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DTM.
Apr 28, 2020 18:01:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2020 18:01:54 GMT
So, Audi has pulled the plug and with Aston also out and Merc having left at the end of 2018, they are in the same boat as the Le mans class with only one manufacturer present. Not sure it is worth having and BMW cannot possible gain anything from being the sole works team.
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DTM.
Apr 29, 2020 10:06:27 GMT
Post by PetrolEd on Apr 29, 2020 10:06:27 GMT
Very sad to hear. Like all series once they become important commercially the costs sky rocket and the cars get out of control and then a manufacturer questions their participation. At least in the BTCC you can kind of compare your 320d to a touring car but the DTM are just monsters that I guess your buyer of a C-Class can't connect with. Still at least theres now Formula E for all the washed up F1 drivers to go to now.
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DTM.
Apr 29, 2020 15:12:20 GMT
Post by Big Blue on Apr 29, 2020 15:12:20 GMT
Yeah DTM as a silhouette class has been shite when trying to push it as "road cars going racing". Here's a DTM E30 vs a DTM F31: One looks like the car you go shopping in. One is a revolting transformer-look-a-like
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DTM.
Apr 30, 2020 9:26:26 GMT
Post by scouse on Apr 30, 2020 9:26:26 GMT
Yup. Even the maddest of the mad homologated ones still looked like a road car:
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DTM.
Apr 30, 2020 11:10:22 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2020 11:10:22 GMT
Memory tells me that is a 190E 2.3 16 but I might be wrong there.
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Post by Tim on Apr 30, 2020 11:36:58 GMT
It's an Evolution II which had a 2.5 litre version of the engine.
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DTM.
Apr 30, 2020 12:22:47 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2020 12:22:47 GMT
Thanks.
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DTM.
May 1, 2020 23:46:06 GMT
Post by Sav on May 1, 2020 23:46:06 GMT
DTM holds a lot of fond memories for me. I will never forget Jean Alesi starring in the wet at the Nurburgring, Hakkinen overtaking around the outside of Paddock Hill bend, the spine-tingling noise of the old V8’s, and Paul Di Resta starring in a two year old car in an era when two year cars were at the back of the field.
Really, the problems have already been mentioned. DTM quietly liked the way the series was referenced; F1 cars but with roofs. But nobody wanted F1 cars with roofs. What people wanted was nose-to-tail action with some argy bargy, typical touring car entertainment. When Opel left DTM back in 2005, that should have been the catalyst for moving back to production bodies. But DTM thought that its proposition of roofed F1 cars was so strong, they didn’t see any need to change. It’s for that reason they introduced DRS, F1 has it….
From 2006 onwards, Audi and Mercedes had the experienced teams, drivers and well developed chassis’. I think there probably was interest from a few manufacturers, but to make that sort of commitment was going to be costly, potentially for no return. Toyota bought an old Opel Vectra DTM and stripped it apart, as the Japanese makers do. I think they got their answer.
For me, the most visible aspect is braking distances. With DTM cars, the braking zone is absurdly short. You watch when the brake lights get illuminated into a hairpin like Druids; you then understand why passing is so difficult. Touring cars shouldn’t need DRS, push to pass or other gimmicks. Even a slight bit of contact in DTM results in retirement. It’s a bit like a chocolate teapot. In comparison, a V8 Supercar is a lot heavier and uses steel brakes. In combination with heel and toe, braking is an art form in those cars. Even if a Supercars race gets a bit strung out, watching the driver brake and wrestle a 1500kg car is very impressive. The braking in DTM must require immense skill too, but with it being so influenced by aerodynamics, it’s not as visible. Undoubtedly a DTM car would leave a V8 Supercar for dust, but the latter looks just as captivating on TV because it moves about a lot more, which means the visible driver input is greater, and touring car racing should be about entertainment, not ultimate speed.
I think another flaw was the move to coupes. Not only are production coupe sales more limiting, but the move to coupes then questioned what DTM was. Principally due to the various GT championships across Germany and Europe, with much fuller grids, lower costs and plentiful brand representation. GT3 isn’t perfect. So what DTM should have become was GT3 but a bit rawer. So instead of 500 hp, 600 hp would have been desirable with no ABS, no traction control and less downforce. A lot of the GT3 manufacturers would have been interested, because development costs would have been less compared to making a DTM car from scratch. The DTM platform is still very strong, so the chance of seeing Audi, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes etc on a DTM grid would have been terrific.
DTM spent too long clinging onto the hope that Class One was going to work as well. It was doomed to start with. Neither DTM nor Super GT showed much commitment, and it took five years for cars from both series to finally participate in the same race. It was great to see a Lexus, Honda and Nissan in DTM, but it clearly wasn’t going to lead further participation. They clung onto the idea of a Japanese marque joining, but it was more of a dream rather than any concrete reality. I do worry about the wider impact on motorsport. DTM was a strong organisation, and it had a strong support race package. I think in the absolute short term, DTM should become a GT3 series. It would mean again the series would have an identity crisis, but it would be better to race rather than go into demise.
It is a shame, because the revised DTM car for 2019 was encouraging. Power increased by 130 hp, so the cars became more traction-limited and wet races looked quite terrifying. Plus, the four pots sounded genuinely quite decent. But it was too late.
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DTM.
May 5, 2020 9:58:47 GMT
Post by Tim on May 5, 2020 9:58:47 GMT
I haven't watched the Aussie V8s for a few years, ;ast time I did it was a pleasant surprise to see other marques involved. It was always a lot more exciting to watch than other tin-top series, I'd say it was on a par with the BTCC from the Cleland/Soper/Rose era.
DTM clearly failed to learn the lesson from the Procar series. The only thing I remember that came from that was a lovely Alfa 164 hiding a 3 litre V10. The costs of that series sunk it before it got beyond the early stages.
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May 11, 2020 10:20:33 GMT
Post by PetrolEd on May 11, 2020 10:20:33 GMT
I guess you also have the hugely popular VLN series in Germany that you can compete in with many classes and many different budgets. Plus its at the ring which just makes it better then anything else.
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DTM.
May 11, 2020 10:39:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2020 10:39:50 GMT
I seem to recall Audi going to great lengths to develop a new car recently when DTM chged to 2 litre engines to save costs and now they've done a bunk anyway. What a waste of time!
It is a rather ridiculous series. The RS5 DTM is nothing like the road car in the slightest.
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DTM.
May 13, 2020 21:52:46 GMT
Post by Sav on May 13, 2020 21:52:46 GMT
The DTM’s struggles reminded me of the defunct Italian Superstars Series. It consisted of V8 saloons and coupes of a peculiar mix; E60 550i, RS5, M3 E90, Camaro, C63, Lexus ISF, Jaguar XFR and others. The cars were production-based, the racing was close and it didn’t need DRS or anything like that because the aerodynamics was fairly limited. The intriguing aspect is that you had such brand and model variety with no direct factory involvement.
That really should have been the template of DTM. DTM died in the mid-90’s because costs got out of control with ever-faster cars, they didn’t learn. The issue with the Superstars Series is how poorly it was promoted. If you knew a race was happening, you were doing something right. DTM is much better promoted and organised, but the product is flawed. The concept of manufacturers coming in with big budgets and factory teams are over. Because DTM had such few manufacturers, they controlled the shots. If they got upset, they would leave. It’s happened with LMP prototypes for years, now DTM is experiencing the same thing.
Audi were the biggest supporters of the four-cylinder engine replacing the old V8, Simon is right, but now they have decided to leave. It wasn’t Audi’s fault, or Mercedes’ fault. The issue stems from the fact that too few manufacturers were willing to compete, and because of that, they held all the cards. I think the people in DTM find it hard to accept something that appears to be simpler, with a lower level of technology. Say if a privateer wants to enter F1 today, whats the biggest barrier, excluding cost? Powertrain supply. If you can't get cosy with one of the big car manufacturers, you can forget it. The need for independent engine suppliers becomes acute, but that can't happen with todays level of technology. Its an amazing engine that won't be used in any road car, apart from the Mercedes Project One.
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