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Post by PG on Aug 17, 2020 12:26:59 GMT
There's been more press coverage recently about hydrogen as the future power source for transport. Yes, Tesla are going to release a BEV artic unit, but is seems that there is a more general view that batteries are just too heavy and expensive for realistic fossil fuel replacement in HGVs and clearly a complete non-starter in ships and airplanes. So the need to produce hydrogen for other transport may well lead to reduced prices and better ways to manufacture hydrogen from sources other than natural gas. And make the economics of a hydrogen refuelling infrastructure more affordable. I saw in Autocar today that JLR have also got some grant money from the UK government to work on fuel cells as they've seen that batteries are really too heavy for already heavy vehicles - and as people do love their SUV's that means that hydrogen fuel cells makes sense for them. BMW are also working on a fuel cell X5 according to the article. A tank full of hydrogen plus a fuel cell is lighter than the batteries to give the same range - by some margin it appears. www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/jaguar-land-rover-project-aims-hydrogen-suvs-2030Views? |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 17, 2020 12:32:08 GMT
I've always been of the opinion that BEVs are only a stepping stone to hydrogen powered vehicles and will be a small part of the market in the future. I'm involved in a hydrogen project with Teesside University and it seems to tick all the boxes for future sustainable transport.
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Post by johnc on Aug 17, 2020 12:51:23 GMT
I too think that hydrogen is the sensible solution for sustainable transport and it would allow for relatively pain free refuelling and longer trips in much the same way as petrol and diesel - this coming from the man who has just leased an electric car. However I have leased it because of the uncertainties that surround the future direction of transport.
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Post by Tim on Aug 17, 2020 13:02:49 GMT
I read an article years ago and the cost for putting in a hydrogen plant at every filling station in the US was relatively small, I'm sure it was about $150k per plant.
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Post by PetrolEd on Aug 17, 2020 13:40:32 GMT
I've been bigging up Hydrogen for the last 10 years and will continue to do so. However we need to get on with it. Once people become used to the effortless performance on offer from electric they won't want to go back.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 17, 2020 14:50:06 GMT
I read an article years ago and the cost for putting in a hydrogen plant at every filling station in the US was relatively small, I'm sure it was about $150k per plant. I went to a presentation given by these guys: www.itm-power.com/I was very impressed with their technology and the idea of using surplus renewable energy to create green hydrogen on site from water. They currently have 7 hydrogen stations in operation in the UK. Other areas like Teesside have a surplus of brown hydrogen and it's something they're pushing here. I believe we're getting our first refueling station round the corner from us. |
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Post by johnc on Aug 17, 2020 16:14:29 GMT
I read an article years ago and the cost for putting in a hydrogen plant at every filling station in the US was relatively small, I'm sure it was about $150k per plant. I went to a presentation given by these guys: www.itm-power.com/I was very impressed with their technology and the idea of using surplus renewable energy to create green hydrogen on site from water. They currently have 7 hydrogen stations in operation in the UK. Other areas like Teesside have a surplus of brown hydrogen and it's something they're pushing here. I believe we're getting our first refueling station round the corner from us. I bought some of their shares a couple of years ago. I just wish I had bought more! |
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Post by Tim on Aug 17, 2020 16:25:34 GMT
Interesting company and very interesting share price.
Given the lack of attention to hydrogen power I'm surprised at the share price.
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Post by johnc on Aug 17, 2020 16:33:45 GMT
Interesting company and very interesting share price. Given the lack of attention to hydrogen power I'm surprised at the share price. My shares were up over 400% when I decided to take profit and half my holding but they have risen another 30% since then. I really don't know if it is a case of hoards of people looking for the next best thing and it is buoyed up by hope or if it really is the beginning of the next technological boom. I'd love to have £10K of spare cash that I wouldn't miss to let me have a punt! |
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Post by Big Blue on Aug 17, 2020 16:44:46 GMT
I also think that hydrogen will be the next fuel source as batteries are really not the best solution, although battery technology moves at a decent pace. Batteries' real issue is the amount of low-availability materials involved and how it's obtained as opposed to just weight. However we must also consider the possibility that the next wunderkind inventor comes up with some new fuel source or combination-material fuel but all this will be beyond our driving lives and indeed very likely our actual lifespans.
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Post by alf on Aug 18, 2020 13:44:17 GMT
It's difficult to know if hydrogen has real unresolved challenges or is just waiting for more investment. If its the latter, it could be a good move for the UK to invest heavily and get ahead of the curve with the vehicles and the infrastructure. I suppose the danger is a step change in battery tech, which is always discussed as well - if they suddenly became lighter and faster charging, it could kill off hydrogen - unless the cells still needed minerals that are scarce.
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Post by Tim on Aug 19, 2020 11:58:00 GMT
One of the other things that may limit the spread of batteries is weight.
I've seen an increasing number of times where car pollution has included brake dust and the bits of rubber that come off tyres.
If you've got a 4 door saloon like the Taken weighing nearly 2.5 tonnes compared with, say an M5, of around 2 tonnes then the amount of non-exhaust pollutant will surely be greater in the Porsche.
If you could have zero emissions from hydrogen and the weight was the same as the M5 (I don't know how much the 'engine' and storage in a hydrogen car weigh) then there's an argument against battery power.
Then when you add in the extra pollution caused by batteries when people stop every hour or 2 for an extended coffee break to charge their car there's an even greater reduction.
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Post by johnc on Aug 19, 2020 12:15:17 GMT
The I-Pace hardly needs brakes. If the car is turned up to maximum regeneration it slows down very quickly and effectively with no brakes. It is a very effective fast road braking system because the retardation can be pretty severe if you are pedalling fast on a decent A or B road and I am sure the braking effect is greater than the majority of drivers would apply. It has the added benefit of being silky smooth so quick progress is even easier and flowing. I like it a lot.
EDIT: I should add that when I washed the car on Sunday there was almost no brake dust on the I-Pace's wheels and I can't say the same about the M5!
EDIT 2: I would like to see a race retardation option and I could out brake everyone
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Post by PG on Aug 19, 2020 12:22:42 GMT
It does seem that the weight advantage of a fuel cell and hydrogen v current batteries is huge. From the article -
The three hydrogen tanks in today’s Mirai weigh 87kg and offer a range of 312 miles from 5kg of gas. In stark contrast, the battery-electric Tesla Model S Long Range offers a best-conditions range of 320 miles from a 95kWh battery that weighs around 540kg.
The fuel cell weight and the fuel cell itself is about 50-80kg plus a small battery pack for regen, starting etc (say 50kg for a 10kWh battery). So tops that is fuel cell system, say 225kg v batteries of 500+kg.
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Post by Martin on Aug 19, 2020 12:23:38 GMT
No brake dust is an benefit of electric motoring that I hadn’t considered, but it’s a good point.
What do BMWs put in their brake pads that generate so much dust? It was the same with all of mine and despite weighing a lot more and using the brakes more often (as opposed to engine braking by changing manually), this car generates an awful lot less. It’s a bit early to say for sure, but the wheels look at least half as dirty as I’d expect and I haven’t put any type of protection on them.
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Post by johnc on Aug 19, 2020 12:38:22 GMT
You can see the brake dust on the wheels on the M5 after about 10 miles of driving which means that when I get to the end of the week the wheels are often the dirtiest part of the car by a long shot. I put a ceramic coating on the wheels before they went on in the Spring so cleaning is relatively easy but I would certainly prefer it if I could leave it a week longer before having to clean them again.
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Post by Martin on Aug 19, 2020 12:58:05 GMT
You can see the brake dust on the wheels on the M5 after about 10 miles of driving which means that when I get to the end of the week the wheels are often the dirtiest part of the car by a long shot. I put a ceramic coating on the wheels before they went on in the Spring so cleaning is relatively easy but I would certainly prefer it if I could leave it a week longer before having to clean them again. The 750 was the same but they had a coat of FK1000P applied each winter/summer change, it didn’t make any difference to how long they stayed clean but did help with the cleaning for a couple of months. I won’t need separate winters now, so will probably skip the polishing as they’ll easily go at least 2 weeks before needing to be cleaned. |
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Post by Alex on Aug 20, 2020 18:32:29 GMT
I've been bigging up Hydrogen for the last 10 years and will continue to do so. However we need to get on with it. Once people become used to the effortless performance on offer from electric they won't want to go back. Fuel cells produce electricity to drive motors so surely they will still have effortless instant torque. I think it’s the way to go but the argument is all about infrastructure but surely they can just put big tanks of hydrogen in the ground below forecourts in the space where the petrol tanks are now. It could also be on an underground pipeline like natural gas is so you don’t need a load of tanker trucks on the roads. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 20, 2020 21:15:51 GMT
I've been bigging up Hydrogen for the last 10 years and will continue to do so. However we need to get on with it. Once people become used to the effortless performance on offer from electric they won't want to go back. Fuel cells produce electricity to drive motors so surely they will still have effortless instant torque. I think it’s the way to go but the argument is all about infrastructure but surely they can just put big tanks of hydrogen in the ground below forecourts in the space where the petrol tanks are now. It could also be on an underground pipeline like natural gas is so you don’t need a load of tanker trucks on the roads. You don’t need to transport the hydrogen, you generate it on site from water. |
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Post by Big Blue on Aug 21, 2020 9:56:51 GMT
You don’t need to transport the hydrogen, you generate it on site from water. Yep. So to make hydrogen for cars would the most efficient solution be electrolysis powered by solar power to split the gases? At some stage there could be a section for electrolysis in the fuel tank space and the roof would be hyper-efficient PV cell bank. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 21, 2020 10:16:08 GMT
You don’t need to transport the hydrogen, you generate it on site from water. Yep. So to make hydrogen for cars would the most efficient solution be electrolysis powered by solar power to split the gases? At some stage there could be a section for electrolysis in the fuel tank space and the roof would be hyper-efficient PV cell bank. That's the way it was explained to me. The ultimate aim was for surplus renewable energy eg. wind turbines still turning and generating a night when there's less demand to create the hydrogen on site from water. The water is turned to steam that is then forced through a membrane separating the "fast" gases such as hydrogen, from "slower" gases like methane. The kit is all supplied in a container and all the filling station has to do is hook up AC power and a water supply. The question is can enough hydrogen be generated instantaneously when you pull up and fill your car or will there have to be a continuous generation with storage to allow for peak demand? |
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Post by PG on Aug 21, 2020 10:31:49 GMT
You don’t need to transport the hydrogen, you generate it on site from water. Yep. So to make hydrogen for cars would the most efficient solution be electrolysis powered by solar power to split the gases? At some stage there could be a section for electrolysis in the fuel tank space and the roof would be hyper-efficient PV cell bank. A current hydrogen on site system is about the size of a shipping container + the electricity source needed. So some rather serious technical advances and miniaturisation needed. But how cool would that be? Fill up your water tank, leave your car parked for a few hours and you've made enough fuel to go about your day. |
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 21, 2020 10:38:52 GMT
Yep. So to make hydrogen for cars would the most efficient solution be electrolysis powered by solar power to split the gases? At some stage there could be a section for electrolysis in the fuel tank space and the roof would be hyper-efficient PV cell bank. A current hydrogen on site system is about the size of a shipping container + the electricity source needed. So some rather serious technical advances and miniaturisation needed. But how cool would that be? Fill up your water tank, leave your car parked for a few hours and you've made enough fuel to go about your day. Their smallest ISO containerised system produces a maximum of 270kg every 24 hours, which is about enough to fill 50+ cars. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2020 11:11:43 GMT
There would however, (Devils advocate mode on) need to be a huge increase in efficiency from the water companies. The current loss rate could not be sustained if water were used for fuel as well as all the other purposes water is used for.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Aug 21, 2020 12:10:44 GMT
No shortage of water here, we've got Kielder Reservoir (44 billion gallons), so we'll be OK. Obviously the South will become a desert, inhabited by tribes of walking nomads.
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Post by chipbutty on Aug 21, 2020 13:25:13 GMT
Automotive fuel cell applications (to drive an electric motor) are currently limited by the fact that fuel cells cannot produce electricity fast enough to feed powerful motors on demand in heavy vehicles. This is one of the reasons why the available fuel cell EVs are smaller and have puny little motors.
A battery/capacitor arrangement would be needed, but the size of the " battery buffer " required would make the fuel cell bit almost pointless (currently).
Will be interesting to see what develops.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2020 13:05:32 GMT
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Post by michael on Sept 16, 2020 19:40:53 GMT
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Post by cbeaks1 on Sept 16, 2020 20:03:51 GMT
Not the car’s fault if the owner doesn’t charge it.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 16, 2020 20:53:52 GMT
Not the car’s fault if the owner doesn’t charge it. That was precisely my reaction. The amount of journeys I do that require more than the 35miles the proposed incoming 530e Touring is capable of on pure electric are maybe one a month or less. |
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