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Post by ChrisM on Nov 13, 2020 20:07:39 GMT
Much "concern" being reported by the drivers as to how slippery the track is, having only been resurfaced a few weeks ago, plus ambient temperature being a bit on the cool side. Plenty of sliding and spins from the highlights I have seen, but will it be significantly more grippy by race day?
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Post by Sav on Nov 14, 2020 0:10:07 GMT
The track conditions were terrible, but it was entertaining to watch the drivers spin the rears in fifth gear. Even by FP2 the track still had a sheen to it, like the asphalt just couldn't fully absorb the water that was there in FP1. Truly bizarre situation.
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Post by Sav on Nov 14, 2020 10:22:41 GMT
I think F1 now faces a very difficult situation. It was heavily raining in FP3, and the level of grip was hilariously bad. Its unbelievably treacherous even in a straight line. Its not aquaplaning, the track surface simply isn't suitable. The drivers think they are safe going around the curved straight between turns 1 and 2, only for the rear to step out at 200 kph. Sainz almost threw it in the barrier because of that. What happens in qualifying? At best the drivers need at least five warm up laps in my view. Its a vicious circle, the track surface won't allow the drivers to push, meaning the tyre temperature just can't be generated. Somewhere like turn 11 is no longer a flat-kink, its now a corner. I suppose one could argue that the best drivers will adapt, but the loss of traction in high gears on straights is a cause for concern. Last night the track organisers had road cars going around the track to generate rubber. I think someone hadn't told them it doesn't work like that!  |
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Post by johnc on Nov 14, 2020 11:27:24 GMT
It's good to see Verstappen showing his skills in the difficult conditions and Red Bull's cornering grip and balance may just play into his hands if conditions stay poor.
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Post by ChrisM on Nov 15, 2020 15:42:01 GMT
Another one of those "How did Lewis win that one?" moments for me.
Not having TV access, I was watching the updates on the web and Lewis was down in about 5th or 6th, so I went for my exercise walk, not having left the house since Wednesday afternoon. I got home and Lewis had won.
Reminded me of the German GP some years ago when I was up in Aberdeen following a business trip and on my way back to the airport.... Lewis was down the order somewhere, I stopped and went into the now-defunct Maplin store and when I came back out to drive the last few miles to the airport, he was in the lead.
Anyway, the true drive of a champion, winning the world title with a not-too easy victory, having to fight through the field after a fairly disastrous qualifying where only the 2019 Mercedes (?) seemed to work really well
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Post by Sav on Nov 15, 2020 17:51:30 GMT
I agree, it was surprising that Mercedes left it so late to contemplate pitting Hamilton. If drivers like Stroll, Verstappen and Vettel had started to go faster than Hamilton the latter would have been undercut. It was probably the closest that F1 got to a relatively level playing field in recent years. Vettel and Leclerc both drove brilliantly, that car didn't deserve fourth and fifth. The Mercedes didn't look that great, but staying with those old intermediates worked brilliantly for Hamilton. The other driver in the same car finished a lap down and spun six times.
Albon, it was looking good for him. He lost his head. So did Verstappen. Max’s attempted pass on Perez was so ill-timed; it was blatantly obvious that he was going to run out of road being so close in that turbulence. I think Hamilton had a similar issue when he had Verstappen's level of experience and not really thinking big picture. He demanded new tyres whenever his pace ebbed away, which proved to be the wrong call today, as new inters grained too quickly and just didn't provide the advantage that new tyres usually do. I think Verstappen will learn overtime, it was all a bit rash and panic today. One thing was strange, Verstappen spun behind Albon, but it only took Verstappen a lap to catch Albon and pass him. A bit like Stroll, Albon's pace was nowhere towards the end.
Stroll's race pace ultimately wasn't good enough. He built such a big gap to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Hamilton, he simply failed to keep up with the changing racetrack.
What does Turkey teach us? It wouldn’t be great to have such poor levels of grip every week. However I think lessons can be learnt from the weekend. It looked like a real challenge to drive the cars, the visible driver control was evident with the snaps of oversteer in high speed corners. It looked a bit terrifying; the drivers really had to think what they were doing, from the entry, middle to the exit of the corner. Those who got it wrong were punished; those who had the finesse and feel were rewarded. I sound like broken record, but it’s that sort of visible driver skill and racing that illustrates why F1 cars need drastically less downforce. In the dry it wouldn’t have been quite as dramatic, but fundamentally the drivers shouldn’t be flat through turn eight, corners shouldn’t become mere formalities with tiny lifts. Still to this day, I haven't heard any viewers or spectators demanding that F1 cars must do a certain laptime. I really hope that 2022 delivers, because its about time that F1 delivers a consistently raceable product. Its no good lapping at 1:25 or whatever if the racing sends people to sleep.
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Post by Alex on Nov 15, 2020 20:07:49 GMT
Utterly imperious. Every rival screwed up and span but Lewis kept his head and showed why he's a 7x world champion (psst. little clue for all the haters, it isn't just his car). Watching Valterri spin on the same corner twice before being lapped by both Red Bulls was just painfully embarrassing. And yet there are still people who think any driver could win the championship if they were given that Mercedes to do it in. Well Bottas has had that car for four years and hasn't even been close.
Lewis was, I think, the only driver who only pitted once, and yet his car control throughout the race was immense. I'd say that is easily one of the most impressive drives of his career. It really is about time more people in this country were proud of their fellow Brits achievement. Sadly they'll still point to him living in a tax haven (like most other F1 drivers) or standing up for BLM (because being called a ni**er by other drivers parents when he was growing up doesn't qualify him to know anything of racism) and say he's just a cock who deserves no praise because all he does is drive a car. 🤦♂️
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 20:16:01 GMT
Well, eventful and demonstrated the cruelty of sport. I thought Mr Stroll did a bloody good job under the circumstances. A champions performance from Mr Hamilton and Valteri was, well, nowhere. What happened there I wonder. Sergio also did good and the chat about him going to Red Bull? You have to wonder really and they could do worse.
It was a crazy race but I was on the edge of my sofa.
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Post by Alex on Nov 15, 2020 20:23:02 GMT
I think Red Bull would be mad not to consider Perez. If Max can get closer to Lewis next year they need a second driver who reliably brings home points. With two consistent drivers they're much more likely to push Mercedes for the championship than with a second driver who struggles to keep up with the midfield.
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Post by humphreythepug on Nov 15, 2020 20:30:19 GMT
I agree, it was surprising that Mercedes left it so late to contemplate pitting Hamilton. If drivers like Stroll, Verstappen and Vettel had started to go faster than Hamilton the latter would have been undercut. It was probably the closest that F1 got to a relatively level playing field in recent years. Vettel and Leclerc both drove brilliantly, that car didn't deserve fourth and fifth. The Mercedes didn't look that great, but staying with those old intermediates worked brilliantly for Hamilton. The other driver in the same car finished a lap down and spun six times. Albon, it was looking good for him. He lost his head. So did Verstappen. Max’s attempted pass on Perez was so ill-timed; it was blatantly obvious that he was going to run out of road being so close in that turbulence. I think Hamilton had a similar issue when he had Verstappen's level of experience and not really thinking big picture. He demanded new tyres whenever his pace ebbed away, which proved to be the wrong call today, as new inters grained too quickly and just didn't provide the advantage that new tyres usually do. I think Verstappen will learn overtime, it was all a bit rash and panic today. One thing was strange, Verstappen spun behind Albon, but it only took Verstappen a lap to catch Albon and pass him. A bit like Stroll, Albon's pace was nowhere towards the end. Stroll's race pace ultimately wasn't good enough. He built such a big gap to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Hamilton, he simply failed to keep up with the changing racetrack. What does Turkey teach us? It wouldn’t be great to have such poor levels of grip every week. However I think lessons can be learnt from the weekend. It looked like a real challenge to drive the cars, the visible driver control was evident with the snaps of oversteer in high speed corners. It looked a bit terrifying; the drivers really had to think what they were doing, from the entry, middle to the exit of the corner. Those who got it wrong were punished; those who had the finesse and feel were rewarded. I sound like broken record, but it’s that sort of visible driver skill and racing that illustrates why F1 cars need drastically less downforce. In the dry it wouldn’t have been quite as dramatic, but fundamentally the drivers shouldn’t be flat through turn eight, corners shouldn’t become mere formalities with tiny lifts. Still to this day, I haven't heard any viewers or spectators demanding that F1 cars must do a certain laptime. I really hope that 2022 delivers, because its about time that F1 delivers a consistently raceable product. Its no good lapping at 1:25 or whatever if the racing sends people to sleep. Verstappen is in his 6th season, he should've learnt by now, he still hasn't, he's still hot headed, the red most still descends, until he reigns in his temper and petulant attitude and looks at the bigger picture, then he will never be a world champion, I don't forsee him changing his approach any time soon, he's had more than long enough to do so! |
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Post by PetrolEd on Nov 16, 2020 9:57:44 GMT
And yet there are still people who think any driver could win the championship if they were given that Mercedes to do it in. Well Bottas has had that car for four years and hasn't even been close. Alternatively Bottas is the current runner up in the championship and ahead of the fastest guy out there. If he was the only driver at Mercedes he'd be winning the championship. Therefore I'd stick with the cars the star and I can only think of someone like Grosjean who wouldn't be able to win in that thing and I'm being very unkind to Grosjean. But yes Hamilton can probably be considered the one of the GOATs |
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Post by PetrolEd on Nov 16, 2020 10:14:43 GMT
I agree, it was surprising that Mercedes left it so late to contemplate pitting Hamilton. If drivers like Stroll, Verstappen and Vettel had started to go faster than Hamilton the latter would have been undercut. It was probably the closest that F1 got to a relatively level playing field in recent years. Vettel and Leclerc both drove brilliantly, that car didn't deserve fourth and fifth. The Mercedes didn't look that great, but staying with those old intermediates worked brilliantly for Hamilton. The other driver in the same car finished a lap down and spun six times. Albon, it was looking good for him. He lost his head. So did Verstappen. Max’s attempted pass on Perez was so ill-timed; it was blatantly obvious that he was going to run out of road being so close in that turbulence. I think Hamilton had a similar issue when he had Verstappen's level of experience and not really thinking big picture. He demanded new tyres whenever his pace ebbed away, which proved to be the wrong call today, as new inters grained too quickly and just didn't provide the advantage that new tyres usually do. I think Verstappen will learn overtime, it was all a bit rash and panic today. One thing was strange, Verstappen spun behind Albon, but it only took Verstappen a lap to catch Albon and pass him. A bit like Stroll, Albon's pace was nowhere towards the end. Stroll's race pace ultimately wasn't good enough. He built such a big gap to the likes of Verstappen, Vettel and Hamilton, he simply failed to keep up with the changing racetrack. What does Turkey teach us? It wouldn’t be great to have such poor levels of grip every week. However I think lessons can be learnt from the weekend. It looked like a real challenge to drive the cars, the visible driver control was evident with the snaps of oversteer in high speed corners. It looked a bit terrifying; the drivers really had to think what they were doing, from the entry, middle to the exit of the corner. Those who got it wrong were punished; those who had the finesse and feel were rewarded. I sound like broken record, but it’s that sort of visible driver skill and racing that illustrates why F1 cars need drastically less downforce. In the dry it wouldn’t have been quite as dramatic, but fundamentally the drivers shouldn’t be flat through turn eight, corners shouldn’t become mere formalities with tiny lifts. Still to this day, I haven't heard any viewers or spectators demanding that F1 cars must do a certain laptime. I really hope that 2022 delivers, because its about time that F1 delivers a consistently raceable product. Its no good lapping at 1:25 or whatever if the racing sends people to sleep. Verstappen is in his 6th season, he should've learnt by now, he still hasn't, he's still hot headed, the red most still descends, until he reigns in his temper and petulant attitude and looks at the bigger picture, then he will never be a world champion, I don't forsee him changing his approach any time soon, he's had more than long enough to do so! What do we want to see a grid full of points takers or win at all costs merchants like Verstappen? To be fair to Verstappen you only take points when you've got a championship on the line. He's going to finish in third in the championship because thats what his car will take him too. Might as well drive the wheels off it and if you bin it so what. Plus quite rightly there should be a difference between driving for Red Bull and an accountancy firm like Mercedes. |
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Post by Eff One on Nov 16, 2020 10:56:18 GMT
Ten laps in I thought we were going to see a Lance Stroll whitewash. What we got was a demonstration of his limitations. You don't put a car on pole in conditions like Saturday's if you can't drive. But he lacks the breadth of ability and racecraft to manage the tyres and adapt to changing conditions. I feel ever so slightly sorry for him, because it's obvious that the team don't want him in the car. I've never heard a race engineer sound less enthusiastic at his charge taking pole - let alone an unlikely maiden pole.
Bottas - ouch. I don't subscribe to the 'Bottas is shit' narrative, he gets a ridiculous amount of abuse for not being as good as Lewis, which is hardly a damning criticism. But yesterday was a horror show courtesy of one mistake - an optimistic lunge on Ocon into turn 6 (think) which damaged his steering. Cue 58 laps spent crabbing around like a shopping trolley. But you just know that with a clear run, he'd have been nowhere near Lewis in those conditions.
Nice to see Vettel on the podium, thoroughly well deserved. And Perez, of course, is a class act.
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Post by PetrolEd on Nov 16, 2020 12:33:42 GMT
Ten laps in I thought we were going to see a Lance Stroll whitewash. What we got was a demonstration of his limitations. You don't put a car on pole in conditions like Saturday's if you can't drive. But he lacks the breadth of ability and racecraft to manage the tyres and adapt to changing conditions. I feel ever so slightly sorry for him, because it's obvious that the team don't want him in the car. I've never heard a race engineer sound less enthusiastic at his charge taking pole - let alone an unlikely maiden pole. Bottas - ouch. I don't subscribe to the 'Bottas is shit' narrative, he gets a ridiculous amount of abuse for not being as good as Lewis, which is hardly a damning criticism. But yesterday was a horror show courtesy of one mistake - an optimistic lunge on Ocon into turn 6 (think) which damaged his steering. Cue 58 laps spent crabbing around like a shopping trolley. But you just know that with a clear run, he'd have been nowhere near Lewis in those conditions. Nice to see Vettel on the podium, thoroughly well deserved. And Perez, of course, is a class act. Was very interesting in how the race came to different drivers at different times. Stroll looked epic but maybe he just burnt through his tyres with his initial pace. Pace it looked like nobody could live with and maybe the likes of Hamilton were conserving tyres but the way they were slidding around maybe not. Perez of course has always been the master of tyre conservation and think all his podiums have come through tyre management over speed so can't blame Stroll he hasn't got such a light touch. Very odd though that the likes of Lando and Leclerc were nowhere until the end of the race when suddenly they found all this pace whilst Stroll was the opposite. Odd that the intermediate was a better tyre run down to near slick then fresh which makes sense on a drying track but seemed to have every team baffled. Bring back Turkey and the ice rink next season. |
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Post by Sav on Nov 18, 2020 23:02:52 GMT
I don’t think we’ll see another Grand Prix weekend like Turkey for at least the next twenty years. The cars could have lapped a lot quicker on a more abrasive track in the wet at Silverstone, Suzuka etc. The inherent lack of grip was deemed unacceptable, and the fact it was wet was sort of irrelevant. It was going to be a tricky race in the dry, because the drivers would have had to try and commit to the fast sweepers with limited confidence. A corner like turn 8 on full tanks would have been interesting.
There needs to be a halfway compromise. Clearly Turkey was a challenge and perhaps unsuitable to the cars. However, it was fantastic to watch the cars move about, the drivers needed a lot of finesse, it wasn’t the case of getting back to the gas even before the middle of the corner. I think Ricciardo had a good point. If more races were like Turkey, there would be no point in developing the cars to the standards seen today. A counter-argument is that if more track surfaces were like Turkey, the teams would simply have to develop their cars with a different philosophy. The cars would have to be softer, and peak downforce wouldn’t be as critical. I really hope the 2022 regulations allow us to see more visible driver control. The current downforce is a drivers dream, but its not a viewers dream.
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Post by PetrolEd on Nov 19, 2020 9:40:46 GMT
You basically need to turn an F1 car into a GP2 car but give them 1200hp, double the braking zone to encourage passing and bobs you uncle. But then isn't that just an Indycar or whatever they call them now.
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Post by Eff One on Nov 19, 2020 13:45:37 GMT
Turns out that Stroll had damage to the underside of his front wing which exacerbated his tyre issues and partly explains his dramatic fall down the order.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2020 15:19:44 GMT
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