that could afford them of course), but once people had tasted the freedom that cars gave them, there was no going back. Our whole society revolves around personal transport. |
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Post by PG on Sept 7, 2021 16:03:23 GMT
.. What you describe above is my idea of hell... Mine too. I hate public transport and would always choose the car unless flying is the better option. .. First class on trains is OK. Most times I tried to go to London 2nd class somebody is always sitting in my reserved seat. Like Martin, I'd rather drive to Birmingham International (1 hour away) to get a good frequency of direct trains to Euston to get to that thar London than piss about changing trains and hanging about. The mode of public transport I absolutely loathe is the bus (or coach). I just about manage the park and ride but that's it. You never see cheerful people on a bus. I once said to a friend of mine that in my old dotage (having done everything else), my definition of final success will be not having to take the bus everywhere but to still be able to afford a car (or taxi). |
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Post by Alex on Sept 7, 2021 20:24:48 GMT
I don't disagree with any of that. Like I said, I'm also in the camp of not wanting to give up personal transport and certainly EVs are not the solution or in any way net carbon neutral right now and won't be for some years yet to come. But at some point I believe that from a societal point of view the use of personal transport for all longer trips will diminish or become much more the preserve of the wealthy as the days of being able to own and run a cheap second hand car disappear. Part of the reason we need HS2 is to provide more people with that alternative means of travelling across the country.
I'm probably wrong so I'll happily accept an alternative argument on this. And as I say I agree that personal transport is by far my preference. I just can see it becoming a more expensive preference whether through taxation or general rising costs.
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Post by LandieMark on Sept 7, 2021 20:40:37 GMT
Purely out of interest, I put in our holiday destination later in the month.
We are having a week in Torquay. I'm taking the truck and we are spending a night in Leamington Spa which is about halfway. I would have been happy to drive the full 6 hours in one go but it is a nice start to the holiday.
The fastest train from Durham would take 8 hours, 2 changes and cost £1000 first class. The cheapest is 12 hours, 4 changes and £600 first class and first isn't available for the whole journey.
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Post by Andy C on Sept 7, 2021 20:44:33 GMT
A train to Euston from here is 1hr. When I went in June, I paid about £15 return. Standard class is fine for me for an hour .
I also like getting around by tube.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 7, 2021 20:45:43 GMT
Societal mobility and sheer numbers means mass transit by timetabled trains is a no no. When there was huge transit by rail the population was far smaller and less mobile, with families not leaving their locale for generations - hence Tre, Try, Pol and Pen being used to indicate Cornishmen because they’d never made it to Devon.
There is also the almost fantastical speed of development in the modern era which has led to the demise of steam and coal from once utter dominance in a relatively short time frame. These EVs we see now may look like utter folly, as we see steam cars, because of the limitations we in this era accept that the multi-plasma-folic-acid fuelled vehicles of 2121 have eradicated.
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Post by Andy C on Sept 7, 2021 20:47:37 GMT
Purely out of interest, I put in our holiday destination later in the month. We are having a week in Torquay. I'm taking the truck and we are spending a night in Leamington Spa which is about halfway. I would have been happy to drive the full 6 hours in one go but it is a nice start to the holiday. The fastest train from Durham would take 8 hours, 2 changes and cost £1000 first class. The cheapest is 12 hours, 4 changes and £600 first class and first isn't available for the whole journey. This is where cheap airlines are good . Ok you’re going Torquay not Newquay , but years ago I went to Newquay from Birmingham for about £20 . It was on bmibaby (remember them) and took about 30mins |
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