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Post by johnc on May 18, 2021 7:55:23 GMT
I read this this morning: www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059....and I wondered just exactly what the powers that be would consider to be an affordable alternative and exactly how they are going to install all those systems in all the houses in the next 15 years or so. Modern boilers are expected to have a maximum life of around 15 years and a very large number of people will have boilers that need replaced in the next 5 to 10 years. If they can't get a new gas boiler what is their alternative? An electric alternative is likely to cost 3 or 4 times more to run than a gas boiler - I know that to my cost, when we had to rely on an immerser for hot water for nearly 6 months last year after our boiler stopped working and no-one would come out to fix it. We had no heating at all for that period and a £1,000 electric bill just for hot water and lights etc. Our next door neighbours have just had a ground source heat pump system installed and although he won't tell me the full cost, I get the feeling it was at least £25K and a good bit more than he budgeted for - that is simply not an option for most home owners. Someone had better come up with a cost effective solution pretty quickly!
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Post by Tim on May 18, 2021 8:08:25 GMT
One of the houses we looked at a couple of years ago had the whole suite of renewables - wind turbine, solar panels and ground source heat pump.
In addition to the installation cost I suspect the maintenance could become quite expensive after a while - the wind turbine was on a 20 foot pole and required an annual service at £300 + parts and the bits of the ground source that you could see (the large condenser in a cupboard plus associated pipework) looked complicated and that's before you think of the several hundred metres of PLASTIC pipe that's buried a metre or so in your garden just waiting to be damaged at some point in the future.
I hope to see the availability of a small wind turbine, maybe the size of an air conditioning unit, that you could have in a distant corner of your garden but it'd need to be able to be placed on the ground so protected from inquisitive wildlife and other visitors. It would have to be affordable as well, not the price of a car. Does such a thing exist?
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Post by PG on May 18, 2021 9:35:22 GMT
....and I wondered just exactly what the powers that be would consider to be an affordable alternative and exactly how they are going to install all those systems in all the houses in the next 15 years or so.... ..Our next door neighbours have just had a ground source heat pump system installed and although he won't tell me the full cost, I get the feeling it was at least £25K and a good bit more than he budgeted for - that is simply not an option for most home owners. Someone had better come up with a cost effective solution pretty quickly! This is rather the elephant in the room for the whole "net zero" shindig. A pure electric boiler is suicidally expensive. And in fact electric boilers are heavily penalised in EPC ratings. So, heat pumps are the only way forward. Good luck telling all home owners that they need to spend £20k+ on an air or ground source heat pump to replace their boiler. It seems that the bright idea amongst some policy makers to "convince" people is to ban all other options. Like the electric car decision. And air source heat pumps are not the efficient at colder temperatures (like a good UK winter). And without tons of space the only way to go ground source is a borehole and that's the most expensive way. Some local friends have a ground source heat pump plus about 12KW of solar panels. They did all the work as they refurbished a house, so it needed new heating anyway. Plus they havthe land for the pipes and the outbuildings roofs for the solar. We've got the space for a ground source heat pump if we wanted / had to go that route. I've also been idly lookig at te internet for solar + a Tesla Powerwall. But by heck, all that stuff adds up and you're soon easily spending £20k+. This could be the point at which the electorate go "fuck this green shit". And when this becomes mainstream, it'll be political dynamite.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2021 10:19:55 GMT
If the mining of crypto currencies was halted, a global saving in the order of the electricity consumption of Argentina could be made. Worth it? For those involved possibly not but then the enactment of policy should not be placed in the hand of those with a vested interest or of those associated with anyone who does. Look at the plastic/packaging industry. They have repeatedly failed to do anything positive over decades and cry fowl when it is suggested they have to change. Pathetic.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 18, 2021 10:34:24 GMT
Talking to Northern Gas Networks, they are running trials in the Leeds area where they are blending hydrogen with natural gas as a way of reducing emissions. Going forward the major boiler manufacturers are developing hydrogen fuelled boilers. Other options include bio fuelled oil boilers and heat interface units in high density housing.
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Post by Tim on May 18, 2021 10:51:58 GMT
Isn't the biggest obstacle actually legislation?
I've read that Porsche, among others no doubt, are looking at synthetic fuels that would allow zero emissions but continued use of ICE engines but the chances are that Governments (probably not the Germans if their car industry pushes hard enough) will simply legislate that the future needs to be electric therefore no ICE engines, zero emission or not.
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Post by chipbutty on May 18, 2021 11:02:08 GMT
The comments section of that article is pleasingly on point.
I am just going to ignore all this bollocks and hope it goes away.
Let's see how long this narrative continues when the global financial apocalypse is unleashed.
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Post by michael on May 18, 2021 14:51:42 GMT
Net zero is madness.
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Post by LandieMark on May 18, 2021 18:53:06 GMT
I'd love to try and heat my house with air source heat pump. Ground source is possible, but at what cost? I'll be buying a new oil boiler just before anything like this goes ahead. Either that or burn lots of wood/smokeless.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 18, 2021 20:24:52 GMT
I'd love to try and heat my house with air source heat pump. Ground source is possible, but at what cost? I'll be buying a new oil boiler just before anything like this goes ahead. Either that or burn lots of wood/smokeless. Why wouldn’t you just run your boiler on biofuel?
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Post by Alex on May 18, 2021 21:03:46 GMT
As with all these things, the issue is going to be cost and how viable those costs are to the everyman on the street. I'm sure there are a lot of upper middle class homeowners who could stomach the cost but for most people it's just too much. Same with electric cars, those who typically buy ICE powered superminis dont normally have the funds to go electric at £30k+. Hence the move to all electric vehicles is not going to happen by 2030 even with the ban coming in. The only way it'll happen is if the price of petrol starts going up towards the £2/ltr mark or more.
We've got solar panels for our electricity and I recently looked at battery storage so I'd be able to use the power generated during the day in the evening but with my current electric bill being less than £30/month it would take almost 20 years before I get any payback.
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Post by ChrisM on May 18, 2021 21:05:21 GMT
How is the gas supply to existing homes managed as demand falls when boilers are replaced? Nobody is looking at the whole picture again, just like what happens to petrol stations when new cars all "have" to be electric
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Post by michael on May 18, 2021 21:08:12 GMT
The problem with so much of this is it doesn’t add up. A friend of mine owns the local golf club. He installed a wood pellet boiler that, thanks to subsidy, will benefit him to the tune of £250k over the next 20 years. The wood pellets are imported from North America. I’d hazard this is more carbon intensive than a gas boiler but he doesn’t care as he makes a fortune out of it and it pretty much paid to have his heating on in summer. Carbon taxes are too often a tax on the poor to pay the rich.
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Post by LandieMark on May 19, 2021 6:18:58 GMT
I'd love to try and heat my house with air source heat pump. Ground source is possible, but at what cost? I'll be buying a new oil boiler just before anything like this goes ahead. Either that or burn lots of wood/smokeless. Why wouldn’t you just run your boiler on biofuel? Is that allowed? No problem then. I will still burn wood/smokeless anyway as we have a dual fuel system.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on May 19, 2021 8:54:22 GMT
Why wouldn’t you just run your boiler on biofuel? Is that allowed? No problem then. I will still burn wood/smokeless anyway as we have a dual fuel system. Well from what I've read, in this brave new world, biofuel will be classed as carbon neutral so those with oil boilers will be ok.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2021 9:00:13 GMT
I can see people who rent getting a big stick. It will more than sting.
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Post by Roadsterstu on May 26, 2021 10:28:23 GMT
Are any of these proposed changes targeted at anywhere other than homeowners? I often wonder just how many small changes across business and other organisations - councils, schools, public services - could add up to a bigger improvement relatively easily. Examples I often see schools or office buildings at night with just about every light on, shops whose heating constantly battles the cold air pouring out of open fridges or, in the summer, whose air conditioning fights against the warm air pouring in through open doors. Is housing the biggest contributor or is industry, commerce and other sectors a bigger issue? It feels like the easiest to legislate against is you and I.
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Post by Roadrunner on May 26, 2021 11:55:38 GMT
I shall never forget the time I had to take E to Banbury hospital. We were shown into a small room where the radiators were almost going into meltdown. When I commented on how warm it was there the nurse turned the air conditioner on full blast.
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Post by Alex on May 26, 2021 12:11:57 GMT
Youd be amazed how many older school buildings have a heating system that has two settings: sauna and ice room. They tend also to have a very basic timer system too with system at full blast October to March and decommissioned April to September. My wife's school is a case in point. Theres been numerous occasions where they have to open all the windows in October or March to let some of the heat out whilst also occasionally having to let the kids wear their coats in class in April.
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Post by PG on Jun 16, 2021 16:11:57 GMT
Why wouldn’t you just run your boiler on biofuel? Is that allowed? No problem then. I will still burn wood/smokeless anyway as we have a dual fuel system. I hadn't realised that bio-fuel might be OK. That's a big relief. However, eco-loons hate bio-fuels almost as much as fossil fuels, so I will not hold my breath on bio-fuels remaining OK or being cheap.
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Post by PG on Jun 16, 2021 16:14:27 GMT
I can see people who rent getting a big stick. It will more than sting. Landlords are going to have to stump up some big cash in the next few years. A final proposal is due out later this year, but rumour is that all residential rental properties are going to have be EPC rated C or better. That's going to be expensive for anything built before cavity walls became a thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2021 18:02:44 GMT
I believe our walls have cavity filling but, the window frames fit where they sometimes touch the walls and doors well, less said the better. £68 per month increase over each end of the last financial year and more expected next year, they are going to make us pay for the repairs needed, again. We none of us done with being spanked for a while.
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Post by ChrisM on Jun 16, 2021 19:29:30 GMT
^ Time to start looking for new accommodation, or is Haigh's rent still well below market rates?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2021 21:22:26 GMT
Always on the lookout but there is a dearth of accommodation for single folk, couples are the preferred renters. To a very large degree, they have us over a barrel.
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