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Post by ChrisM on Sept 11, 2017 12:37:38 GMT
Predictions in the other thread please.
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Post by johnc on Sept 15, 2017 14:04:53 GMT
I just wonder if McLaren have made a mistake dumping Honda. Honda are a proud company and they will want to get this right so when everything finally clicks into place those Toro Rossos are going to be right up at the sharp end.
As for Ferrari's pace in practice - they surely have to be sandbagging. Just how much real pace do they have?
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Post by Tim on Sept 15, 2017 14:59:50 GMT
I'm with you on the Honda thing. If they've decided to commit to the future then they absolutely will make it work and next season will probably see big advances.
Hell, they might even do well for the rest of this season at which point McLaren will be kicking themselves severely.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2017 18:22:04 GMT
I reckon it is not too late to change their minds at some stage but cannot see it happening. It appears that Fernando's constant embarrassment comments and suggesting he will leave have struck home and Renault are likely to improve too. The McLaren has a good chassis and they could end up doing just as well as Red Bull which would move them right up the order.
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Post by ChrisM on Sept 15, 2017 20:21:33 GMT
Don't forget that Red Bull were very forthcoming in their criticism of the current hybrid Renault engine a few seasons back when it was down on power and Red Bull dropped down the grid as a consequence. Renault and Red Bull have shown more tolerance than McLaren and Honda but ultimately bth partnerships will soon end. Will be interesting to see how both the engine manufacturers improve (or not) over the next few seasons; I find it puzzling that even now, Honda are struggling to build a competitive power unit with all the expertise that they must have.
Let's not also forget that when Honda pulled the plug on their F1 tea, Ross Brawn led the buy-out and produced a championship-winning car. Would be fun to see the Honda engine power next year's champion and add salt into McLaren's wounds
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Post by ChrisM on Sept 16, 2017 20:36:10 GMT
Well, Red Bull didn't quite manage to hold onto fastest times. Maybe Ferrari, like M-B have a quali mode that gives them sufficient extra power to negate the RB's handling advantage.... except that M-B always seem to struggle at Singapore. Would have thought that by now, they would have worked out why.
I also find it odd that there is a 2 week gap until the next race in Malaysia... it's only a short flight between SIN and KUL (under an hour) so back-to-back races would have made much more sense IMHO. It would also have made the teams think twice about staying on European time in Singapore, would love to have seen how many would have chosen to put their body clocks on local time in Singapore and stayed that way for Malaysia, and how many would have adjusted between the races, but certainly for now, we'll never know.
Hopefully we will have a decent race tomorrow although with the limited overtaking opportunities, I somehow doubt it
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Post by humphreythepug on Sept 17, 2017 8:01:35 GMT
Will Max go for the lead, taking off Vettel?!
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Post by Ben on Sept 17, 2017 19:14:23 GMT
Will Max go for the lead, taking off Vettel?! Well...
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Post by ChrisM on Sept 18, 2017 7:26:51 GMT
Will Max go for the lead, taking off Vettel?! Well... R4 this morning.... John Watson seems to have a different view to everybody else. I think the speed at which it happened, none of the 3 involved really had any time to react. They each seemed to have made their minds up about their lines to the first corner, held them and Bang ! Interesting to watch Hamilton's line through the first few corners, seems he was one of very few to have noted where the puddles were from the Formation Lap, and took a line to avoid the worst of the standing water which certainly paid dividends, whether by luck or choice.
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Post by humphreythepug on Sept 18, 2017 9:01:34 GMT
Vettel didn't need to be so agressive, he was fighting Max, who isn't in contention for the championship, oh well, his loss and now Hamilton is a clear win ahead, going onto tracks which suit the Mercedes.
The championship is now Hamiltons to lose.
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Post by Martin on Sept 18, 2017 9:05:27 GMT
All down to Vettel imo and he's made things unnecessarily difficult for himself for the rest of the season and it would have been great to see him and Max racing Hamilton in those conditions.
Hamilton was in a class of his own again, great drive.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 18, 2017 9:12:26 GMT
I turned it off after the first corner incident after it became apparent that Seb wouldn't be able to continue. At least I saw Arsenal perform respectably at the Bridge.
Seb at "fault" for his aggressive start strategy; Kimi's start was unbelievable: he found traction where it wasn't and ultimately that led to the touch as Max looked to avoid contact with Seb. Had to feel for Alonso who made a fabulous start and took the outside line only to be collected by a wayward Kimi. I didn't fancy that anyone would get near Da Ham in the wet anyway and yes, fair play he should have one hand on the title now.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 10:20:29 GMT
I have not heard the result of the inquiry post race, having all three involved drivers and footage up the Yazoo they should have plenty of material for a decent result. Considering the number of points on Vettel's license, I think he should have a ban. He is SUPPOSED to be setting an example as a multiple champion but frankly he comes across as a spoilt brat. Vettel should have driven the first corner more conservatively due to the conditions. How can Ferrari deal with Vettel and the loss of points he caused them all?
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Post by Martin on Sept 18, 2017 10:36:45 GMT
The stewards put it down as a racing incident, no action taken.
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Post by Alex on Sept 18, 2017 11:40:27 GMT
The stewards put it down as a racing incident, no action taken. That's fine from the viewpoint that Ferrari and both their drivers have lost a massive amount of points and they now have two cars requiring significant repairs ahead of the next race. But it doesn't really compensate Max who was the innocent party who had his race taken from him on the first corner by the Ferrari's simply for getting a good start. I imagine Red Bull will be seething at that verdict.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 11:54:47 GMT
It does nothing to repair the reputation of F1 either, some drivers get punished for causing an accident, others get away with it. Tail, dog etc.
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Post by ChrisM on Sept 18, 2017 12:33:41 GMT
It does nothing to repair the reputation of F1 either, some drivers get punished for causing an accident, others get away with it. Tail, dog etc. Unfortunately some of the Press see it the other way, with the incident and all the hoo-haa surrounding it giving plenty of media time to F1 and promoting its popularity. I can't remember where I heard this but it was along the lines of: "Wet weather, a spectacular big crash in which nobody was injured but there was lots of damage, a big swing in title fortunes to a Brit, loads of publicity for the sport.... what more could you ask for?"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 12:49:35 GMT
What I could ask for is a consistent exemplar for drivers and not the ...."but it's OK if your name is Vettel" method. Time to demonstrate a little backbone and enforce the rules, when someone gets a minor slap on the wrist for this kind of conduct it makes the rules look pathetic and by inference, the sport/business/club for the boys.
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Post by Tim on Sept 18, 2017 13:08:14 GMT
Hold on though. The first point of contact during the accident was apparently Verstappen's left front wheel hitting Kimi's right rear. So Verstappen was behind Kimi but going left because Vettel was (stupidly) closing the gap. Why didn't he brale, or at least get off the throttle? I'm not saying it was his fault, just that he could've tried harder to avoid it happening. And I know it happens quickly but if they've got slow reactions then they shouldn't be there. I'm probably most annoyed because it means that Da Ham is going to win the championship
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 13:47:21 GMT
Raikonnen had a fantastic start and Max was justifiably trying to avoid Vettel. Seb should have made a less aggressive chop considering the conditions, he is after all not a rookie. Kimi was already ahead but overlapping Max when the contact happened. Basically there are two problems there, the inside was always going to close to Kimi but he put himself in that position while Max did not deviate from his line. Seb made an overly aggressive chop for the conditions. These are well seasoned competitors and had no excuse for taking Ferrari out of the race with stupid moves where time would have allowed the red cars to maintain the advantage over Mercedes. I do not think the championship is over by a long chalk but another day in the office like that for the Ferrari drivers will make the job harder than it needs to be. At this rate Ferrari would be better of chopping these two in for Max and Hulkenberg.
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Post by johnc on Sept 18, 2017 14:13:28 GMT
Having watched it a few times, I don't think Raikonnen would have made the corner the speed he was going and if he hadn't hit Verstappen, there is a very good chance that he would have T boned his team mate or pushed him way off to the right. A brilliant start by Kimi but there were two aggressive Ferrari drivers who both paid the price. It would have been much better to settle for position into the first corner and then work out a strategy to beat Red Bull if they led after the first corner.
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Post by Alex on Sept 18, 2017 14:47:03 GMT
Having watched it a few times, I don't think Raikonnen would have made the corner the speed he was going and if he hadn't hit Verstappen, there is a very good chance that he would have T boned his team mate or pushed him way off to the right. A brilliant start by Kimi but there were two aggressive Ferrari drivers who both paid the price. It would have been much better to settle for position into the first corner and then work out a strategy to beat Red Bull if they led after the first corner. I also thought Kimi could have moved left to avoid contact, it looks like both Ferrari's were aiming towards the same bit of track. Easy to make such judgements with the benefit of a reply mind.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 18, 2017 14:47:44 GMT
I think you're doing Kimi an injustice there: if he'd worked out the conditions and grip to the extent he could get off the line far better than anyone else he could have the same feel for the braking point.
I said above that Vettel's aggression was at fault but it was not a move requiring penalisation indeed my immediate Twitter reaction was that Max should have backed off: there's a red car ahead of him on his left and one on his right and the corner is approaching fast with the red car on his right closing the door on him. Of all three drivers he had the clearest view of all three cars as he was behind the other two and driving the third. Kimi didn't look like he was going to deviate his course at all once he'd chosen his (very fast and accurate) line and Seb was moving across the front of him. That we don't F1 drivers pussying out of a corner means "racing incident" was rightly called as no one driver was wholly at fault although if I were Kimi I'd be pretty pissed at Max and maybe at Seb too.
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Post by Ben on Sept 18, 2017 15:20:01 GMT
Basically it's like the F1 equivalent of three cars going into one merging lane and nobody wants to give way...
All three have some culpability to a certain extent, so I think "racing incident" seems about right.
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Post by johnc on Sept 18, 2017 15:48:04 GMT
Perhaps all tracks should make pole position on the same side as the inside of the first corner. To some extent that was the problem: if the pole sitter didn't manage to get far enough ahead of the second placed driver before the braking point, he was always going to be second into the first corner. Vettel's diagonal across the track was understandable but it was also the main cause of the accident.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 16:17:09 GMT
Max did all he could and was an innocent third party. Max has had his issues but frankly the weather/track conditions and the first corner rule should have seen both red cars being more circumspect. These are both world champions fcol, they have the experience to behave better and they did not. Kimi is guilty of a less serious offence than Seb but their idiocy took out an innocent Max and runed the race for everyone while costing their team big time. Racing incident? Not a chance.
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Post by Big Blue on Sept 18, 2017 21:41:57 GMT
What is it Kimi did other than get off the line in the wet better than Max? What's he supposed to do, think "ooh I've had a ragingly good start; I know I'll just back right off and let that guy on the outside line of the corner go ahead of me."? As I said, Max had the benefit of seeing the accident develop before the other two and being behind them had the best opportunity to avoid / prevent it. But Max is also a Racing driver so why would he back off? Seb was clearly the naughtiest of the three but again, he's the pole sitter and needs to get from the outside to the apex of corner one to assert his claim to place he earned as pole sitter. If we want to see drivers backing off from the green light motorsport is doomed!
Talking of the outside line, the reason pole place is on the outside line approach to the first corner is due, in part, to the start of the 1990 Japanese GP when pole was indeed moved to the inside line. Senna complained that the inside line has less grip as the racing line is on the outside line approach and vowed to "go for any gap" that materialised as a result of Prost getting the drive off the line.
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Post by Sav on Sept 18, 2017 22:42:33 GMT
For me the start was mainly a racing incident. It wasn’t like a one-on-one battle where someone deliberately swerved into someone. Vettel couldn’t have known that Raikkonen was fast accelerating to make it three-wide. I have no issue with Raikkonen’s move; it wasn’t overtly risky, he still had ample room to his left. It just unfortunate that Vettel started to move to the left, just as Raikkonen started to come slightly right. Verstappen was evidently watching Vettel, but Raikkonen’s start quite simply caught both of them out.
If one said that blame had to be apportioned, I would say that Verstappen was the most to blame. When cars are three-wide like that, the person in the middle never wins. I’ve seen this countless times in motorsport when they get three-wide a whole lot more, NASCAR and IndyCar. Especially in NASCAR on corner entry, the person on the inside can shove the middle car up the track. The car on the outside can take a less acute angle into the turn. The guy in the middle has no benefit; he can be squeezed, nudged, and will simply lose out. Raikkonen was coming fast, and Vettel didn’t exactly swerve ridiculously in the context of what we’ve seen at the starts in the past.
Verstappen is a fantastic talent, but I’m afraid there is a common denominator here. As Brundle said in commentary over the weekend, it doesn’t matter whose fault it is if you keep colliding, you lose. Verstappen was a bit naughty with Vettel at Silverstone, collided with Ricciardo at Spa, collided with Massa at Monza, and collided again at Singapore. Race craft isn’t just about overtaking and defending at any cost. It’s about having the foresight and intelligence to realise when something will go wrong, and backing out and trying again on the next lap. Alonso is the best at this, and even Hamilton who used to unnecessarily stick his nose in where it wasn’t wanted has developed a more cautious way of racing, whilst still remaining aggressive. I'm not saying that Verstappen should roll out the red carpet and start dithering over passing. However, with some of his recent collisions, it’s been blatantly obvious what will happen.
If we want to start a conversation about this European blocking and chopping, we can do so. However, it would be unfair to target one driver’s slight swerve at the start, because it happens frequently through the field. If one watches the start of the 2011 Japanese GP, Vettel’s block on Button was wholly unacceptable. Imo, the direction from Charlie Whiting is slightly skewed here. Whiting takes the view that blocking and swerving at the start is more acceptable, because of the added adrenaline and unusual situations that drivers experience at the start. I can concur with that to a degree; however, with all the over-zealous stewarding over the years, it is surprising that the more blatant chopping hasn’t been penalised.
Presumably Verstappen is hot property, but with the Scuderia? Verstappen collided with both Ferrari’s at Spa last year, he had handbags with Vettel at Mexico last year, they again collided at Silverstone, and of course Singapore occurred. If the rumours that Verstappen has already signed some sort of agreement with Ferrari come true, would he become the teammate of Vettel? Oh dear!
Hamilton judged the whole race so well. His start was great, immediately passing Ricciardo. He must have seen the smashed up cars of Raikkonen and Verstappen. It would have been very easy in that situation to drive over-cautiously and slow down, to avoid getting clouted. However, as in many forms of racing, try to shoot for a gap and get out of the mess behind. It so almost worked for Alonso; it was a shame to see him get spun. He tried to continue, but naturally, the data read-outs weren’t too great with a mangled sidepod and the floor torn-up.
Hamilton’s pace on worn intermediates was outstanding. I couldn’t really understand why Mercedes didn’t pit Hamilton after the second Safety Car period. It turned out he didn’t need new tyres, he still comfortably dropped Ricciardo once again on the restart. The race pace of the Mercedes was very strong on Friday, so it wasn't surprising to see Hamilton lighting up the sectors on a dry track. It would have been interesting to see Ricciardo's pace without his gearbox issue, but even before that, the extent of the Mercedes pace over Red Bull was surprising, after the latter were so good on Friday.
Palmer deserves credit for his drive in Singapore. He overtook a much faster Mercedes in those changeable conditions and didn’t put a wheel wrong. If he had demonstrated that raw pace and race pace earlier in the year, perhaps Renault would have retained him.
I’m not sure about the Honda switch to Toro Rosso. On the one hand, Toro Rosso will have lower expectations, they don’t expect to win. On the other hand, the pressure of McLaren demanding a winning power unit should have resulted in Honda making whatever changes necessary, including transferring all development in the UK. I maintain that Honda made the terrible error of developing the unit in Japan, not utilising the best talent in the UK from the outset. Sadly, it is very hard to catch up with these current engine regulations. And even if Honda do catch up, with the token system gone, Mercedes and Ferrari can more freely develop even more powerful engines for 2018. So matching the benchmark 2017 engines won’t be good enough, but are Honda heading anywhere near that, and reliably?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 23:43:10 GMT
Move of the race for me? Palmer swapping cars with Hulkenberg without anyone noticing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 4:12:08 GMT
Kimi had the best view of those involved. Max was concentrating on Seb making a way over the top chop. The red cars and in particular Seb were at fault this time, saying that Max has had previous so he must be the guilty party is extremely generous to Ferrari To say that Ferrari lost two probable high points scores including a probable win so have paid enough is over simplification. When Max is over the top as he has been I am happy to see him get a slap from the law givers but to get a slap for something not his fault is frankly being all twin cheaks about it.
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