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Post by chipbutty on Dec 28, 2018 13:32:48 GMT
This was our F-Pace, a bog basic 20d R Sport with a teeny 4 pot diesel, manual seats and no reversing camera  list was £40k, sold to a Jag dealer at 12 months and 5400 miles for £33,500 This was my XF 3.0 diesel S, £50k basic, it had almost £7ks worth of options (the paint alone was 1800 quid) and you can buy it from a Retailer at 12 months old and 5200 miles for £29,500  You can see similar with BMW and Mercedes   Crazy times.... |
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Post by johnc on Dec 28, 2018 13:46:54 GMT
Larger cars and in particular the diesels have really taken a hammering. Big petrols aren't far behind with dealers desperate for sales. I blame the Government for the fear they put into the market over diesels. Added to that there is the uncertainty over Brexit and how that might impact on prices or the economy in general: it's no wonder that people are keeping their hands in their pockets.
EDIT: I should add that an M5 I have looked at was just under £100K new, with next to no miles and 9 months later, the dealer is prepared to discuss an offer around £70K and the estimated residual after 4 years is £26,500! That is depreciation of a kind I never want to experience.
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 28, 2018 14:15:39 GMT
I wish I could find me a decently=paid job where I could afford to buy/run such expensive cars !
Apart from one long-deceased uncle (who was a bit of a black sheep in the family anyway) no-one in mum's or dad's sides of my family apart from me has any interest in cars.
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Post by Big Blue on Dec 28, 2018 14:19:37 GMT
That’s because you can get a new m5 with a £4.5k brand contribution and £4.5k down at 3.9% and whatever you can argue off list.
The current 4series deals are £11k deposit from dealer and brand contributions: basically residuals are fucked once you’re at this starting point.
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Post by grampa on Dec 28, 2018 14:41:54 GMT
I think the problem with big saloons is either you (or rather your employer) can afford to buy them new or you wait a few years until you can get a really nice once for under £10k - not hard to find these days, and with the way they barely alter the looks from model to model it just increases the desirability of a well looked after older much cheaper one.
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Post by Martin on Dec 28, 2018 14:51:09 GMT
It’s crazy that someone would pay more for the F Pace than the XF, my internal value has the XF at about double! It’s a positive for those of us who prefer a large saloon / estate and all the benefits that go with that choice compared to an SUV.
As BB has posted, big discounts plus low interest PCP deals means 1st year depreciation in particular can be horrendous.
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 28, 2018 15:04:56 GMT
It’s crazy that someone would pay more for the F Pace than the XF, my internal value has the XF at about double! The market (or maybe it's people's desires) is crazy. SUV's are the current "must-have", look at Ford seriously thinking of totally halting production of traditional saloons in the USA to focus (pun intended) on SUVs and pick-ups. The type of vehicle I'd like has all-but disappeared from the market altogether, and cars in general have less luggage space for their length than in the past, probably due to crash laws making noses longer. I think the only "proper" estate car we are now left with in the UK (vertical, or near-vertical tailgate) is the Passat. Where is the modern equivalent of the estate versions of the Carlton, Granada etc? |
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Post by chipbutty on Dec 28, 2018 17:27:27 GMT
The focus of the post is not the economics per se (supply and demand, etc), but the fact that things have got so screwy that the latest mid size exec awesomeness is obviously missing the mark for many.
Great time to be a saloonist looking for vfm
Chris, didn’t you buy a new Kuga and new Fiesta at roughly the same time ? That’s at least £30ks worth in either cash or financing... why didn’t you buy a lightly used six cylinder saloon
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Dec 28, 2018 17:29:26 GMT
It’s crazy that someone would pay more for the F Pace than the XF, my internal value has the XF at about double! here is the modern equivalent of the estate versions of the Carlton, Granada etc? Mondeo estate. Obviously a bit bigger, but close enough. I have the XF about right for price and the F Pace about 7k over. |
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Post by ChrisM on Dec 28, 2018 20:55:12 GMT
Chris, didn’t you buy a new Kuga and new Fiesta at roughly the same time ? That’s at least £30ks worth in either cash or financing... why didn’t you buy a lightly used six cylinder saloon A year apart, both on PCP although the Fiesta is now mine (owned outright)....... I wish I could have got a Mustang instead for a couple of years on PCP ! However my plans usually don't work out. The plan with the Fiesta was, at the end of the PCP, for younger daughter to have it to replace her old 05 Fiesta, but she decided to use her inheritance to buy the used A1 instead. I may then have reverted to one car, and was looking at buying the C-Max at the end of its PCP in 2017, however I hadn't really bonded with it (it was OK as transport) and the dealer kept making ever-sweeter offers on finance for a Kuga from their stock, to the point that I eventually bit. Almost all of my inheritance has now gone due to supporting my daughters and wife (and some necessary repairs to our house, and a few cameras and lenses....), plus the legal bills I've had from "The case of the corpse that wouldn't die" (which still has to reach its conclusion - I'm in the High Court on Valentine's Day 2019 and that may not be the end of it) and the collapsed garden wall dispute with the neighbours at mum's (but I have enough aside to buy the Kuga at the end of its PCP in 2020. There are still no vehicles on the market that strongly appeal to me that I could afford, and as age takes its toll I prefer the higher driving position of an SUV (or MPV, but they have all but died out). One day I may just rent a V8 Mustang for the hell of it, and to enjoy a bent 8 before our politicians outlaw them. I should never even have had the C-Max, my dad had promised me the V70 for 2014 but then my parents had issues with the building of their new house and he died before everything was resolved, then mum didn't want to part with the car as it held so many memories for her (they bought it new in 2004). |
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 1, 2019 11:42:24 GMT
It seems almost nobody buys ”normal” cars for cash anymore. So until car dealers stop insisting on interest rates of circa 10% for PCP or HP on approved used stock, this will always be the case.
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Post by johnc on Jan 4, 2019 15:08:20 GMT
It seems almost nobody buys ”normal” cars for cash anymore. So until car dealers stop insisting on interest rates of circa 10% for PCP or HP on approved used stock, this will always be the case. I spoke to one BMW dealer and was told that they had done a deal with BMW which meant that the lowest apr they could offer was 8.9% on used stock. I presume it must be some kind of deal relating to the amount of commission the dealer receives or alternatively some kind of offset on the interest they pay on their consignment stock loans. At that rate though I am looking elsewhere and if everyone gets to that level I won't be buying anything remotely expensive. |
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 4, 2019 15:59:12 GMT
It seems almost nobody buys ”normal” cars for cash anymore. So until car dealers stop insisting on interest rates of circa 10% for PCP or HP on approved used stock, this will always be the case. I spoke to one BMW dealer and was told that they had done a deal with BMW which meant that the lowest apr they could offer was 8.9% on used stock. I presume it must be some kind of deal relating to the amount of commission the dealer receives or alternatively some kind of offset on the interest they pay on their consignment stock loans. At that rate though I am looking elsewhere and if everyone gets to that level I won't be buying anything remotely expensive. I expect it is precisely in order to push people into PCP on new vehicles. |
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Post by johnc on Jan 4, 2019 17:17:46 GMT
I spoke to a used car dealer just before Christmas and he was feeling quite positive about his market. He mainly sells in the £5K - £25K range and over the past 5 years or so has suffered from the PCP deals offering people new cars at £199/mth etc. However the prices have increased quite a bit, the deposits needed are getting larger and he is finding demand for used cars from customers who no longer want to find £5K every 2 or 3 years plus £300 a mth and be left with nothing at the end of it apart from the need to find another £5K.
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Post by PetrolEd on Jan 5, 2019 0:07:09 GMT
I spoke to one BMW dealer and was told that they had done a deal with BMW which meant that the lowest apr they could offer was 8.9% on used stock. I presume it must be some kind of deal relating to the amount of commission the dealer receives or alternatively some kind of offset on the interest they pay on their consignment stock loans. At that rate though I am looking elsewhere and if everyone gets to that level I won't be buying anything remotely expensive. I expect it is precisely in order to push people into PCP on new vehicles. Dealers get advance commission from their projections that are provided to the funder. This is from the manufacturer or a third party like Santander or hitachi and is used to motivate the dealer into using their finance rather than someone else. Advance comms may seem daft but There’s the obvious benefit to the lender. I got 5.9% from Porsche on the GT4 which I was happy with but there are plenty of independent options out there. |
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Post by johnc on Jan 5, 2019 11:26:24 GMT
I got 5.9% from Porsche on the GT4 which I was happy with but there are plenty of independent options out there. Lombard are between 4.41% and 4.91% on an M5 depending on whether there is a balloon payment. I have the feeling that might be quite cheap money looking back in a year's time! |
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Post by Tim on Jan 7, 2019 14:16:38 GMT
It's not just the exec cars that are suffering - we got offered £9k as a trade-in for the Micra against a 66 plate Fiesta ST. That's 50% of the original list price 3 months ago.
It might've been slightly better if the Micra was a petrol version.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 7, 2019 14:57:35 GMT
It's not just the exec cars that are suffering - we got offered £9k as a trade-in for the Micra against a 66 plate Fiesta ST. That's 50% of the original list price 3 months ago. It might've been slightly better if the Micra was a petrol version. 50% depreciation in 3 months!?
That said, trade-in prices take the piss big-time.
I think I was offered £13k trade-in (36% of list, 40% of discounted price) for the M135i at 4 yrs old with 30k miles. I got a full £3k more for it (net) selling it on commission through an independent specialist. The main dealer would have stickered it at £20k.
When my wife's 500 was 3yrs old and her PCP was ending, the Fiat dealer tried very hard to persuade her to change it for a new one, but offering £3.5k trade-in (27% of list, 32% of discounted price) for a 3yr old car with 12k miles on the clock that they themselves described as immaculate (and would likely have stickered at over £7k) was not the right way to go about persuading us to buy another one. So we kept the car and, more than two years later, I'm pretty sure I could still sell it tomorrow privately for at least £5k.
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Post by Tim on Jan 7, 2019 15:20:10 GMT
It's not just the exec cars that are suffering - we got offered £9k as a trade-in for the Micra against a 66 plate Fiesta ST. That's 50% of the original list price 3 months ago. It might've been slightly better if the Micra was a petrol version. 50% depreciation in 3 months!?
That said, trade-in prices take the piss big-time.
I think I was offered £13k trade-in (36% of list, 40% of discounted price) for the M135i at 4 yrs old with 30k miles. I got a full £3k more for it (net) selling it on commission through an independent specialist. The main dealer would have stickered it at £20k.
When my wife's 500 was 3yrs old and her PCP was ending, the Fiat dealer tried very hard to persuade her to change it for a new one, but offering £3.5k trade-in (27% of list, 32% of discounted price) for a 3yr old car with 12k miles on the clock that they themselves described as immaculate (and would likely have stickered at over £7k) was not the right way to go about persuading us to buy another one. So we kept the car and, more than two years later, I'm pretty sure I could still sell it tomorrow privately for at least £5k.
They partly blamed the market for diesels. I guess we'll just have to keep it for longer and enjoy the 70mpg.
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Post by ChrisM on Jan 7, 2019 20:33:13 GMT
^
What sort of discount were you being offered on the Fiesta?
It's all about price to change, but if they were offering low trade-in and little discount then they deserve not to get your (or anyone else's) business
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Post by Martin on Jan 7, 2019 20:52:39 GMT
50% depreciation in 3 months!?
That said, trade-in prices take the piss big-time.
I think I was offered £13k trade-in (36% of list, 40% of discounted price) for the M135i at 4 yrs old with 30k miles. I got a full £3k more for it (net) selling it on commission through an independent specialist. The main dealer would have stickered it at £20k.
When my wife's 500 was 3yrs old and her PCP was ending, the Fiat dealer tried very hard to persuade her to change it for a new one, but offering £3.5k trade-in (27% of list, 32% of discounted price) for a 3yr old car with 12k miles on the clock that they themselves described as immaculate (and would likely have stickered at over £7k) was not the right way to go about persuading us to buy another one. So we kept the car and, more than two years later, I'm pretty sure I could still sell it tomorrow privately for at least £5k.
They partly blamed the market for diesels. I guess we'll just have to keep it for longer and enjoy the 70mpg.
Not a good buy then if you’re seriously thinking about changing after such a short time? |
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Post by Eff One on Jan 8, 2019 10:34:36 GMT
The local Ford dealer bought my Fiesta ST for £9k cash at 3.5 years old, 24k miles - just under 50% of its original list price, which I thought was very reasonable. They stickered it at an equally reasonable £11k.
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Post by michael on Jan 8, 2019 10:36:50 GMT
The dealer group that traded my car in early September still has it up for sale at £20k. I think that be a touch ambitious.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 8, 2019 10:42:59 GMT
The dealer group that traded my car in early September still has it up for sale at £20k. I think that be a touch ambitious. What did they give you for it? |
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Post by michael on Jan 8, 2019 10:44:30 GMT
£17k which I thought was generous given it was a mess. WBAC offer (only through the website) was high £15k then they sent a new offer at just over £16k.
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 8, 2019 10:52:11 GMT
The local Ford dealer bought my Fiesta ST for £9k cash at 3.5 years old, 24k miles - just under 50% of its original list price, which I thought was very reasonable. They stickered it at an equally reasonable £11k. The only time I've had a decent part-ex offer was from Walton Audi when I bought my S3 and that was because the salesman admitted to me that they already had a buyer lined up for my A3 (having been contacted the previous day by an existing customer who was looking for one exactly like it). I admired his candour even if I remember thinking it was a bad negotiating tactic! |
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Post by Tim on Jan 8, 2019 11:14:24 GMT
They partly blamed the market for diesels. I guess we'll just have to keep it for longer and enjoy the 70mpg.
Not a good buy then if you’re seriously thinking about changing after such a short time?
It was more a speculative inquiry than a serious one although if they'd made a decent offer we would've considered it. One concern was the seats in the Fiesta as they were quite deep and angled which was ok for me but I suspect Mrs Tim wouldnt've been comfortable.
I'm glad we didn't pay anywhere near list price for the Micra though. We'll just go back to Plan A for cars.......
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Post by Alex on Jan 8, 2019 12:52:02 GMT
£17k which I thought was generous given it was a mess. WBAC offer (only through the website) was high £15k then they sent a new offer at just over £16k. £18k is the least it owes them then. |
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Post by racingteatray on Jan 8, 2019 23:27:56 GMT
£17k which I thought was generous given it was a mess. WBAC offer (only through the website) was high £15k then they sent a new offer at just over £16k. Just to annoy myself, I checked what We Steal Any Car was offering for the BMW and the Fiat and in both cases it was way below even the part-ex price. On the BMW it was something like £11.5k and the Fiat was less than £3k. I think WBAC should be treated with the same scorn as Wonga personally. |
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Post by johnc on Jan 9, 2019 7:57:59 GMT
£17k which I thought was generous given it was a mess. WBAC offer (only through the website) was high £15k then they sent a new offer at just over £16k. Just to annoy myself, I checked what We Steal Any Car was offering for the BMW and the Fiat and in both cases it was way below even the part-ex price. On the BMW it was something like £11.5k and the Fiat was less than £3k. I think WBAC should be treated with the same scorn as Wonga personally. I regularly use WBAC for a variety of things and their prices move about dramatically at times. Currently they will give me £18,803 for my car which is about what the dealers are offering as a trade in although one did suggest that he would only be able to offer c£17,500. Mercedes were prepared to give me £19,500 against a discounted E53 coupe (list with extras £71,050 discounted to £62,443). However if I put the M5 in they are only offering £60,200 and the dealer is prepared to talk around £70K whereas Parkers has the M5 with a dealer price of £73K and a trade in value of £68K. There seems to be quite a bit of instability at the moment. |
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