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Post by PG on Oct 28, 2017 16:42:13 GMT
I'm really not sure how this is all going to play out. At the end of the day, if people (in Catalonia) will not agree to be governed by direct rule from Madrid, then apart from arresting a lot of people and sending in the tanks, what can Madrid do? And surely they are not stupid enough to do that? It would have been far better to give them a referendum and campaign hard to keep Catalonia in Spain (a la Scottish referendum), but it seems that Spanish pride (arrogance) is very strong. On the other hand, how the heck Catalonia can be a separate country with no currency, borders, security, etc etc rather defines hope over reality. It is a mess.
All this of course goes back to the Treaty of Utrecht and the aftermath from it. From Wikipedia - "under Article X of the treaty Spain ceded Gibraltar and Menorca to Great Britain and agreed to give to the British the Asiento, a monopoly on the oceanic slave trade to the Spanish colonies in America. Great Britain imposed to Spain, under Article XIII, the preservation of the historical rights of Catalonia (given the Catalan support to the Habsburg cause, as well as to British and Dutch military) which were however abolished by the Spanish Bourbon King, one year later when Barcelona was finally occupied by the Franco-Spanish troops, under the Nueva Planta decrees."
So the new Spanish king went back on the Treaty of Utrecht and imposed Castilian rule over Catalonia. Rather like they have wanted to do over Gibraltar ever since as well.
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Post by Alex on Oct 29, 2017 6:29:04 GMT
A lot of commentators are comparing Catalonia to Caledonia (see what I did there!), and trying to give us analogies such as imagining Nicola Sturgeon declared independence etc etc. But I can't help feeling this is completely different and the ill feeling amongst pro independence members of the Catalan population towards the Spanish government could lead to all out civil war. The Spanish government's decision to dissolve their parliament can only have fanned the flames and I can imagine that unofficial parliamentary parties will spring up or we'll see paramilitary groups wreaking havoc like we did in N.Ireland during The Troubles. It's certainly worrying.
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Catalonia
Oct 29, 2017 8:24:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by Big Blue on Oct 29, 2017 8:24:45 GMT
Spain had to dissolve their parliament because if the Catalan parliament started withholding monies from Madrid an raising local taxes the Spanish economy would be fucked because Catalonia had taken a unilateral decision. This is different to Scotland where the economy of both the UK and Scotland are geared towards Scottish self management with funding from Westminster and tax raising powers across Scotland and the UK as a whole.
The independence vote in Scotland was approved by both sides of the border so if “yes” had won there would have been a planned transition. As Madrid is utterly opposed to separation no such transition would occur in Spain and there would be chaos.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 9:29:32 GMT
Hopefully, not another Basque situation although any resolution in Catalonia would also affect that part of Spain.
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Post by racingteatray on Oct 30, 2017 11:12:34 GMT
Irrespective of the legal rights and wrongs, and it would seem that (a) Spain has the law entirely on its side and (b) as is frequently the case in such circumstances, a vocal minority is seeking to impose its will on a silent majority, the overwhelming impression it leaves is just how extremely badly Madrid has handled it.
Two examples that spring instantly to mind:
I remember watching an interview with the Spanish foreign minister, Alfonso Dastis, where he affirmed that he thought the use of force by the Spanish police against voters had been appropriate and proportionate. Coming straight on top of images of women being dragged out of polling stations by their hair, it was jaw-droppingly tin-eared and arrogant.
And then there was the Spanish king, who instead of calling for calm and restraint, and appealing to unity and historical ties, chose to berate the Catalan separatists for their actions. Either he was very ill-advised or he is also as arrogant and out-of-touch as his foreign minister.
The Catalan separatists do a good job of trying to paint themselves as the heroic Rebel Alliance fighting against the Evil Empire. Obi Wan Puigdemont vs Darth Rajoy. Which pricks the sympathy of global audiences primed to favour the underdog. The astonishing thing is how Madrid seems so far incapable of finding a subtle and sophisticated way of defanging that, instead always favouring the clanking fist approach.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 30, 2017 11:44:45 GMT
The sensible thing would be for Madrid to have agreed to a referendum as per Scotland, all the indicators were that a Remain vote would have won the day - albeit not by much, but we are where we are. Let the dust settle and hold new regional elections in a few weeks time and see what the make up of the assembly is after that, with a view to proper legal referendum within a couple of years.
TBF the Catalans have long been the underdog against oppression from Madrid and I can understand their anger and a part of me wishes them every success.
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Post by racingteatray on Oct 30, 2017 11:55:25 GMT
....a part of me wishes them every success. I do know what you mean
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Post by PG on Oct 30, 2017 14:19:32 GMT
....a part of me wishes them every success. I do know what you mean This is pretty much where I am. Catalonian resentment (by the separatists) of Madrid's Castillian power goes back 400 years. Even farther than the Scottish separatists' resentment of all this English. But at least the English have not suppressed Scotland by force for quite a long time. Whereas Franco has only been dead 40 years and he suppressed the Spanish regions hard during his time, starting for Catalonia with his victory at the Battle of Ebro in 1938, where he took control of the region by force. So for many in Catalonia, the actions of the Madrid government and the establishment (supreme court and royal family) are just like Franco in new clothes. As Racing said, the actions of the Spanish king defied logic.
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Post by Bob Sacamano v2.0 on Oct 30, 2017 14:28:26 GMT
Resentment of Madrid is ingrained deeply in Catelonia. If you go to the Barcelona FC stadium and do the tour there is a whole section in the trophy room about former Barcelona FC President Josep Sunyolwho who, in the early days of the Civil War, was arrested and murdered by Franco's troops. That leads onto another factor - the Spanish Premier League has said that any teams in a breakaway Catalonia would not be able to play in the Spanish League, leaving Barcelona without a domestic competition. Barca in the English Premier League anyone?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2017 14:34:23 GMT
Resentment of Madrid is ingrained deeply in Catelonia. If you go to the Barcelona FC stadium and do the tour there is a whole section in the trophy room about former Barcelona FC President Josep Sunyolwho who, in the early days of the Civil War, was arrested and murdered by Franco's troops. That leads onto another factor - the Spanish Premier League has said that any teams in a breakaway Catalonia would not be able to play in the Spanish League, leaving Barcelona without a domestic competition. Barca in the English Premier League anyone? Closer to the French league with easier travel.
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Post by johnc on Oct 30, 2017 14:45:18 GMT
Serious mistakes on both sides of this issue I think.
Creating a separate nation comes with so many other associated problems and costs, any independence would never be as rosy as the Catalans believe. A Scottish type referendum is probably the only way to get a definitive answer from the people of Catalonia but will the losers respect and accept the result?
There is still an underlying tension in Scotland: a recent facebook post I saw had people stating that anyone in Scotland who considered themselves British was no longer Scottish and could f*** off and lots of similarly phrased and poisonous comments. Once these fires have been stoked it will take a long time and a lot of diplomacy for things to return to normal.
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Post by Tim on Oct 31, 2017 10:25:08 GMT
There is still an underlying tension in Scotland: a recent facebook post I saw had people stating that anyone in Scotland who considered themselves British was no longer Scottish and could f*** off and lots of similarly phrased and poisonous comments. Once these fires have been stoked it will take a long time and a lot of diplomacy for things to return to normal.
Yes but that type of post is only going to attract comments from idiots who agree with it, its not representative I'd say. Mind you, there could be a completely different viewpoint on your side of the country
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Post by Big Blue on Oct 31, 2017 10:47:36 GMT
Down here in England we've forgotten the entire affair and most of the rest of the world assume Scotland is just a part of England as opposed to being another country.
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Post by Tim on Oct 31, 2017 11:13:06 GMT
Same as it ever was!
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